VPP Opinions

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Just for the record, how many people out there allow limitations on Cosmic power pool powers? If the character can simply change the power as a zero phase action, at will, to change or remove the limitations, how Limiting are they?

 

If the character has some uncertainty or time requirement for the change, I'd be more inclined to put some value on the limitations, but when he can just revise (or remove) the limitations when they become incnvenient, that's not really a limitation at all.

 

For the record, depends...

 

- if the limitation is on the whole VPP and applies to every power (i.e., to be clear, no power can be invoked without having to obey the lim), yes

 

- although, as you saw, I will have (and have always had) some change restrictions, the "cosmic" version where you can change things but I still require a "migration" if you will (or similar penalty), I am allowing lims at half value IF they are real lims (e.g., focus if, when the focus is lost, they can't reclaim those powers back)

[Gary]

Originally posted by Zed-F

You said:

 

 

and

 

 

 

Why would I want to do that, however? Of course, I could, but what would be the point? Do I really need to be able to summon *anything* with 250 points of effect? Or do I really want to be able to summon a number of specific things at that level?

 

A 50 AP summon-only VPP costs 87 points (per your numbers) and allows any one summoning power up to 50 AP. All well and good. I could as easily buy a 50 AP Multipower and 3 50 AP summon slots for 65 points. That should let me cover off most summoning needs I have, or if not I can always add another slot or two for 5 points each. If I get tired of summoning, I can add more slots to do other stuff. After all, how many creatures do I really want to design and submit for GM approval? I can even summon *anything*, with the +1 advantage, in a single slot, for 5 points, so long as the total effect is 50 AP or less.

 

Your solution, Gary, would be to *require* VPP guy to have that +1 advantage. That will absolutely not suit. In that case, VPP guy would be limited to having exactly the same effect as that last single MP slot, without any of the other slots, and pay substantially *more* for it. No way would I play that character in your game if you were to enforce that kind of a restriction.

 

I would require that advantage if it were part of a larger vpp such as magic only, and if the vpp can be easily changed in combat. If the person bought summon only as his vpp, I probably wouldn't enforce the restriction.

 

Originally posted by Zed-F

It gets worse when we tack on limitations. Suppose we add an OAF Staff to both cases. Now we have a 50 AP VPP that costs 70 CP, and can have 2 summons present in the pool at once, compared with a multipower that costs 25 CP plus 2 CP per power. I can buy an *awful* lot of summons at 2 CP a pop plus a bunch more non-summon powers before I get anywhere near 70 CP, plus be able to swap between them as a 0 phase action with no skill roll required (which would be a +2 advantage on the VPP, increasing its cost to 110 CP). The fact that I can only summon one thing at a time with the multipower is pretty much irrelevant because summons stick around after they are summoned, and how many things is the GM going to allow me to summon at once anyway? Besides, if it's really an issue, it's not that difficult to buy up that reserve to 100 points for another 25 CP and still cost substantially less than the VPP.

 

What you seem to be arguing is that the +1 advantage is so expensive that nobody would ever want one. And you have to pull limitations in to make your comparison because at the straight level, your arguments hold no water. And if you have limitations, they will be used against you. That OAF staff means that a decent amount of the time, you won't have the power.

 

Incidentally, I already factored in the +2 advantage with my costs.

 

vpp cosmic (+2) summon/transform only (-1) 87 pts

vpp cosmic (+2) attacks only (-1/2) 100 pts

vpp cosmic (+2) magic only (-1/4) 110 pts.

 

Originally posted by Zed-F

VPPs are fine the way they are. You do NOT need to add a +1 modifier to be able to change its slots to anything; the whole raison d'etre for a VPP is *because* you can change its slots to anything. I wouldn't object too strenuously if the GM wanted to impose a variable SFX for +1/4, but anything beyond that would destroy the inherent value of a VPP.

