VPP Opinions

[zornwil]

As the campaign has gone on, a couple characters now have gotten into VPPs. That's fine with me, both are justified in my book. For me, in the past, I never had more than one PC at a time with one (at least of any substance) so even though that campaign got high-powered it still was not much of an issue to think of. But as we grow and from general past history (as well as the efficiency of 1 of the 2 players in building powers frankly), I know the potential for issues in terms of:

 

- ensuring expectations from the GM and player match up about just how flexible VPPs can really be

- ensuring players don't always have the right power for every occassion; it's just not genre-correct

- ensuring the VPP is consistent and defined enough that it has weaknesses

 

I don't want to get into a discussion of whether they should or should not have them (though I will tell you the 2 players have VERY different gigs, one is a shape-shifter and the other is a mage), and I don't want to get into a discussion about specific players and VPPs. I'm more interested in what works overall for everyone who has had more than one PC with a VPP (or just a PC with a very big VPP, sort of the same thing) and reasonably high-powered characters.

 

EDIT - just wanted to add, rhe rest just describes my OWN take on VPPs and how I'm house-ruling to enforce that. You don't need to read it to respond, so you can just respond now if you don't feel like reading a lot, as this goes on a bit.

 

My current house rules on VPPs (not currently on my site but will be there shortly) include the following

 

- require that they have some sort of weakness (something an agency or government could overcome but not a regular person or smaller group of people - implying the need for high tech or esoteric approaches).

 

- changing powers must have some "evolutionary" basis - you can't change straight from fire to ice (for example); if you do, it really goes fire to a fiery/icy mix (and if someone's SFX counters one, it'll halve it for instance) and then to an icy mix. Basically, this ensures that SFX don't vary too "conveniently".

 

- for VPPs which are very easy to change in combat (GM discretion as to what qualifies for that), limitations generally count for 1/2 value if they do limit the power but are not based on the control cost innately making all powers have the limitation - basically this relates of course to the fact that limitations on powers in VPPs are very easy to shift for convenience

 

- because of the ability to stack a way lot on defenses or offenses, if the VPP is switched around DURING combat between these categories the power gets a little Side Effect or Vulnerability (bigger if the change is more dramatic) at GM discretion; this aberration "X" PC phases, where x = the number of real points shifted divided by 10 (e.g., if you shift 60 EB to 60 Damage Reduction, the aberration would last 6 phases)

 

- any NND attacks or similarly powerful SFX-based powers created in a VPP must have a weakness or side effect or similar based on the characteristics of the VPP or PC. For example, if a mage makes an NND attack of cold frostbitten weather (defense = wearing cold weather gear or being heated) in addition to the normal NND weakness there might be "Side Effect: Makes Main Character x1.5 Vulnerable to Heat Attacks" as his body cools down to withstand casting the spell and any attack of heat on him creates more system shock.

 

Fortunately the players are pretty mature so it's not that I'm expecting them to deliberately abuse the construct - I'm more concerned that they and I be on the same page, so I created the above rules to give a better idea to the players how I view VPPs working (as well as part of the exercise of me thinking more about it). Well, also I did aim for some specific changes/refinements in VPPs to enforce their internal consistency. I don't think VPPs should allow for all sorts of superimposed SFX ("sure, but being a mage I can cast any sort of thing, it's not going to manifest as magic as the magic is only what creates the thing, right?) so I encoded much of that into formal house rules.

 

I'm not suggesting that the core rules should do this. I'm just flavoring to MY taste.

 

Anyway - what sorts of things do you guys do, among those who've experienced significant high-powered VPP play?

[OddHat]

My VPP house rules don't tend to be quite as restrictive, and vary from campaign to campaign. That said, I ran a "Hidden Magic" campaign using 4th ed that was very VPP heavy, and I found the following house rules to be useful:

 

1) Spells must be researched. Want to design new spells? Buy appropriate science skills (SS: Type of Magic) and Inventor. Otherwise you're restricted to a set group of spells taught to you by your mentor.

 

2) If you have a Cosmic VPP and absolutely must come up with a new spell right now instead of submitting it in writing before play begins, it must take a flat 11 or less activation roll, 0 DCV concentration and a full phase of Extra Time. This still doesn't lift the "must be researched" limit. It just means that you're figuring it out on the spur of the moment. Later research will lift those limits.

 

3) Genre and Special Effects limits strictly enforced. A Voodoo Bokur does not shapeshift (except in the Dreamlands) or throw lightning (except in the Dreamlands). A Spirit Warrior of Shango doesn't read minds. I allowed a -1/4 limit for this, but I didn't allow any VPPs for PCs without that -1/4.

