Electro Magnetic Pulse

[AirborneRob]

Im doing a rework of my first character concept for HERO and unfortunately have lost the old notes i had for him. He is a fusion of Human and Nanotechnology with one ability i cant emember how to build: EMP. It is one of the technology disruption abilities that he had and im finding that several powers could potentially get the job done. Transform, CE, Entangle.... I am leaning somewhat in the direction of a Transform What do you folks think?

[Yansuf]

Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

 

I would think dispell is more appropriate.

Dispell technology based on solid state electronics.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

 

Yeah, I'd go either Dispel or an energy-based RKA with an Affects Electronic Devices Only Limitation (probably -2 in value). Ironically the RKA will probably be a lot more efficient/affordable since you'll have to buy the kind of Powers affected by the Dispel up as an Adjustment Power (all electronic-based powers at once is going to be a +4 Advantage on Dispel, so it'll cost at least 15 AP/die!!!). The RKA will also affect Vehicles, and will only have to do 2/5 the Active Points of the largest power in a Focus in Body damage (see 6E1 p. 379) to destroy it. The RKA will, of course, also cost 15 AP/die. The difference will come in when other Advantages (such as Area of Effect) are added in, but it sure seems like it's going to have to be a lot to overcome RKA's head start (especially because the RKA will be able to take the significant "Limited Power" Limitation mentioned above, whereas the Dispel is already limited to affecting a particular set of SFX).

 

Wow. When did Adjustment Powers get nerfed so badly? Huh.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

 

I agree that a Killing Attack is the most straightforward way to go - EMPs can 'kill' devices, not just KO them, so:

 

EMP Explosion: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Area Of Effect (16m Radius Explosion; +1/4), Indirect (Source Point can vary from use to use, path is from Source Point to target; +1/2), Penetrating (x2; +1) (41 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only affects electronic components; -1), No Range (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Doesn't work against EMP hardened devices; -1/4) (14 Real points)

 

That produces a 16m radius explosion that goes through walls and such (the indirect) and does 3 Body damage on average - even 1 point should destroy most electronic circuits. If you think that an EMP should only temporarily KO rather than destroy a device, just add an appropriate Limited Power.

 

The difficulty is that this could be a very cheap way to KO an automaton robot with 20 BODY - if you can kill the brain, you don't have to destroy the Body.

 

Now a lot of devices an EMP could affect will be focuses, so ANY damage to a focus can KO its powers, and that is dandy - but not everything will be defined as a focus. If you are not willing to handwave it (and you need to be very careful about handwaving it), then an adjustment power (drain all electronic based powers?) or a transform work BUT will be expensive to affect a lot of potential targets.

 

Another possibility is to do it with Change Environment or even Images to generate the EMP, and make sure that electronic devices are all built with a physical complication 'damaged by EMPs'.

 

That last way is, in many ways, the best - that is how electronic devices actually work.

[AirborneRob]

Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

 

Yeah' date=' I'd go either Dispel or an energy-based RKA with an [i']Affects Electronic Devices Only[/i] Limitation (probably -2 in value). Ironically the RKA will probably be a lot more efficient/affordable since you'll have to buy the kind of Powers affected by the Dispel up as an Adjustment Power (all electronic-based powers at once is going to be a +4 Advantage on Dispel, so it'll cost at least 15 AP/die!!!). The RKA will also affect Vehicles, and will only have to do 2/5 the Active Points of the largest power in a Focus in Body damage (see 6E1 p. 379) to destroy it. The RKA will, of course, also cost 15 AP/die. The difference will come in when other Advantages (such as Area of Effect) are added in, but it sure seems like it's going to have to be a lot to overcome RKA's head start (especially because the RKA will be able to take the significant "Limited Power" Limitation mentioned above, whereas the Dispel is already limited to affecting a particular set of SFX).

 

Wow. When did Adjustment Powers get nerfed so badly? Huh.

 

Lol, when a Dispel power needs 15 AP/die to affect electronics, that's pretty bad. I guess i could see it in a Sci-fi game where technology based adversaries are common. This would be set in modern times so 15 AP/die dispels....not so much. I could keep it to around a 2d6 RKA Affects Electronic Devices Only ( per your recommendation ), Cone AoE up to maybe a +1 value, and Penetrating so it can still affect those systems that have been hardened (no pun intended) against EM interference. My big issue with Dispel is that it doesn't give me the impression of permanency.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

 

Shouldn't NND be applied to the Killing Attack version?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

 

Shouldn't NND be applied to the Killing Attack version?

