VPP Opinions

[Zed-F]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Gary, first you say you DO have a problem with Change Envronment and they should have the +1 advantage, then you say Change Environment is not a concern. Do you mean that you would not impose the +1 advantage requirement if the VPP can onl;y have Change Environments?

 

If so, wouldn't this logically also apply to the "summon only" VPP you were saying ewas too cheap without such a restriction in the first place?

 

To be fair, Gary also said the following:

I'm not penalizing all vpps. I'm only penalizing vpps that:

 

1) Are easy to change in combat.

 

2) Have a "large" selection of powers.

He also previously stated that he would probably not enforce a +1 advantage against a summon-only VPP. It looks to me like in this case, Gary's being internally consistent with his own statements, though you have to search the thread to find the appropriate comments.

 

Whether it's internally consistent to not enforce a +1 advantage for a 87-point cosmic summon-only pool but still enforce a +1 advantage on transforms in a 110-point attacks-only pool, I leave for you to decide.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Zed-F

It depends on the conception. Typical range is between -1/2 and -1 for most focus-based characters. Certainly most weaponmasters will have an OAF weapon. They will also have martial arts so they are not helpless when they get disarmed. Often they will have several different foci with different sets of powers associated. A powered armour character -- usually -1/2 for most characters, but could be more depending on the conception. A battlesuit would not likely be an OAF, but could be an OIF with additional restrictions, such as an additional "drain one drain all" on a particular SFX, or "uncommon restrainable" limitation. Even so, my powered armour characters will usually have some combat abilites not purchased on the armour, e.g. martial arts or a gadget pool. Similar for a focus-based mystic -- usually the focus will be OIF, but it could have some additional limitations on it depending on conception.

 

For non-focus characters, it's often harder to come up with a large limitation that applies to the majority of their powers. You could go with RSR/Side effects for a mystic character, for example, but then to get into the -1 range you usually need a substantial side effect. You'll have to clear the side effect with the GM as well, and the GM may have a different idea of what a suitably severe side effect than you do is. Still, it can be done; again see OddHat's Style character for an example (including a discussion of the severity of the side effect.)

 

I usually go with -1/2 or less for the main attack or defense abilities unless it's power armor. A lot like you I guess. I dislike weaponmaster type characters since it's too easy to deal with OAF weapons. For example, all you need is a 12d6 EB spread for +6 OCV to aim for the weapon, and most weaponmasters would be disarmed. Or certain types of area effects and explosions are also effective.

 

Originally posted by Zed-F

Depends on how you want to buy the power, and what exactly you are trying to do. With the sample multipower above, I outlined a character that could summon 3 (or more) different specific things at full effect, plus a slot that had the +1 advantage, and thus could summon any correspondingly weaker creature. That would seem quite reasonable to me. I can easily see any number of situations where an incidental helper could be useful. However, those incidental helpers don't necessarily need to be built on the same number of AP as your most powerful summons, as they are summoned to fill a specific need, and thus you usually won't need them once that need is filled anyway. The same can be said for summoning specific beings. How many AP of effect do you really need to summon policeman Bob?

 

The summon specific being power is quite powerful in a vpp. Anytime you need policeman Bob, you can get him. You may even be able to summon Bill Gates, Congressmen or the President if needed, since they would probably be less than 125 pts assuming a 50 pt vpp. If you tried that with a multipower, you would have to pay permanent points for each slot and you couldn't do it on the fly.

 

Originally posted by Zed-F

I wouldn't take OAF staff on the control cost of a cosmic VPP either. Big limitations like that tend not to mix well with VPPs; they are better suited to multipowers. As I mentioned, I commonly see really big multipowers with a limitation in the -1/2 to -1 range, though not usually with an OAF but through a combination of other limitations. Collections of smaller multipowers are often include candidates for an OAF. I tend to see more OAF + backup attack than taking an OIF on a by-default-accessible focus.

 

Yeah, I only OAF stuff that I wouldn't really miss too much if taken away. It's hard to take big limitations on your main attacks or defenses with a proper GM, because you know he'll use your weaknesses against you.

 

 

Originally posted by Zed-F

An attacks only VPP would be a -1/4 lim according to FREd, so also 110 points. I'm not certain that a magic-only VPP even qualifies for a -1/4 limitation -- it's listed as a sample -1/4 limitation, but (a) according to the VPP description you're supposed to have a common SFX for your VPP anyway, and ( none of the examples in FREd include a limitation for being a "gadget pool" or a "magic pool." Someone who wanted to take a -1/4 lim on their VPP just for having a common SFX would have to convince me why it was a limitation first.

 

That's strange. Takofanes has a -1/4 limitation, magic only, on his 150 pt cosmic vpp. Attacks only is definitely more restricting than magic only, so I assumed it was -1/2.