 

4) No building the same power twice with different limits, unless Variable Limitation is part of the power. If your "Shango's Fist of Lightning" requires your Amulet of Shango, you can't swap it out for Increased End cost.

 

5) Variable special effects requires point expenditure. You can build as many different Prawna Blasts as you like (AOE:1 Hex / AP / NND / Whatever). If you want a Fire Blast and an Ice Blast, you either have to research and write them up separately or pay for the VSE advantage.

[Lord Liaden]

For PCs with open-ended VPPs (mages and some cosmic characters), I start by having them write down a list of their most commonly used Powers with game mechanic writeups, and giving me a copy of it so that we can both refer to it. The list can be as long as the player wants - it's just handy to speed up the process of deciding what Powers to use. However, I enforce a one minute time limit for the process of changing Powers: if they can't decide what Power(s) to change their Pool to within one minute of real-world time, they forfeit their action for that Phase.

 

If a player wants to create a new Power for his VPP, he can do so automatically by researching/practicing in between his character's adventures (and add it to his list). If he wants to do that during a game session, though, he'll have to make a Skill Roll for an applicable Knowledge, Science or Professional Skill. I assign Modifiers to the roll for conditions and time taken, and allow Complementary Skills. Once the character has made his roll successfully, he can use that Power freely in any subsequent Phase and add it to his list.

 

One Limitation from past published Hero books that I've found useful is "Known Powers Only" (-1/4 to the Control Cost). That limits the VPP to only the Powers that the player has written up and listed in advance, although his character can add to the list between adventures as usual. The list can still be as long as the player wants, but I require that the player not refer to it during the game; if he forgets that he has a particular Power in his VPP, so does his character.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

However, I enforce a one minute time limit for the process of changing Powers: if they can't decide what Power(s) to change their Pool to within one minute of real-world time, they forfeit their action for that Phase.

 

To me, this is pretty generous (ie a pretty lengthy period). Taken to the extreme, this 5 speed character adds 5 minutes to every turn of combat.

 

I expect players to pretty much have their actoions figured out when their phase rolls around (remembering that their phase is roughly 2-3 seconds long). Waiting a minute for someone to decide what they're going to do in combat is excessive. A few seconds, sure.

 

If the character wants to design a new power on the fly, it had best be simple enough (or a slight enough variant from an existing power) that he can do so without slowing the game. If he can't, I guess he's delayed his phase while figuring out how to effect this new variant on his powers.

 

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

The list can still be as long as the player wants, but I require that the player not refer to it during the game; if he forgets that he has a particular Power in his VPP, so does his character.

 

I have no problem with the player referring to such a list during the game - it speeds up the proces dramatically. If, on the other hand, he's spending considerable time reading it when he should be making his action, I guess he's just overwhelmed with all the possibilities, and has delayed his phase.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

To me, this is pretty generous (ie a pretty lengthy period). Taken to the extreme, this 5 speed character adds 5 minutes to every turn of combat.

 

I expect players to pretty much have their actoions figured out when their phase rolls around (remembering that their phase is roughly 2-3 seconds long). Waiting a minute for someone to decide what they're going to do in combat is excessive. A few seconds, sure.

 

If the character wants to design a new power on the fly, it had best be simple enough (or a slight enough variant from an existing power) that he can do so without slowing the game. If he can't, I guess he's delayed his phase while figuring out how to effect this new variant on his powers.

 

I agree with all of the above. That length of time to decide is a rare occurence in my games, and I would talk with a player who was doing it often outside of game time to try to correct the situation. My rule is just for those occasional moments of true indecision - after all, losing a Phase is a rather stiff penalty to a player during combat and the like.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I have no problem with the player referring to such a list during the game - it speeds up the proces dramatically. If, on the other hand, he's spending considerable time reading it when he should be making his action, I guess he's just overwhelmed with all the possibilities, and has delayed his phase.

 

I don't have a problem with list consultation either - as I mentioned, it simplifies things greatly. If the player wants to take "Known Powers Only" as a Limitation on his VPP, though, I just ban list consultation as a way to make the Lim count, since I don't restrict the number of Powers he can have in it otherwise. Certainly YMMV.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

I agree with all of the above. That length of time to decide is a rare occurence in my games, and I would talk with a player who was doing it often outside of game time to try to correct the situation. My rule is just for those occasional moments of true indecision - after all, losing a Phase is a rather stiff penalty to a player during combat and the like.