 

How about for a transform or change environment where you want to have multiple options available in combat? How many slots in a multipower do you need to do all the things you want to do? A 50 pt multipower would only be allowed to have 7-8 slots before it spends as many pts as a vpp summon/change environment/transform only. And the only way to do better is to stick limitations on it which weakens your power.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

Warning, math errors again. If you have a 100 pt multipower with 10 slots, it costs 200 base points and 100 with OAF. Not 75. You need the full 100 pts to be able to summon anything, or transform to anything, or change environment anything, or to place variable special effects advantage on your attacks. And you're assuming that a 100 pt multipower will be allowed in the first place.

 

That assumes your slots are all full power. In the example above, the character has a 100 point pool and 10 slots esch of 50 AP (5 points each). Total cost = 100 + 50 = 150 /2 = 75. This probably wasn't clear enough.

 

Originally posted by Gary

And if you apply OAF to so many points, you're really putting yourself in danger. The trouble with taking hefty limitations, is that they are limitations. They make your powers less useful.

 

No question. However, we are comparing a VPP with an OAF and a multipower with an OAF, so the examples are each at equal risk.

 

Gary, does anyone ever take a limitation in your campaigns? Given the damage you feel they would do, I am surprised a -1/4 limitation for "drain one drain all" is acceptable to you. A -1/2 saves 1/3 (and you feel based on your OIF comments should mean the power is unavailable 1/3 of the time), but -1/4 saves 1/5, so logically the power should be totally drained 1/5 of the time to make the limitation fair from a points saved perspective.

 

Actually, it should be drained 1/5 of the time PLUS however much time it would be drained without the limitation. Maybe it should be partially drained about half the time. Seems like a lot of negative adjutsment powers to me.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by zornwil

- if the limitation is on the whole VPP and applies to every power (i.e., to be clear, no power can be invoked without having to obey the lim), yes

 

My point was directed at limits on powers, not on the pool. I agree if it must be on every power, it's a real limit. They could also, say, put Variable Limit on the pool and have the same apply to every power.

 

Originally posted by zornwil

- although, as you saw, I will have (and have always had) some change restrictions, the "cosmic" version where you can change things but I still require a "migration" if you will (or similar penalty), I am allowing lims at half value IF they are real lims (e.g., focus if, when the focus is lost, they can't reclaim those powers back)

 

Here, I agree because the power pool is not, in my mind, "cosmic" - it cannot be changed instantaneously, so there is a limit from limitations. Whether I would discount the cost for this change restriction (a form of extra time to change) I don't know - he's not getting the full Cosmic benefit.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

[bHow about for a transform or change environment where you want to have multiple options available in combat? How many slots in a multipower do you need to do all the things you want to do? A 50 pt multipower would only be allowed to have 7-8 slots before it spends as many pts as a vpp summon/change environment/transform only. And the only way to do better is to stick limitations on it which weakens your power. [/b]

 

Yes, there is a point at which the additional flexibility is cheaper through a VPP than a Multipower. Given you don't value additional flexibility much when discussing EC's vs Multipowers, how did it suddenl;y become so much more valuable here?

 

A "normal" cosmic VPP costs 125. That's only 15 slots in the Multipower, and I can think of WAY more than 15 useful 50 point powers. Plus, the Multipower can only ever have one slot active, where the VPP can mix and match smaller powers. If limitations were allowed, it could even have more than 1 50 point power up at a time, but I don't like Limitations on Cosmic VPP's as they go away when they become inconvenient. [Hmmm...maybe activation, side effect or increased END as they have some real effects; could be some others.] Seems to me that "change environment only" is already pretty limitong as compared to the unlimited cosmic pool.

[Zed-F]

Originally posted by Gary

What you seem to be arguing is that the +1 advantage is so expensive that nobody would ever want one. And you have to pull limitations in to make your comparison because at the straight level, your arguments hold no water.