 

Originally posted by Zed-F

At 110 points, the VPP is paying a fairly hefty premium for its flexibility. A 10d6 variable SFX EB would be 75 AP. Even continuing to ignore limitations, I could boost my multipower to 75 AP and still have not too much problem paying for slots with that kind of points to work with -- and I could put a 15d6 EB in there if I wanted. Or I could buy quite a few 50 AP slots for that kind of points.

 

Doesn't seem to be terribly unbalanced. Yes, the VPP has a ton of flexibility. But he has to pay a LOT of points to get it. Would I choose the VPP or the MP for my character? That would depend on what my conception was, and whether I thought I could fulfill as visualized it within my points budget.

 

A 75 pt multipower would only have 5 slots for 110 pts. And the slot with 10d6 +1/2 variable special effects pays 7 end per shot rather than 5. And a 75 pt multipower may bust campaign damage limits while the 50 pt vpp may not.

 

At this level without limitations, the cosmic vpp is clearly better. If you add limitations, it gets better for the multipower, but the downside of course is that these are limitations and any decent GM will use them against you.

 

I happen to think that someone with an easily changed vpp with a large selection of powers already has enough flexibility without stepping on the toes of people who actually pay the +1 flexibility advantage for their powers.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Zed-F

To be fair, Gary also said the following:

 

He also previously stated that he would probably not enforce a +1 advantage against a summon-only VPP. It looks to me like in this case, Gary's being internally consistent with his own statements, though you have to search the thread to find the appropriate comments.

 

Whether it's internally consistent to not enforce a +1 advantage for a 87-point cosmic summon-only pool but still enforce a +1 advantage on transforms in a 110-point attacks-only pool, I leave for you to decide.

 

Thanks Zed.

 

I think it's fair. For 23 additional pts, you get far more than enough other powers and advantages to balance the reduced flexibility with summons, transforms, and change environment.

[Zed-F]

The summon specific being power is quite powerful in a vpp. Anytime you need policeman Bob, you can get him. You may even be able to summon Bill Gates, Congressmen or the President if needed, since they would probably be less than 125 pts assuming a 50 pt vpp. If you tried that with a multipower, you would have to pay permanent points for each slot and you couldn't do it on the fly.

You seem to have missed my point about summoned incidental helpers not requiring the same AP to summon. You can summon any specific being in a MP just as easily as with a VPP -- you just can't do it with the same amount of AP of effect (unless your MP has a bigger AP reserve than the VPP, which is entirely possible considering their relative costs.) For a 60-point MP slot, you can buy a summon, anything (+1), specific individual (+1) and get up to 100 point people. That's anything up to and including any competent normal based on 50+50. Summon Bill Gates, the President, or a Congressman? No problem! It just costs you 6 points in an ultra slot (less limitations.) Your other slots will hold the combat-effective summons. A 30-point MP slot might not be able to get the President, but would still be able to get any skilled normal (e.g. specific judges, police chiefs, etc.) built on 25+25. Even with a measly 15-point slot you can still get Policeman Bob, since he's just a normal built on 0+25 points.

 

Yeah, I only OAF stuff that I wouldn't really miss too much if taken away. It's hard to take big limitations on your main attacks or defenses with a proper GM, because you know he'll use your weaknesses against you.

As he should. However, a proper GM will also not overdo using your limitations against you, and when he does use them against you he will both tailor the threat level to your character appropriately and will provide an opportunity for your character to grab his share of the spotlight. Again, this is very in-genre.

 

A 75 pt multipower would only have 5 slots for 110 pts. And the slot with 10d6 +1/2 variable special effects pays 7 end per shot rather than 5. And a 75 pt multipower may bust campaign damage limits while the 50 pt vpp may not.

 

At this level without limitations, the cosmic vpp is clearly better. If you add limitations, it gets better for the multipower, but the downside of course is that these are limitations and any decent GM will use them against you.

 

I happen to think that someone with an easily changed vpp with a large selection of powers already has enough flexibility without stepping on the toes of people who actually pay the +1 flexibility advantage for their powers.[/b]

That's your prerogative. I can't say I agree, but you're entitled to your opinion, of course. It seems to me that the VPP player has already paid for it as well.

 

The 110-point attacks-only cosmic VPP is only better than a 75-point attack multipower if the campaign damage cap is 50 AP. If the damage cap is 75 AP, the MP is probably the stronger option. If we consider that the MP can have more than just attacks in it, again it's not clear which is better; we'd need to know exactly what the MP has in it to decide.