 

I'd enforce a delayed phase rather than a lost phase, but your point remains valid. And it likely wouldn't be enforced until it has become a problem (just as you would enforce more harshly if something became a problem), si we're probably pretty close here.

 

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

I don't have a problem with list consultation either - as I mentioned, it simplifies things greatly. If the player wants to take "Known Powers Only" as a Limitation on his VPP, though, I just ban list consultation as a way to make the Lim count, since I don't restrict the number of Powers he can have in it otherwise. Certainly YMMV.

 

I hadn't considered this in the context of the limitation. I might consider allowing it anyway on the basis it prevents having "the right power for every occasion", but I could see requiring a buyoff if the list provided the "anything and everything" VPP.

 

I generally prefer a -1/4 (or higher as appropriate) limitation for identification of those things the specific VPP cannot do. I think it's critical to have the parameters of the VPP defined up front so both player and GM know what can be expected. If the player is looking for a true "cosmic do anything" pool, fine - he's paying some pretty hefty points for the privilege, and as long as he doesn't bog the game down with indecision, it should not become a problem. That said, I've never seen anyone who was prepared to pay 2.5x the pool cost for a large cosmic VPP, and experience could crtainly change my mind.

[Gary]

If VPPs are being abused, one suggestion would be that easily changed VPPs substitutes instead of adds to existing abilities. For example, a character with 20 str and a 50 pt vpp would have to put 21 pts from the vpp before it becomes useful. Putting his entire vpp into str would result in a 50 str, not 70. Similarly, a character with 15" flight would only get 25" flight if the entire pool was in flight, not 40".

 

This cheap "aid" is one of the most abusive things about standard vpps. If he wants aid, he should buy it through the pool.

 

Another thing is to require a vpp to pay additional costs if they have flexibility. For example, if the player only has 1 special effect for an EB in his vpp, he can get it as usual. If he has the ability to use fire, ice, lightning, etc, then all his EBs must have the variable advantage on them. Similarly, if he could use the vpp to transfrom targets to anything, he must pay for a +1 advantage. If he can summon one specific type of summon, it's normal. If he can summon anything, he has to take a +1 advantage on any summons built through the pool.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

Another thing is to require a vpp to pay additional costs if they have flexibility. For example, if the player only has 1 special effect for an EB in his vpp, he can get it as usual. If he has the ability to use fire, ice, lightning, etc, then all his EBs must have the variable advantage on them. Similarly, if he could use the vpp to transfrom targets to anything, he must pay for a +1 advantage. If he can summon one specific type of summon, it's normal. If he can summon anything, he has to take a +1 advantage on any summons built through the pool.

 

Wow, you don't like VPP's much do you (Gary and I disagree on a power framework issue...there's a new one ? )

 

I guess that +1 advantage for summoning/transforming will offset the -1 limitation for a pool that can only be used for summon/transform quite nicely.

 

Only Fire Powers is a -1/2 limitation, but we'll make it even more expensive not to restrict the VPP by requiring "variable special effect" if he wants more than one special effect.

 

Now, I would definitely restrict any character taking that -1/4 "magic only" limitation to have Magic as his only special effect - that's why he got a limitation in the first place. But an "unlimited" VPP should not be limited in terms of SFX - that's one of the specific limiting factors which can be applied to VPP's.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Wow, you don't like VPP's much do you (Gary and I disagree on a power framework issue...there's a new one ? )

 

I guess that +1 advantage for summoning/transforming will offset the -1 limitation for a pool that can only be used for summon/transform quite nicely.

 

Only Fire Powers is a -1/2 limitation, but we'll make it even more expensive not to restrict the VPP by requiring "variable special effect" if he wants more than one special effect.

 

Now, I would definitely restrict any character taking that -1/4 "magic only" limitation to have Magic as his only special effect - that's why he got a limitation in the first place. But an "unlimited" VPP should not be limited in terms of SFX - that's one of the specific limiting factors which can be applied to VPP's.

 

Summon any 250 pt creature. 50 base points with +1 advantage for 100 total points

 

50 pt VPP

 

Control cost Cosmic (+2) only for summons (-1) 37 pts.

 

87 pts total. Hmm, what is wrong with this picture.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

Summon any 250 pt creature. 50 base points with +1 advantage for 100 total points

 

50 pt VPP

 

Control cost Cosmic (+2) only for summons (-1) 37 pts.

 

87 pts total. Hmm, what is wrong with this picture.

 

Clearly the +1 advantage must be overpriced.