 

As I mentioned elsewhere, if you want a multipower without a common restriction across all slots & the reserve, you are probably trying to use the wrong power framework, or at least not taking full advantage of the strengths a Multipower provides. Multipowers are, IMHO, constructed specifically for use with a common limitation; that is one of a Multipower's strengths. A VPP is best suited for no common limitations at all on the powers in the pool, though I will often limit individual slots to taste. An EC is in-between the two in terms of desirability of common limitations across the framework.

 

The fact that a VPP seems better in comparison to a MP when there are no limitations in play does not mean my arguments "hold no water." What, do characters never take limitations in your games? How dull! If that's the case, you're missing out on a lot of great roleplaying opportunites -- after all, if a player has built his character sensibly so that they still have useful abilities even when deprived of their foci or otherwise under the influence of their limitations, a decent GM will ensure that the character has an opportunity to contribute. This is both in genre and only sensible from a point of view of keeping the player involved in the game. Having limitations is not a catastrophe; far from it! I should have thought it would be obvious you have to compare both with and without limitations in order to get a full picture. Apparently not.

 

Even so, I don't agree that a 50 point MPP with no limitations, where I can buy ANYTHING IN CONCEPT for 5 points, is inherently worse than a 87 point cosmic VPP, wherein the only thing I can do is summon, or transform, or change environment. A summon, transform, or change environment will not answer in many situations, and if the player is using the summon or transform to mimic the effects of other powers (e.g. transforming nothingness into body armour, or summoning something that acts as a personal shield for the summoner) then the GM should be talking to the character about removing the -1 limitation on the control cost. In that case we would be comparing a 50 point cosmic VPP with NO limitation on the control cost (125 points), versus a 50 point multipower and 5 points per slot.

 

And if you have limitations, they will be used against you. That OAF staff means that a decent amount of the time, you won't have the power.

Well duh. The same applies for a VPP guy who takes OAF Staff on the control cost of the pool. That's neither here nor there, it applies across the board.

 

How about for a transform or change environment where you want to have multiple options available in combat? How many slots in a multipower do you need to do all the things you want to do? A 50 pt multipower would only be allowed to have 7-8 slots before it spends as many pts as a vpp summon/change environment/transform only. And the only way to do better is to stick limitations on it which weakens your power. [/b]

If *all* you want is to be able to transform stuff, great, go ahead and spend 87 points on it. Considering that the GM is going to enforce that -1 limitation to prevent you from overstepping the boundaries of what you can reasonably be expected to acheive with transform, i.e. no making body armour & blasters on a regular basis, or carting them around with you once you have them, I don't think it's unbalanced even if you can change it every phase for a 0-phase action. The 50-point multipower even without limitations can provide defense, movement, and other utility powers in addition to transforms.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Zed-F

A VPP is best suited for no common limitations at all on the powers in the pool, though I will often limit individual slots to taste.

 

A VPP with limits can also work nicely. The limited multipower costs less points, and the VPP with limited powers can do more things at the same time.

 

But the three frameworks each have their own strengths and weaknesses, as you say. Pick the one that best suits the objectove and run with it. Against one another, they're pretty balanced.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Just for the record, how many people out there allow limitations on Cosmic power pool powers? If the character can simply change the power as a zero phase action, at will, to change or remove the limitations, how Limiting are they?

 

If the character has some uncertainty or time requirement for the change, I'd be more inclined to put some value on the limitations, but when he can just revise (or remove) the limitations when they become incnvenient, that's not really a limitation at all.

 

I do, if the limitation is meaningful. My standard limits on VPPs are posted elsewhere in this thread.

 

If John Firestaff has a fire blast that requires his Staff of Flaming OAF he gets the full -1; he also has no other fire blast in his aresenal, and very likely no other energy blast at all, though that's something I'd discuss with the player. If John takes a -1/2 variable limit on his Fire Blast, he can pick from a list of meaningful -1 limits. If he has 23 separate energy blasts, I probably wouldn't allow much in the way of limits on any of them, unless the same limits applied to all.

[Zed-F]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

A VPP with limits can also work nicely. The limited multipower costs less points, and the VPP with limited powers can do more things at the same time.