How much ED is the target likely to have? Hold an electronic device over an open flame for a moment, and how likely is it to keep functioning? Seems like this kind of thing should be kept in mind when building such things. Additionally, a Breakable Focus has ED equal to 1/5 the Active Points in its largest power (and optionally is destroyed completely if it takes double that), so it's not like a RKA is going to have to be HUGE to affect it.

[Greywind]

Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

 

Keep in mind electronic items that are not currently powered usually are not adversely affected by EMPs. A vehicle that wasn't on when the EMP detonated can be started once the effect has passed.

[AirborneRob]

Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

 

Keep in mind electronic items that are not currently powered usually are not adversely affected by EMPs. A vehicle that wasn't on when the EMP detonated can be started once the effect has passed.

 

Absolutely correct

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

 

I usually do a Penetrating Energy RKA that only affects powered electronics.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

 

Keep in mind electronic items that are not currently powered usually are not adversely affected by EMPs. A vehicle that wasn't on when the EMP detonated can be started once the effect has passed.

That's not necessarily true. Integrated circuits can be damaged whether on or not. Being powered normally when the pulse hits may or may not make a difference; certainly current operation can be disrupted whether or not a device is actually destroyed, but if no actual damage is done a reset may help just as much as the device being off when it was hit. Whether your vehicle depends too much on complex circuits vulnerable enough to be damaged by the pulse is another question. Magnetic storage devices such as hard disks and EEPROM (flash memory and such) could also be messed up pretty badly even if not in use, so there goes your data, operating system, embedded programs stored in devices, etc.

[JmOz]

Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

 

A Flash vs Radio should be included as well

 

Having said that I do prefer the RKA method, I think dispel is just wrong for the effect, even though there is some crowbaring to make it work.

 

an AF onto it is also appropriate, as you will be effecting more than one power in some foci (by RAW, you would only knock out one system in a poewr suit for instance with the above build)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

 

an AF onto it is also appropriate' date=' as you will be effecting more than one power in some foci (by RAW, you would only knock out one system in a poewr suit for instance with the above build)[/quote']

Well, any attack that does more than a Focus' PD/ED knocks out one power. Optionally, any attack that does double its PD/ED destroys it completely.

 

A Focus is destroyed when it loses all of its powers' date=' or when any single attack against it does two times (2x) its PD/ED in BODY, at the GM’s option.[/quote']

[Tasha]

Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

 

Shouldn't NND be applied to the Killing Attack version?

 

I was thinking of a AVLD (AVAD in 6e) vs Power Defense. Because it is possible to "harden" electronics vs EMPs

[Tasha]

Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

 

That's not necessarily true. Integrated circuits can be damaged whether on or not. Being powered normally when the pulse hits may or may not make a difference; certainly current operation can be disrupted whether or not a device is actually destroyed' date=' but if no actual damage is done a reset may help just as much as the device being off when it was hit. Whether your vehicle depends too much on complex circuits vulnerable enough to be damaged by the pulse is another question. Magnetic storage devices such as hard disks and EEPROM (flash memory and such) could also be messed up pretty badly even if not in use, so there goes your data, operating system, embedded programs stored in devices, etc.[/quote']

 

That makes no sense. From what I have read about it. EMP works through the properties of induction. So you would either need an active current running in the circuit or a magnet that is close enough to said circuit. A live circuit IS a live magnet (though in many cases a VERY weak one). So a dead circuit SHOULD be completely safe from EMP.

 

Now Hard Drives work by magnetizing a small spot on the platter of a metalic disk. So it's possible that there would be huge data loss. EEPROMs(Electronically Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory), and Flash Memory should be pretty resistant to EMP for the same reason an unpowered circuit is. ie No current, no induced current that exceeds the specs of the circuit. Also Flash drives and EEPROMs don't seem to be effected by strong magnets (ex in cases where said magnet induces a current in the device while it is on, ie don't wave strong magnets in front of live circuitry).

 

Also, I doubt that a playable superheroic being has the ability to cause an EMP that is as strong as an Airburst Nuke's EMP. So the damage to circuitry in those cases are easy to shield against, and limited more or less to those items that are turned on, or are connected to live power lines (assuming that said powerlines were targeted by the EMP attack).

[AirborneRob]

Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

 

I set it up as a 2d6 RKA, Cone AoE 32m, Penetrating. That will take care of most electrical systems that will be encountered and Hack ( My Character) will also have a few abilities that affect the machine class of minds like Mental Blast. I wont limit myself to just 1 or 2 abilities and want to make sure that i do have more than one way to skin the machine cat For the record no cats, normal or machine were harmed in the typing of this post.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

 

EMP works because there is an electric potential generated by the blast wave, so any conductor will have current flowing through it and the amount depends on the orientation to the blast front. A big enough EMP would electrocute a human. A big enough current flowing through a conductor can melt it even if it is not 'on', but stuff with current flowing through it at the time of the EMP will usually be affected more.