[Zed-F]

Originally posted by Gary

Summon any 250 pt creature. 50 base points with +1 advantage for 100 total points

 

50 pt VPP

 

Control cost Cosmic (+2) only for summons (-1) 37 pts.

 

87 pts total. Hmm, what is wrong with this picture.

 

What is wrong with this picture is that you have completely neglected to take limitations on the power into account. The VPP guy pays 87 points for all summons, regardless of how many lims he puts on them; all the lims do is let him have more summon powers in his pool at once. OTOH, if all I want is to be able to summon any one 250-pt. creature, I can put as many lims as I like on the standard power and get it much more cheaply. Or, I can put it in a Multipower(!) and get it for at most 10 points (in an ultra slot) and STILL pile on the limitations.

 

Don't compare apples and tractors.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by OddHat

My VPP house rules don't tend to be quite as restrictive, and vary from campaign to campaign. That said, I ran a "Hidden Magic" campaign using 4th ed that was very VPP heavy, and I found the following house rules to be useful:

 

1) Spells must be researched. Want to design new spells? Buy appropriate science skills (SS: Type of Magic) and Inventor. Otherwise you're restricted to a set group of spells taught to you by your mentor.

 

2) If you have a Cosmic VPP and absolutely must come up with a new spell right now instead of submitting it in writing before play begins, it must take a flat 11 or less activation roll, 0 DCV concentration and a full phase of Extra Time. This still doesn't lift the "must be researched" limit. It just means that you're figuring it out on the spur of the moment. Later research will lift those limits.

 

3) Genre and Special Effects limits strictly enforced. A Voodoo Bokur does not shapeshift (except in the Dreamlands) or throw lightning (except in the Dreamlands). A Spirit Warrior of Shango doesn't read minds. I allowed a -1/4 limit for this, but I didn't allow any VPPs for PCs without that -1/4.

 

4) No building the same power twice with different limits, unless Variable Limitation is part of the power. If your "Shango's Fist of Lightning" requires your Amulet of Shango, you can't swap it out for Increased End cost.

 

5) Variable special effects requires point expenditure. You can build as many different Prawna Blasts as you like (AOE:1 Hex / AP / NND / Whatever). If you want a Fire Blast and an Ice Blast, you either have to research and write them up separately or pay for the VSE advantage.

 

Great suggestions. Actually these seem more restrictive to me than my own, I will "bank" these along with others - I just had to comment that you seemed more restrictive - but it's all to taste, this is not a criticism. I do really like your method.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I'd enforce a delayed phase rather than a lost phase, but your point remains valid. And it likely wouldn't be enforced until it has become a problem (just as you would enforce more harshly if something became a problem), si we're probably pretty close here.

 

 

 

I hadn't considered this in the context of the limitation. I might consider allowing it anyway on the basis it prevents having "the right power for every occasion", but I could see requiring a buyoff if the list provided the "anything and everything" VPP.

 

I generally prefer a -1/4 (or higher as appropriate) limitation for identification of those things the specific VPP cannot do. I think it's critical to have the parameters of the VPP defined up front so both player and GM know what can be expected. If the player is looking for a true "cosmic do anything" pool, fine - he's paying some pretty hefty points for the privilege, and as long as he doesn't bog the game down with indecision, it should not become a problem. That said, I've never seen anyone who was prepared to pay 2.5x the pool cost for a large cosmic VPP, and experience could crtainly change my mind.

 

My only problem with this thread (not just your message Hugh) of delays and taking time in combat penalizing a PC is that the PC may have a vast INT (and with a VPP is way more likely to) whereas the humble player of course doesn't. I don't disagree with the spirit at all of what you're saying - the game needs to keep moving and it is equally problematic to have the play overthought - just pointing out something that should be accounted for.

 

However, again, I appreciate these contributions.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by zornwil

My only problem with this thread (not just your message Hugh) of delays and taking time in combat penalizing a PC is that the PC may have a vast INT (and with a VPP is way more likely to) whereas the humble player of course doesn't. I don't disagree with the spirit at all of what you're saying - the game needs to keep moving and it is equally problematic to have the play overthought - just pointing out something that should be accounted for.

 

To my mind, they already receive much of this advantage (so does everyone else though) in that 12 seconds of chaotic combat are laid out neatly on the map for them to take in at their leisure and decide their next move.

 

Players are also generally allowed input from other players, where their characters would lack that luxury.

 

One option is to take the Tactics skill for tactical geniuses, and allow them added leeway as a result.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by zornwil

Great suggestions. Actually these seem more restrictive to me than my own, I will "bank" these along with others - I just had to comment that you seemed more restrictive - but it's all to taste, this is not a criticism. I do really like your method.