 

But the three frameworks each have their own strengths and weaknesses, as you say. Pick the one that best suits the objectove and run with it. Against one another, they're pretty balanced.

 

I should qualify -- I will sometimes consider a small limitation on the control cost. The problem is you hit diminishing returns much more quickly with these since you cannot reduce the reserve cost, so I would typically put on the minimum limitation that is consonant with the conception. If I'm paying a whack for the reserve anyway, I'm not going to skimp too much on the control cost; the decrease in flexibility is generally not worth the small return in points. With a multipower, the converse is true; a significant limitation on the whole power nets you a LOT of points, so it's definitely worth it.

 

I would probably never build a summoning only VPP. The -1 on the control cost is not worth the severe restriction in the kinds of powers available. It's easy enough to expand that up to a -1/2 limitation which might get you a reasonable selection of base powers to work from. Even on the 50-point cosmic power pool example that only costs an extra 13 points, which is not a big deal when you're paying 87 points to start with.

 

I'm also not a huge fan of cosmic power pools, but I don't play in high-enough-powered games to justify them; if I were playing in a 600-plus-point game I might be more tempted. I would likely be more willing to consider larger limitations on a cosmic pool since the point savings is correspondingly larger. However, a regular VPP with a control roll to take a phase or otherwise take a turn to change a power is sufficient for most of my characters, who mainly use VPPs to support their main powers rather than as a main power. If I take a look at OddHat's character Style, which has a cosmic VPP as his main power on a 350-point character, he had to include a number of uncontrolled powers in his VPP in order to get his defenses & movement abilities up to a reasonable level. While some of those kinds of powers may be useful or even necessary in order to be able to be reasonably effective in combat when the character hasn't got much in the way of offense or defense outside his VPP, as in Style's case, there is a limit to how much a GM will let a player get away with that sort of thing.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Zed-F

I'm also not a huge fan of cosmic power pools, but I don't play in high-enough-powered games to justify them; if I were playing in a 600-plus-point game I might be more tempted. I would likely be more willing to consider larger limitations on a cosmic pool since the point savings is correspondingly larger. However, a regular VPP with a control roll to take a phase or otherwise take a turn to change a power is sufficient for most of my characters, who mainly use VPPs to support their main powers rather than as a main power. If I take a look at OddHat's character Style, which has a cosmic VPP as his main power on a 350-point character, he had to include a number of uncontrolled powers in his VPP in order to get his defenses & movement abilities up to a reasonable level. While some of those kinds of powers may be useful or even necessary in order to be able to be reasonably effective in combat when the character hasn't got much in the way of offense or defense outside his VPP, as in Style's case, there is a limit to how much a GM will let a player get away with that sort of thing.

 

In Style's case I ended up reconfiguring his spells a bit (based on feedback from you and Hugh) and puting most of his defenses outside of the pool, most noteably Power Defense, Mental Defense, Luck, Combat Luck, and Regeneration with the resurection option.

 

The rules set favors the Offensive Framework + Defensive Framework configuration for flexible characters; that said, it is possible to build a fairly combat effective 350 point VPP only character. He'll still never be as effective in combat as the multiple framework build, but character concept counts for quite a lot in most campaigns.

[Farkling]

And that's why I still dislike multiple frameworks...

 

GM recieves character sheet

 

"Hmmm....here's the attack framework....here's the defense framework"

 

turns sheet over

"and here's the micellaneous powers and the skills. It matches up quite nicely with the other four characters, although I see you used two Multipowers...noboidy else did that."

 

 

Bah.

Hey Hugh...no wonder Gary wouldn't consider a VPP for his oft quoted Batman...that +1 control cost advantage would make even the 1/4, 1/2 EC limitations he proposed cheaper. I wonder if that's why there's so much concern over getting rid of the free points in the EC.

 

The VPP doesn't have any free points...but is infiniely more flexible...but repeated argurments here AND in the EC thread leads me to believe that flexibility doesn't count for much in Gary's universe.