 

Also note that the effect of the EMP depends where you are - an EMP is more effective in a 'dense' magnetic field.

 

However that actual practical side of it probably doesn't matter much - what do we want this EMP to do in this game?

 

KO computers? Switch off all electrics? Destroy power armour?

 

The problem with Hero is that an electrical device can be built in MANY different ways - probably the only way to get them all is a drain keyed to electronics SFX. That will be expensive though.

 

The problem with an 'electronics targeted KA' is what do you use as the Body total - say you want to take out a fighter jet is the relevant Body 1 or 2 (the electronics) or 20-25 (the whole plane)?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

 

That makes no sense. From what I have read about it. EMP works through the properties of induction. So you would either need an active current running in the circuit or a magnet that is close enough to said circuit. A live circuit IS a live magnet (though in many cases a VERY weak one). So a dead circuit SHOULD be completely safe from EMP.

 

Now Hard Drives work by magnetizing a small spot on the platter of a metalic disk. So it's possible that there would be huge data loss. EEPROMs(Electronically Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory), and Flash Memory should be pretty resistant to EMP for the same reason an unpowered circuit is. ie No current, no induced current that exceeds the specs of the circuit. Also Flash drives and EEPROMs don't seem to be effected by strong magnets (ex in cases where said magnet induces a current in the device while it is on, ie don't wave strong magnets in front of live circuitry).

 

Also, I doubt that a playable superheroic being has the ability to cause an EMP that is as strong as an Airburst Nuke's EMP. So the damage to circuitry in those cases are easy to shield against, and limited more or less to those items that are turned on, or are connected to live power lines (assuming that said powerlines were targeted by the EMP attack).

 

A changing magnetic field will induce an electric current in as simple a component as a loop of wire with absolutely no pre-induced current or potential difference (voltage) required. In fact, some AC motors are built such that induced eddy currents on a metallic core will provide enough of a magnetic field to produce torque in the externally generated field. Every electronic component in existence is going to have a bit of inductance, and is going to be subject to strong electromagnetic signals to some degree. Whether induced currents and voltages (of a given strength) actually damage the component is a matter of the amount of inductance, the amount of resistance, and the materials out of which the component is made.

 

As for whether a superhero could generate an effective EMP, it's going to be a matter of range. The intensity of the signal will drop off with the square of the distance. Nuclear explosions create EMPs that can damage electronics at very long range. Devices that generate EMPs electrically have a much shorter range, but at that short range they can be as effective as the nuke at long range. I don't see why a superhero couldn't generate a pulse that would do some measurable damage at limited human-scale ranges.

[Tasha]

Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

 

All of the stuff I have read about EMP talks about the massive Magnetic Pulse. True that in a Nuclear EMP like half the energy of the Gamma Rays are converted to Electrons, but those are dissipated by the atmosphere before they can effect anything directly. Those Electrons cause the magnetic waves.

 

I can see a human being electrocuted by one because the small amounts of electricity that is always moving through our body causes a slight magnetic field that interacts with the incoming EMP to induce a huge amount of electricity in our body.

 

For those who don't know it electricity is generated when 2 magnetic fields interact with one another. That's how Alternators and Generators work. That's why waving a magnet in front of a CRT can be fatal or dangerous.

 

Also the strong EM1 from a Nuclear Blast and the side effect EM2 (ie the earth's magnetic field bouncing back to equilibrium) aren't currently attainable with anything less than a nuke (and one that is tuned to cause one at that. It seems that most staged nuclear blasts cancel out much of the EMP). So a Dead circuit shouldn't have enough of a magnetic field to have a current induced in it. Otherwise keeping parts around would be pretty worthless.

----

 

Beyond all of this stuff about "realism" and what EMP does and doesn't do is the fact that as a GM I would be very uncomfortable with this power. This has "Stop Sign" written all over it IMHO. It seems like a player who wants the ultimate Focus destroyer and has found the perfect excuse, um, special effect to write this monstrosity up. As a GM wanting to balance games and wanting to have Technological obstacles for the players, I would say NO to the RKA. Even though technically it is the "realistic" writeup. I would say that the better more game balanced way to write up such a power is to use Dispel. That will allow the Player to turn off most tech with an average roll and not be able to dominate Villains who spent a ton of points for their foci. Also this fixes the issues that Sean brought up with trying to figure out how much body the Electronics has in a given car, plane etc.