 

Restrictive is in the eye of the beholder.

 

I like your system as well. Here was my take on it:

 

1) Requires a weakness. Fair dinkum: I see this as true of every character. Even Kiniku the Muscle Man can be pumped full of sedatives designed to work with his bio-chem.

 

2) Evolutionary changes. Here you are less restrictive. Your point.

 

3) Reduced value for limits. I prefer a pre-defined group of permitted limits at full value, especially as that lets the same lists be used by Multipower Mages and VPP mages of the same type. If I did go the reduced value route, I'd prefer to give some kind of break on the control cost. On the other hand, I give full value for limits but don't allow them to be varied once the power is defined.

 

4 & 5) Required Side Effects. Unless this is part of how magic always works in your campaign, I see this as restrictive. The VPP Ice Mage shouldn't be at even more of a disadvantage compared to the Multipower Ice Mage. The VPP mage has already paid more points. If he at least gets points back for the side effects (say a -1/4 limit to the control cost, or the side effects reduce the cost of the power) then I'd feel less uncomfortable with it. I do something similar (required limits by magic type) but the mage gets the value of those limits, and the Multipower Mages of the same type are playing by the same rules.

 

That said, I do see the logic behind this.

 

I'll be interested in seeing the house rules you settle on.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by OddHat

Restrictive is in the eye of the beholder.

 

I like your system as well. Here was my take on it:

 

1) Requires a weakness. Fair dinkum: I see this as true of every character. Even Kiniku the Muscle Man can be pumped full of sedatives designed to work with his bio-chem.

 

2) Evolutionary changes. Here you are less restrictive. Your point.

 

3) Reduced value for limits. I prefer a pre-defined group of permitted limits at full value, especially as that lets the same lists be used by Multipower Mages and VPP mages of the same type. If I did go the reduced value route, I'd prefer to give some kind of break on the control cost. On the other hand, I give full value for limits but don't allow them to be varied once the power is defined.

 

4 & 5) Required Side Effects. Unless this is part of how magic always works in your campaign, I see this as restrictive. The VPP Ice Mage shouldn't be at even more of a disadvantage compared to the Multipower Ice Mage. The VPP mage has already paid more points. If he at least gets points back for the side effects (say a -1/4 limit to the control cost, or the side effects reduce the cost of the power) then I'd feel less uncomfortable with it. I do something similar (required limits by magic type) but the mage gets the value of those limits, and the Multipower Mages of the same type are playing by the same rules.

 

That said, I do see the logic behind this.

 

I'll be interested in seeing the house rules you settle on.

 

SO FAR, I'm STARTING with the ones I posted BUT I'm pretty aware I may need some "plan B" options and that also there are certainly people out there with good contributions. I really liked your list a lot, and am considering if I want to do some shifting now so stay tuned.

 

In particular, I really liked your usage of Variable Advantages, very very well-thought out and logical. I'm thinking of adding that in, along with what follows below, as part of dropping the "evolutionary" requirement.

 

Regarding #2, I think it's too tough in terms of the actual specific restrictions (to me, in a superhero game - as opposed to fantasy - coming up with different manifestations on the spot is half the idea of a VPP), but I like the spirit of it quite a bit. I could see me doing it more like 14/less, half phase, -2 or similar DCV, and throwing out my "evolutionary" method, just adjusting the 14/less roll up or down according to how bizarre or sensible a chagne it is. I realize that's way more generous than yours, but still pretty beefy in its own right. I'd use your method in a fantasy game though.

 

These combined could also replace my side effect/vulnerability issue, given how they handle the change with a built-in side effect (failure).

 

Now I have a question for you - regarding your penalty for coming up with a "new power" on the spot how do you handle small changes, the same? Let's say I have an Energy Blast and I want to change it to AoE while ratcheting down my Force Field? Most players would say that their character shouldn't have much trouble with that, especially if they've otherwise created AoE effects. Just say "too bad, use Variable Advantage" - which means they'd have to pay +1.5? Or do you adjust the 11/less roll?

 

Also, how do you regulate adding powers? So many between adventure?

 

Actually I'm really giving it some thought. As I stated in my response, I banked your solution and have been looking at it.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

To my mind, they already receive much of this advantage (so does everyone else though) in that 12 seconds of chaotic combat are laid out neatly on the map for them to take in at their leisure and decide their next move.

 

Players are also generally allowed input from other players, where their characters would lack that luxury.