 

Each can play his own way I guess.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Farkling

Hey Hugh...no wonder Gary wouldn't consider a VPP for his oft quoted Batman...that +1 control cost advantage would make even the 1/4, 1/2 EC limitations he proposed cheaper. I wonder if that's why there's so much concern over getting rid of the free points in the EC.

 

The VPP doesn't have any free points...but is infiniely more flexible...but repeated argurments here AND in the EC thread leads me to believe that flexibility doesn't count for much in Gary's universe.

 

Each can play his own way I guess.

 

Well, flexibility for choice of powers counts for little. But you can't have any limitations, so flexibility for use of powers is imperative.

 

Given Gary sees a need to further limit VPP's, considers characteristics underpriced and thinks EC's are overly generous, perhaps he should instead look at making Multipowers cheaper - they seem the "odd framework out" in his world view.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

That assumes your slots are all full power. In the example above, the character has a 100 point pool and 10 slots esch of 50 AP (5 points each). Total cost = 100 + 50 = 150 /2 = 75. This probably wasn't clear enough.

 

 

 

No question. However, we are comparing a VPP with an OAF and a multipower with an OAF, so the examples are each at equal risk.

 

Gary, does anyone ever take a limitation in your campaigns? Given the damage you feel they would do, I am surprised a -1/4 limitation for "drain one drain all" is acceptable to you. A -1/2 saves 1/3 (and you feel based on your OIF comments should mean the power is unavailable 1/3 of the time), but -1/4 saves 1/5, so logically the power should be totally drained 1/5 of the time to make the limitation fair from a points saved perspective.

 

Actually, it should be drained 1/5 of the time PLUS however much time it would be drained without the limitation. Maybe it should be partially drained about half the time. Seems like a lot of negative adjutsment powers to me.

 

Almost nobody takes greater than -1/2 limitations on their main attack or defensive powers.

 

Do large numbers of people in your world take -1 or greater limitations on their main attack or defensive powers?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Farkling

The VPP doesn't have any free points...but is infiniely more flexible...but repeated argurments here AND in the EC thread leads me to believe that flexibility doesn't count for much in Gary's universe.

 

Each can play his own way I guess.

 

Flexibility counts for a lot, just like in any world. However, with a multipower, you're paying for that flexibility. Each additional bit of flexibility costs you more points. Points that you're not spending to increase dex/spd or more powerful attacks.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Yes, there is a point at which the additional flexibility is cheaper through a VPP than a Multipower. Given you don't value additional flexibility much when discussing EC's vs Multipowers, how did it suddenl;y become so much more valuable here?

 

It becomes more valuable because for transforms, change environments, and summons, it normally costs a +1 advantage to have total flexibility. For most attack powers, it normally costs a +1/2 advantage to be able to have total flexibility in variable special effects. I don't like the fact that someone could buy a more useful power cheaper through vpps.

 

I'm not penalizing all vpps. I'm only penalizing vpps that:

 

1) Are easy to change in combat.

 

2) Have a "large" selection of powers.

 

It's fairly devastating to be always be able to pull out the right attacks at the right time. To be able to use the fire EB vs the cold character, the water EB vs the fire character, or the wind EB vs the gaseous character. Hero values this flexibility at +1/2. Therefore if your easily changed vpp could fire only one type of EB, you can use full dice. If it can fire a narrow range of EBs, you pay a +1/4. If it can fire any EB, it should pay a +1/2.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

A "normal" cosmic VPP costs 125. That's only 15 slots in the Multipower, and I can think of WAY more than 15 useful 50 point powers. Plus, the Multipower can only ever have one slot active, where the VPP can mix and match smaller powers. If limitations were allowed, it could even have more than 1 50 point power up at a time, but I don't like Limitations on Cosmic VPP's as they go away when they become inconvenient. [Hmmm...maybe activation, side effect or increased END as they have some real effects; could be some others.] Seems to me that "change environment only" is already pretty limitong as compared to the unlimited cosmic pool.