 

I'll agree that, in general, if I want no limitations at all, I tend to prefer a VPP to an MP -- in fact, I've already stated as much. OTOH, I don't think limitations on powers are nearly as big a curse as you seem to make them out to be. They are just another opportunity to roleplay; a good GM will use them against you but will make sure to tailor the scenario to the fact that he is using them against you.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Gary

The summon specific being power is quite powerful in a vpp. Anytime you need policeman Bob, you can get him. You may even be able to summon Bill Gates, Congressmen or the President if needed, since they would probably be less than 125 pts assuming a 50 pt vpp. If you tried that with a multipower, you would have to pay permanent points for each slot and you couldn't do it on the fly.

 

The description of Summon specifically describes Summon Specific Being as being used for summoning the spirits of the dead, and cautions against using it to summon the living; It's effectively a Stop sign advantage on a Stop sign power, and a GM who permitted it to be used to summon Bill Gates or the President has no excuse claiming not to know what he's getting into. Furthermore, considering the value of his actual stats and skills, wealth, contacts and followers, none of which neccesarily come free with "Head of State," the case can be made that the President of the United States is always going to be far more than a 150 point character in "realistic" campaigns.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Zed-F

You seem to have missed my point about summoned incidental helpers not requiring the same AP to summon. You can summon any specific being in a MP just as easily as with a VPP -- you just can't do it with the same amount of AP of effect (unless your MP has a bigger AP reserve than the VPP, which is entirely possible considering their relative costs.) For a 60-point MP slot, you can buy a summon, anything (+1), specific individual (+1) and get up to 100 point people. That's anything up to and including any competent normal based on 50+50. Summon Bill Gates, the President, or a Congressman? No problem! It just costs you 6 points in an ultra slot (less limitations.) Your other slots will hold the combat-effective summons. A 30-point MP slot might not be able to get the President, but would still be able to get any skilled normal (e.g. specific judges, police chiefs, etc.) built on 25+25. Even with a measly 15-point slot you can still get Policeman Bob, since he's just a normal built on 0+25 points.

 

Of course this is adding up in terms of points spent. We're already up to 3 combat summons, a misc summons, and a specific being summons slot. And you probably still want 1-2 slots with multiple weaker summons as well. That's a lot of points spent on slots already.

 

Originally posted by Zed-F

As he should. However, a proper GM will also not overdo using your limitations against you, and when he does use them against you he will both tailor the threat level to your character appropriately and will provide an opportunity for your character to grab his share of the spotlight. Again, this is very in-genre.

 

Yep, which is why most OAF characters have a backup attack, which soaks up some of his points savings from OAF. If I were a GM and a character bought all his attacks OAF with no backup attack, then I would have no sympathy if he loses the OAF and has to run away or twiddle his thumbs.

 

Originally posted by Zed-F

That's your prerogative. I can't say I agree, but you're entitled to your opinion, of course. It seems to me that the VPP player has already paid for it as well.

 

So has the player who paid for the +1 advantage on summon, change environment, or transform. Or the player who paid for the +1/2 variable special effects advantage.

 

Originally posted by Zed-F

The 110-point attacks-only cosmic VPP is only better than a 75-point attack multipower if the campaign damage cap is 50 AP. If the damage cap is 75 AP, the MP is probably the stronger option. If we consider that the MP can have more than just attacks in it, again it's not clear which is better; we'd need to know exactly what the MP has in it to decide.

 

Hugh would disagree with you about that. He has stated that a 60 pt multipower with 5 slots is a better option than a straight 90 pt attack.

 

With enough limitations, the 75 pt multipower can be better since you can get more slots. However at the base level, a 75 pt multipower with 5 slots (110 pts) is probably inferior to the 50 pt magic only vpp for the same 110 pts.

 

Originally posted by Zed-F

I'll agree that, in general, if I want no limitations at all, I tend to prefer a VPP to an MP -- in fact, I've already stated as much. OTOH, I don't think limitations on powers are nearly as big a curse as you seem to make them out to be. They are just another opportunity to roleplay; a good GM will use them against you but will make sure to tailor the scenario to the fact that he is using them against you.

 

Of course that depends a lot on exactly which limitations you take and the approach that the GM takes.

[Gary]

Originally posted by OddHat

The description of Summon specifically describes Summon Specific Being as being used for summoning the spirits of the dead, and cautions against using it to summon the living; It's effectively a Stop sign advantage on a Stop sign power, and a GM who permitted it to be used to summon Bill Gates or the President has no excuse claiming not to know what he's getting into. Furthermore, considering the value of his actual stats and skills, wealth, contacts and followers, none of which neccesarily come free with "Head of State," the case can be made that the President of the United States is always going to be far more than a 150 point character in "realistic" campaigns.

 

It also states that it can be used if the target is precisely located. Of course if the GM doesn't want the president or Bill Gates summoned, he'll always be able to stop it from happening. It's a lot more likely to be allowed if you summon Bob Policeman.