 

One option is to take the Tactics skill for tactical geniuses, and allow them added leeway as a result.

 

I see the logic of what you're saying, even if it's not how I see it. I feel that even though it's at their "leisure", the very last action someone took before them they often have to take into account when their turn comes. Also, even if the map is well-laid out and well-described, it's way different from being there, so there's often questions and speculations.

 

Also, you just can't compare a human of INT 12 or 15, let's say, with no combat experience even with a few minutes to a superhuman with INT 20 with lots of combat experience. IMHO.

 

I'm not sure that "their characters would lack the luxury", most often teams tend to have a communication method built-in and the genre sometimes (but not always) supports amazingly coordinated (and not pre-combat-meditated) actions.

 

Also, you should be aware of something key - I enforce that all actions in a segment are simultaneous. The only exceptions are heroic and defensive actions, and even those require a DEX roll - sometimes (but rarely) it's DEX-vs-DEX (the villain teleported out, "no, I grab him" - okay, DEX vs DEX). This makes a big difference in that even a villain who is hit almost always gets his attack off (and vice-versa of course).

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Clearly the +1 advantage must be overpriced.

 

I'd rather not have the cosmic vpp step on the toes of someone who actually pays the +1 advantage for summon or transform or change environment, or pays the +1/4 advantage for adjustment powers or for variable special effects. He gets a much more effective power for fewer points.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Zed-F

What is wrong with this picture is that you have completely neglected to take limitations on the power into account. The VPP guy pays 87 points for all summons, regardless of how many lims he puts on them; all the lims do is let him have more summon powers in his pool at once. OTOH, if all I want is to be able to summon any one 250-pt. creature, I can put as many lims as I like on the standard power and get it much more cheaply. Or, I can put it in a Multipower(!) and get it for at most 10 points (in an ultra slot) and STILL pile on the limitations.

 

Don't compare apples and tractors.

 

It's a pretty shaky comparison when you have to invoke limitations. The base cosmic vpp is much more effective than the base summon. And it costs 13 pts less.

 

The person with base summons spends 10 end per shot, and can summon 1 being of 250 pts. To spend the same end and get a closer comparison, it costs him 112 pts.

 

The vpp spends 5 end per pop. He can summon 1 250, 2 225, 4 200, or 1024 0 pt beings. He can also summon devoted followers of either less points or fewer numbers. Or summon that nice police detective that you've just met (specific being). In general have much more flexibility for 25 less points. Heck, he could spend 100 pts and have cosmic vpp attacks only, or 110 pts and have cosmic vpp magic only. Then he can summon, transform, change environment, and attack with any combination he wants.

 

The 10 pt multipower option is assuming you already have a 100 pt multipower. Or 112 if you want to match the end cost. Not something you can always count on.

 

You may be able to get away with piling on limitations on summon, but putting them on transform, change environment, adjustment powers, or energy blast is much tougher without hurting yourself.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by zornwil

Now I have a question for you - regarding your penalty for coming up with a "new power" on the spot how do you handle small changes, the same? Let's say I have an Energy Blast and I want to change it to AoE while ratcheting down my Force Field? Most players would say that their character shouldn't have much trouble with that, especially if they've otherwise created AoE effects. Just say "too bad, use Variable Advantage" - which means they'd have to pay +1.5? Or do you adjust the 11/less roll?

 

I run a campaign with fairly detailed magic, and I tend to use VPPs to represent that, so my approach might not be what works best in a true four color game.

 

That said, if a spirit warrior of Shango already knew how to throw a fire blast and wanted to switch to an explosive fire blast, the default would be:

 

A) Make his SS: Ritual Magic and Inventor (Spell Craft) Rolls, concentrating for a full phase to do so. The next phase he could throw his explosive fire blast using his RSR: Ritual Magic skill at -1 per 5 active points or at 11 or less if his pool doesn't work off of a required skill roll. He could then write down the spell after the game session and remove the extra limits.

 

In a more four color game, or for dramatic purposes, I'd mostly follow your suggestion:

 

Make the SS: Ritual Magic and Inventor rolls (he still needs to figure out how to do this), concentrating at 0 DCV for 1/2 phase to do so, then cast using his normal RSR, or at 14 or less if he doesn't have an RSR.

 

I do want to give the VPP player value for the extra points he sunk into the power, but I also want to encourage pre-made spell / effect lists so that I can plan accordingly. Thematically I want spell / effect research and design to mean something for both VPP artists and Multipower users.

 

Originally posted by zornwil Also, how do you regulate adding powers? So many between adventure?