 

If the vpp is change environment only, I wouldn't have any problems with it. If it's any magic special effect, then the restrictions would apply.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary

Flexibility counts for a lot, just like in any world. However, with a multipower, you're paying for that flexibility. Each additional bit of flexibility costs you more points. Points that you're not spending to increase dex/spd or more powerful attacks.

And you're paying a fraction of the full cost. One would think this would bother you.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Zed-F

As I mentioned elsewhere, if you want a multipower without a common restriction across all slots & the reserve, you are probably trying to use the wrong power framework, or at least not taking full advantage of the strengths a Multipower provides. Multipowers are, IMHO, constructed specifically for use with a common limitation; that is one of a Multipower's strengths. A VPP is best suited for no common limitations at all on the powers in the pool, though I will often limit individual slots to taste. An EC is in-between the two in terms of desirability of common limitations across the framework.

 

The fact that a VPP seems better in comparison to a MP when there are no limitations in play does not mean my arguments "hold no water." What, do characters never take limitations in your games? How dull! If that's the case, you're missing out on a lot of great roleplaying opportunites -- after all, if a player has built his character sensibly so that they still have useful abilities even when deprived of their foci or otherwise under the influence of their limitations, a decent GM will ensure that the character has an opportunity to contribute. This is both in genre and only sensible from a point of view of keeping the player involved in the game. Having limitations is not a catastrophe; far from it! I should have thought it would be obvious you have to compare both with and without limitations in order to get a full picture. Apparently not.

 

How many characters in your world actually take -1 or greater in limitations on their main attacks or defenses?

 

Originally posted by Zed-F

Even so, I don't agree that a 50 point MPP with no limitations, where I can buy ANYTHING IN CONCEPT for 5 points, is inherently worse than a 87 point cosmic VPP, wherein the only thing I can do is summon, or transform, or change environment. A summon, transform, or change environment will not answer in many situations, and if the player is using the summon or transform to mimic the effects of other powers (e.g. transforming nothingness into body armour, or summoning something that acts as a personal shield for the summoner) then the GM should be talking to the character about removing the -1 limitation on the control cost. In that case we would be comparing a 50 point cosmic VPP with NO limitation on the control cost (125 points), versus a 50 point multipower and 5 points per slot.

 

Is there any reason in your world to ever take the +1 advantage on summon, change environment, or transform? Or to buy the +1/2 variable special effect advantage?

 

 

Originally posted by Zed-F

Well duh. The same applies for a VPP guy who takes OAF Staff on the control cost of the pool. That's neither here nor there, it applies across the board.

 

Which is why almost nobody ever takes OAF staff on a cosmic VPP in superheroic campaigns. And almost no PCs, at least in my world, take it on their big attack multipower. PCs sometimes have guns or bows, but they either OIF it, or have a decent backup attack.

 

Originally posted by Zed-F

If *all* you want is to be able to transform stuff, great, go ahead and spend 87 points on it. Considering that the GM is going to enforce that -1 limitation to prevent you from overstepping the boundaries of what you can reasonably be expected to acheive with transform, i.e. no making body armour & blasters on a regular basis, or carting them around with you once you have them, I don't think it's unbalanced even if you can change it every phase for a 0-phase action. The 50-point multipower even without limitations can provide defense, movement, and other utility powers in addition to transforms.

 

How about comparing it to the 100 pt attacks only version or 110 pt magic only version?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X

And you're paying a fraction of the full cost. One would think this would bother you.

 

And you're getting a fraction of the full usefulness.

[Zed-F]

How many characters in your world actually take -1 or greater in limitations on their main attacks or defenses?