[AirborneRob]

Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

 

Lol, ok folks, let me be clear on something here. The original concept back in the day was a character who has immense control over electrical and electro-magnetic forces, being that im not a scientist nor a electrical engineer i took some creative license when writing these ideas up. He, as a character, was given abilities that allowed him to generate various electrical effects and one was also to allow him to be a Hacker of great skill. As my knowledge of the system grows, so too does my desire to create power concepts. A limited EMP, human scale, is not what i consider a show stopper for the fact that there is currently no campaign to play in at the moment that revolves around a majority of Tech adversaries. This was intended to affect small items, PC's, Generators, things like that. Yes i was aware that it could effectively shut down automobiles, but really that didn't concern me since most encounters he played in didnt have alot of vehicular traffic mingled into them. He has this power as a cone effect of up to 32m. He is not shuting down city blocks, cities, airforce bases and certainly not military aircraft which at 32m would effectively have to be on the ground for him to reach. Lol, i dont want to sound like im biting someones ear off, just to try to smooth some concerns about the EMP as a viable power.

[Ice9]

Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

 

Dispel doesn't seem particularly suited, cost issues aside, because it produces a very temporary effect. If your car gets fried by EMP, you can't start driving it again just by spending a half-phase action to re-activate it.

RKA actually seems the most accurate in that regard as:

A) The device is permanently disabled. But ...

It can be repaired, at the normal rate.

 

The only problem is the Electronics vs Structure issue. On the one hand, it makes sense that you can fry the electronics of a car without physically destroying the entire thing. On the other hand, I don't think most people would allow a "Nervous System Zapper" that dealt BODY damage directly to the brain, circumventing any armor or physical toughness.

 

Transform is a possible alternative. However, of the things it should affect, some have BODY, some have INT, and some just have Active Points. You'd need a bit of kludging to get it working.

[AirborneRob]

Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

 

Dispel doesn't seem particularly suited, cost issues aside, because it produces a very temporary effect. If your car gets fried by EMP, you can't start driving it again just by spending a half-phase action to re-activate it.

RKA actually seems the most accurate in that regard as:

A) The device is permanently disabled. But ...

It can be repaired, at the normal rate.

 

The only problem is the Electronics vs Structure issue. On the one hand, it makes sense that you can fry the electronics of a car without physically destroying the entire thing. On the other hand, I don't think most people would allow a "Nervous System Zapper" that dealt BODY damage directly to the brain, circumventing any armor or physical toughness.

 

Yea, Dispel is not a go to power for this concept. Keeping in mind that an EMP does just that, it attacks electronics directly ignoring structure as a rule. Systems that are hardened vs EMP have little to no chance to be destroyed depending on the magnitude of the pulse and how much protection the target has. So for this 2d6 cone with Penetrating, most " civilian " equipment could probably be affected but the systems on let's say Air Force One would not. I dont deny that it can be a very effective ability depending on intent but at its current scale and the GM designing his/her encounters accordingly for the groups abilities, should not be a real issue. I had the same power in that campaign way back when and we had no issues with this character running amok. More to the point, we were not encountering Tech adversaries often and i was fine with that. It was a small scale ability that was used once in a while and only as needed

[Nevenall]

Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

 

If you Dispel a power that's bought with a Focus you break that focus so it will require repairs.

Plus you only really need to buy AOE and Variable Effect +1/2 to affect every electronic device in an area.

If a focus has multiple, individual not frameworked, electronic powers you would technically only dispel one of those powers, probably the one with the largest active points, but I believe the focus would still be broken and the other powers unusable.

Just a thought.

[Naanomi]

Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

 

I like a Transform (severe) with Partial Transformation, with the 'healing condition' being appropriate repairs.

 

Thus the EMP has the potential to completely shut down things, or just impair their functioning if you don't roll enough BODY... cinematic EMP seems to have the capability of doing both. It has the added benefit of already using Power Defense (which seems appropriate to me), AND only affecting electronics (IE: Limited Target) is more clearly identified... no paying extra like the dispel!

 

The RKA is definitely a good way to go as well though.

[AirborneRob]

Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

 

If you Dispel a power that's bought with a Focus you break that focus so it will require repairs.

Plus you only really need to buy AOE and Variable Effect +1/2 to affect every electronic device in an area.

If a focus has multiple, individual not frameworked, electronic powers you would technically only dispel one of those powers, probably the one with the largest active points, but I believe the focus would still be broken and the other powers unusable.

Just a thought.

 

Agreed, if a focus is broken, thats game until its fixed. I'll keep it as a RKA though since the EMP technically "kills" the electrical device unless repaired/replaced.