 

Here I'm not that strict. If you figured out how to use it in play (as above), write it down with whatever limits you want and you can use it in the next session. Other than that research takes a base of the spell's active point cost/5 in days, a SS roll, and an Inventor (Spellcraft) roll. This can be moved down the time chart by 1 step per -3 to the inventor roll. This means that it's actually a bit faster to "field test" a new spell than it is to develop one in the safety of your library.

 

In practice I'll usually let a player add as many spells as he likes between adventures, so long as they fit the restrictions and special effects of his pool and I have time to look them over before the game. We just assume that most of the spell research was on-going, or that the spells had already been developed by other mages of the same type.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

It's a pretty shaky comparison when you have to invoke limitations. The base cosmic vpp is much more effective than the base summon. And it costs 13 pts less.

 

The person with base summons spends 10 end per shot, and can summon 1 being of 250 pts. To spend the same end and get a closer comparison, it costs him 112 pts.

You may be able to get away with piling on limitations on summon, but putting them on transform, change environment, adjustment powers, or energy blast is much tougher without hurting yourself.

 

Just for the record, how many people out there allow limitations on Cosmic power pool powers? If the character can simply change the power as a zero phase action, at will, to change or remove the limitations, how Limiting are they?

 

If the character has some uncertainty or time requirement for the change, I'd be more inclined to put some value on the limitations, but when he can just revise (or remove) the limitations when they become incnvenient, that's not really a limitation at all.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

The vpp spends 5 end per pop. He can summon 1 250, 2 225, 4 200, or 1024 0 pt beings. He can also summon devoted followers of either less points or fewer numbers. Or summon that nice police detective that you've just met (specific being). In general have much more flexibility for 25 less points. Heck, he could spend 100 pts and have cosmic vpp attacks only, or 110 pts and have cosmic vpp magic only. Then he can summon, transform, change environment, and attack with any combination he wants.

 

The 10 pt multipower option is assuming you already have a 100 pt multipower. Or 112 if you want to match the end cost. Not something you can always count on.

 

A VPP is just a variant multipower when you cut through it. A Multipower is a cosmic VPP with only certain slots, which you have to pay a bit extra each time you add one.

 

Limitations are, as Zed-F has pointed out, much more effective on a multipower than on a VPP. Let's look at that "Attacks only" 50 point VPP (with a 50 point aggregate control cost for 100 points, your example). He can have any attack he wants at the 50 point level. A multipower could "only" have 10 Ultra slots.

 

Let's add OAF. All his powers come from guns. The VPP costs 75 points, and he can have two powers at the same time. The multipower can have a 100 point reserve and cost 75 (again, two powers at the same time, but again only 10 ultra slots available).

 

But Our Heroes have a problem. 10d6 just isn't cutting it. MultipowerMan can spend 10 Xp and have a 20d6 EB in his multipower. VPPMan must spend another 75 points! He has a lot more versatility once he gets there, of course, but it takes a lot longer to achieve the goal.

 

Looked at another way, maybe every Super should have a VPP. They always seem to be finding new and innovative ways to use their powers in the comics, and they seem to go well beyond simply applying the Power skill. They must all have VPP's! [And we should apply the "no referring to your list of VPP powers in play" rule since they seem to forget some of those applications on a pretty common basis too!]

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

A VPP is just a variant multipower when you cut through it. A Multipower is a cosmic VPP with only certain slots, which you have to pay a bit extra each time you add one.

 

Limitations are, as Zed-F has pointed out, much more effective on a multipower than on a VPP. Let's look at that "Attacks only" 50 point VPP (with a 50 point aggregate control cost for 100 points, your example). He can have any attack he wants at the 50 point level. A multipower could "only" have 10 Ultra slots.

 

Let's add OAF. All his powers come from guns. The VPP costs 75 points, and he can have two powers at the same time. The multipower can have a 100 point reserve and cost 75 (again, two powers at the same time, but again only 10 ultra slots available).

 

But Our Heroes have a problem. 10d6 just isn't cutting it. MultipowerMan can spend 10 Xp and have a 20d6 EB in his multipower. VPPMan must spend another 75 points! He has a lot more versatility once he gets there, of course, but it takes a lot longer to achieve the goal.

 

Looked at another way, maybe every Super should have a VPP. They always seem to be finding new and innovative ways to use their powers in the comics, and they seem to go well beyond simply applying the Power skill. They must all have VPP's! [And we should apply the "no referring to your list of VPP powers in play" rule since they seem to forget some of those applications on a pretty common basis too!]