It depends on the conception. Typical range is between -1/2 and -1 for most focus-based characters. Certainly most weaponmasters will have an OAF weapon. They will also have martial arts so they are not helpless when they get disarmed. Often they will have several different foci with different sets of powers associated. A powered armour character -- usually -1/2 for most characters, but could be more depending on the conception. A battlesuit would not likely be an OAF, but could be an OIF with additional restrictions, such as an additional "drain one drain all" on a particular SFX, or "uncommon restrainable" limitation. Even so, my powered armour characters will usually have some combat abilites not purchased on the armour, e.g. martial arts or a gadget pool. Similar for a focus-based mystic -- usually the focus will be OIF, but it could have some additional limitations on it depending on conception.

 

For non-focus characters, it's often harder to come up with a large limitation that applies to the majority of their powers. You could go with RSR/Side effects for a mystic character, for example, but then to get into the -1 range you usually need a substantial side effect. You'll have to clear the side effect with the GM as well, and the GM may have a different idea of what a suitably severe side effect than you do is. Still, it can be done; again see OddHat's Style character for an example (including a discussion of the severity of the side effect.)

 

Is there any reason in your world to ever take the +1 advantage on summon, change environment, or transform? Or to buy the +1/2 variable special effect advantage?

Depends on how you want to buy the power, and what exactly you are trying to do. With the sample multipower above, I outlined a character that could summon 3 (or more) different specific things at full effect, plus a slot that had the +1 advantage, and thus could summon any correspondingly weaker creature. That would seem quite reasonable to me. I can easily see any number of situations where an incidental helper could be useful. However, those incidental helpers don't necessarily need to be built on the same number of AP as your most powerful summons, as they are summoned to fill a specific need, and thus you usually won't need them once that need is filled anyway. The same can be said for summoning specific beings. How many AP of effect do you really need to summon policeman Bob?

 

Which is why almost nobody ever takes OAF staff on a cosmic VPP in superheroic campaigns. And almost no PCs, at least in my world, take it on their big attack multipower. PCs sometimes have guns or bows, but they either OIF it, or have a decent backup attack.

I wouldn't take OAF staff on the control cost of a cosmic VPP either. Big limitations like that tend not to mix well with VPPs; they are better suited to multipowers. As I mentioned, I commonly see really big multipowers with a limitation in the -1/2 to -1 range, though not usually with an OAF but through a combination of other limitations. Collections of smaller multipowers are often include candidates for an OAF. I tend to see more OAF + backup attack than taking an OIF on a by-default-accessible focus.

 

How about comparing it to the 100 pt attacks only version or 110 pt magic only version? [/b]

An attacks only VPP would be a -1/4 lim according to FREd, so also 110 points. I'm not certain that a magic-only VPP even qualifies for a -1/4 limitation -- it's listed as a sample -1/4 limitation, but (a) according to the VPP description you're supposed to have a common SFX for your VPP anyway, and ( none of the examples in FREd include a limitation for being a "gadget pool" or a "magic pool." Someone who wanted to take a -1/4 lim on their VPP just for having a common SFX would have to convince me why it was a limitation first.

 

At 110 points, the VPP is paying a fairly hefty premium for its flexibility. A 10d6 variable SFX EB would be 75 AP. Even continuing to ignore limitations, I could boost my multipower to 75 AP and still have not too much problem paying for slots with that kind of points to work with -- and I could put a 15d6 EB in there if I wanted. Or I could buy quite a few 50 AP slots for that kind of points.

 

Doesn't seem to be terribly unbalanced. Yes, the VPP has a ton of flexibility. But he has to pay a LOT of points to get it. Would I choose the VPP or the MP for my character? That would depend on what my conception was, and whether I thought I could fulfill as visualized it within my points budget.

 

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Zed-F Yes, the VPP has a ton of flexibility. But he has to pay a LOT of points to get it.

 

Another comment on the flexibility "problem": It isn't always a problem. It depends on campaign type and power level, character concept and how the character will work in the team. A 60 point VPP with clearly defined SFX and GM defined limits, even a cosmic 60 point VPP, is not going to allow its user to overshadow team mates or unballance the campaign if the rest of the team has 90 active point powers.

 

In pure combat terms infinite flexibility isn't that much of a bonus; a multipower user can easily exceed the combat potential of a VPP user unless you intentionally stack the deck in favor of the VPPer. Yes, Doc Summoner can summon absolutely anything up to 300 points with his 105 point cosmic Summon Only VPP. The multi-power using Conjureman could take the same 105 points and build himself 5 350 point summoned minions; in practical terms he has almost as much flexibility, more power, same total points. Add limitations into the picture and things shift even more to the multipower user; as has been pointed out repeatedly, he gets more points back for the limits he takes.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

Flexibility counts for a lot, just like in any world. However, with a multipower, you're paying for that flexibility. Each additional bit of flexibility costs you more points. Points that you're not spending to increase dex/spd or more powerful attacks.

 

Which is why many of us view the VPP as the ultimate evolution of the Multipower. At some point, it becomes equal to have a VPP (infinite flexibility) rather than a multipower.

 

At lower than "cosmic", you trade off flexiobility (number of options) for flexibility (ease of switching between options).

[Hugh Neilson]

First, Gary says:

 

Originally posted by Gary

It becomes more valuable because for transforms, change environments, and summons, it normally costs a +1 advantage to have total flexibility. For most attack powers, it normally costs a +1/2 advantage to be able to have total flexibility in variable special effects. I don't like the fact that someone could buy a more useful power cheaper through vpps.

 

He adds some discussion about variable special effects on attack powers.

 

Then he says:

 

Originally posted by Gary

If the vpp is change environment only, I wouldn't have any problems with it. If it's any magic special effect, then the restrictions would apply.

 

Gary, first you say you DO have a problem with Change Envronment and they should have the +1 advantage, then you say Change Environment is not a concern. Do you mean that you would not impose the +1 advantage requirement if the VPP can onl;y have Change Environments?

 

If so, wouldn't this logically also apply to the "summon only" VPP you were saying ewas too cheap without such a restriction in the first place?

 

Maybe I'm reading too fast - does anyone else out there see this inconsistency?

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by OddHat

In pure combat terms infinite flexibility isn't that much of a bonus; a multipower user can easily exceed the combat potential of a VPP user unless you intentionally stack the deck in favor of the VPPer. Yes, Doc Summoner can summon absolutely anything up to 300 points with his 105 point cosmic Summon Only VPP. The multi-power using Conjureman could take the same 105 points and build himself 5 350 point summoned minions; in practical terms he has almost as much flexibility, more power, same total points. Add limitations into the picture and things shift even more to the multipower user; as has been pointed out repeatedly, he gets more points back for the limits he takes.

 

In fairnes, "Summon Only" is a terrible VPP to limit anyway. The real benefit of limiting VPP powers is having more powers active at the same time. With Summon, who cares? Call them up and move along!

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

In fairnes, "Summon Only" is a terrible VPP to limit anyway. The real benefit of limiting VPP powers is having more powers active at the same time. With Summon, who cares? Call them up and move along!

 

Summon Only would be a control cost limit; it wouldent reduce the number of points taken up in the VPP by the power (which may be what you meant anyway; I'm posting in a sleep deprived state right now).

 

I agree that it's a limit that should be looked at very closely. My main concern would be someone getting the point break on the Summon Only VPP and then summoning an amicable wish granting Djinn or witch...

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by OddHat

Summon Only would be a control cost limit; it wouldent reduce the number of points taken up in the VPP by the power (which may be what you meant anyway; I'm posting in a sleep deprived state right now).

 

I agree that it's a limit that should be looked at very closely. My main concern would be someone getting the point break on the Summon Only VPP and then summoning an amicable wish granting Djinn or witch...

 

No, I mean what would be the point of placing limits on the Summon? In many VPP's, I may consider putting limitations on the powers. For example, if I have an 80 point VPP, I can have 2 60 point powers if I put -1/2 limits on them (60/1.5 = 40 x 2 = 80). With Summon, who cares? Summon your creatures and, if you want something else, reconfigure the points and summon something else. Taking the old Summon power out doesn't the creatures you already summoned away.