 

Warning, math errors again. If you have a 100 pt multipower with 10 slots, it costs 200 base points and 100 with OAF. Not 75. You need the full 100 pts to be able to summon anything, or transform to anything, or change environment anything, or to place variable special effects advantage on your attacks. And you're assuming that a 100 pt multipower will be allowed in the first place.

 

And if you apply OAF to so many points, you're really putting yourself in danger. The trouble with taking hefty limitations, is that they are limitations. They make your powers less useful.

 

I can make a claim that my powers that only work in water (-1.5) or X10 end cost (-4) are more powerful than your OAF powers. It's true, but those powers are less useful.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Just for the record, how many people out there allow limitations on Cosmic power pool powers? If the character can simply change the power as a zero phase action, at will, to change or remove the limitations, how Limiting are they?

 

If the character has some uncertainty or time requirement for the change, I'd be more inclined to put some value on the limitations, but when he can just revise (or remove) the limitations when they become incnvenient, that's not really a limitation at all.

 

I'm inclined to not grant any limitation unless it affects them that round such as an activation roll.

 

I find the example of Takofanes to be totally bogus. He has a 10d6 RKA vs living only, and a 10d6 RKA vs dead only. Hardly limiting for a cosmic vpp.

[Zed-F]

You said:

Another thing is to require a vpp to pay additional costs if they have flexibility. For example, if the player only has 1 special effect for an EB in his vpp, he can get it as usual. If he has the ability to use fire, ice, lightning, etc, then all his EBs must have the variable advantage on them. Similarly, if he could use the vpp to transfrom targets to anything, he must pay for a +1 advantage. If he can summon one specific type of summon, it's normal. If he can summon anything, he has to take a +1 advantage on any summons built through the pool.

 

and

 

Originally posted by Gary

It's a pretty shaky comparison when you have to invoke limitations.

 

The vpp spends 5 end per pop. He can summon 1 250, 2 225, 4 200, or 1024 0 pt beings. He can also summon devoted followers of either less points or fewer numbers. Or summon that nice police detective that you've just met (specific being). In general have much more flexibility for 25 less points. Heck, he could spend 100 pts and have cosmic vpp attacks only, or 110 pts and have cosmic vpp magic only. Then he can summon, transform, change environment, and attack with any combination he wants.

 

The 10 pt multipower option is assuming you already have a 100 pt multipower. Or 112 if you want to match the end cost. Not something you can always count on.

 

Why would I want to do that, however? Of course, I could, but what would be the point? Do I really need to be able to summon *anything* with 250 points of effect? Or do I really want to be able to summon a number of specific things at that level?

 

A 50 AP summon-only VPP costs 87 points (per your numbers) and allows any one summoning power up to 50 AP. All well and good. I could as easily buy a 50 AP Multipower and 3 50 AP summon slots for 65 points. That should let me cover off most summoning needs I have, or if not I can always add another slot or two for 5 points each. If I get tired of summoning, I can add more slots to do other stuff. After all, how many creatures do I really want to design and submit for GM approval? I can even summon *anything*, with the +1 advantage, in a single slot, for 5 points, so long as the total effect is 50 AP or less.

 

Your solution, Gary, would be to *require* VPP guy to have that +1 advantage. That will absolutely not suit. In that case, VPP guy would be limited to having exactly the same effect as that last single MP slot, without any of the other slots, and pay substantially *more* for it. No way would I play that character in your game if you were to enforce that kind of a restriction.

 

It gets worse when we tack on limitations. Suppose we add an OAF Staff to both cases. Now we have a 50 AP VPP that costs 70 CP, and can have 2 summons present in the pool at once, compared with a multipower that costs 25 CP plus 2 CP per power. I can buy an *awful* lot of summons at 2 CP a pop plus a bunch more non-summon powers before I get anywhere near 70 CP, plus be able to swap between them as a 0 phase action with no skill roll required (which would be a +2 advantage on the VPP, increasing its cost to 110 CP). The fact that I can only summon one thing at a time with the multipower is pretty much irrelevant because summons stick around after they are summoned, and how many things is the GM going to allow me to summon at once anyway? Besides, if it's really an issue, it's not that difficult to buy up that reserve to 100 points for another 25 CP and still cost substantially less than the VPP.

 

VPPs are fine the way they are. You do NOT need to add a +1 modifier to be able to change its slots to anything; the whole raison d'etre for a VPP is *because* you can change its slots to anything. I wouldn't object too strenuously if the GM wanted to impose a variable SFX for +1/4, but anything beyond that would destroy the inherent value of a VPP.