AP limits on frameworks

[Kevlyn]

I had a player recently tell me that my restriction on frameworks to the campaign limit was the first time they'd heard of that. They considered the AP limit to apply to powers within the framework.

 

I ruled that a framework should be limited, because it allows players to acquire powers that are significantly discounted and I viewed attempting to use a framework in this manner an abuse of the system.

 

How do other GMs handle frameworks?

[Greywind]

Re: AP limits on frameworks

 

AP limits the powers within the framework, and not the overall framework. While the powers themselves may be discounted, they are paying extra for the framework for the flexibility.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: AP limits on frameworks

 

I agree with your player to an extent.

 

I understand your desire to limit Multipower pool points (or VPP) but that is less important to limit than the Active Points of the individual powers themselves. My suggestion would be to set the limit for Pool Points to double the active point limit in your campaign.

 

Keep in mind that limiting the Pool Points so low makes it difficult for the character to have more than 1 or 2 powers running at one time. If that's how you want it to be done, then it should be okay, but if you are okay with the players having 4 30 active point powers going at once, a 60 point limit to the Power Pool will prevent this.

[Kevlyn]

Re: AP limits on frameworks

 

Well, for me at least, I wonder why wouldn't everyone have a VPP then? They wouldn't need to worry about buying powers, they could just have whatever power they need for the situation.

 

So, since I've never really ran HERO before, what should I look for when dealing with VPPs? MPs for that matter too.

[Greywind]

Re: AP limits on frameworks

 

Unless you have a player that is well versed with power builds, avoid VPPs in the beginning. Or make sure that every thing that they can possible do with the VPP is written out before you ever start to play. Or invest in a copy of the USPDb.

 

Multipowers allow versatility, but the actual abilities are defined and locked.

 

VPPs allow versatility on the fly.

[Kevlyn]

Re: AP limits on frameworks

 

Yeah, that was my thought. I made a character with a VPP, but I limited the switching out of powers, and when he'd used a power a third time his VPP would remain locked to that power until it was moved into a MP. That, to me, simulated "developing power stunts".

 

Is that a reasonable use, I'm very wary of even using VPPs at all. The example above was for a NPC, so I wasn't too worried about how I used it (I only changed it between adventures).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: AP limits on frameworks

 

It's always a good idea to make sure the limitations on powers in a VPP are consistent and/or truly limiting (like Extra Time, Requires a Roll, Increase Endurance, etc..).

 

Also keep in mind that there is a certain equivalency between a single power with Variable Advantage, a Multipower and a VPP (also see this old thread)

A good comparison of the latter 2 can be made by looking at my 350 point 5er & 400 point 6e versions of Superman (multipower in the 1st, VPP in the second).

[Greywind]

Re: AP limits on frameworks

 

Pimp

[Hyper-Man]

Re: AP limits on frameworks

 

Pimp

 

Hey, it ain't always easy bein' so freaky.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: AP limits on frameworks

 

Well, for me at least, I wonder why wouldn't everyone have a VPP then? They wouldn't need to worry about buying powers, they could just have whatever power they need for the situation.

 

So, since I've never really ran HERO before, what should I look for when dealing with VPPs? MPs for that matter too.

 

There are several reasons why everyone wouldn't have a VPP as opposed to a Multipower:

 

1) People are intimidated by them. The ability to do anything, while it sounds good on paper, can actually be quite daunting in actual game play. New players will likely sit at the table and hold up the game while they try to think of just the right power for the situation. And many players who come from games where the powers are pre-made for them (by the game designers, usually) have a hard time thinking of Hero system powers on the fly. I've dealt with several players in this category over the years.

 

2) Many GM's are intimidated by them and outlaw them altogether. Depending on the genre and power level one is running, this is something I support and recommend. You also have to take your players into consideration and realize that if you have a player or two who will abuse a VPP, you may just have to outlaw them entirely.

 

3)Variable Power Pools are notoriously expensive. Nothing you can do will reduce the cost of buying the Pool itself. Unless you are playing in a fairly high powered game, trying to afford anything over a 60pt VPP and having points left for characteristics, Skill and Talents is going to be difficult at best.

 

That said, if you are running a fairly high powered game and you have players you could trust not to abuse a VPP, they can be quite fun to play with, but rarely have I come across players who want to use them all the time.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: AP limits on frameworks

 

One solution to game slowdown is to use pre-designed VPP powers. If the player needs 5 minutes to design the power, maybe the character can't custom build it on the fly either. Using the VPP as a multipower with no cost for additional slots is a reasonable transition as a character becomes more and more versatile with his multipower.

 

Having those pre-designs also marked with "per increment" costs also speeds things up (eg. I know I can have up to 48 meters flight at 1/2 END, and I also note that I get 4 meters per 5 points invested).

 

The de-linking of max AP and pool level makes VPP's a lot more flexible in 6e.

[Ice9]

Re: AP limits on frameworks

 

The de-linking of max AP and pool level makes VPP's a lot more flexible in 6e.

Definitely so. I'm enjoying that heavily-limited VPPs are no longer a waste of points. Something I used recently:

 

Last Ditch Wish

30 - 30 RP pool.

30 - 90 AP control, no skill roll, 90 AP; all slots Side Effects (Severe, always occurs; -2)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: AP limits on frameworks

 

I also like the fact that an attacks only VPP can be OAF without needing multiple power attacks to feel like the pool cost is useful. 30 point pool and 60 AP lets you select any one 12DC attack (or, at least in my game, MPA with any combo up to 12 DCs).

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: AP limits on frameworks

 

Watch out for VPPs at the AP cap, with a larger real point cost. Characters gain a huge amount of flexibility by putting points spent on non-special powers into buying up the real point cap for a VPP.

[sinanju]

Re: AP limits on frameworks

 

There are several reasons why everyone wouldn't have a VPP as opposed to a Multipower:

 

1) People are intimidated by them. The ability to do anything, while it sounds good on paper, can actually be quite daunting in actual game play. New players will likely sit at the table and hold up the game while they try to think of just the right power for the situation. And many players who come from games where the powers are pre-made for them (by the game designers, usually) have a hard time thinking of Hero system powers on the fly. I've dealt with several players in this category over the years.

 

I love them. I'd use them for a lot of character builds if I were able. However...

 

2) Many GM's are intimidated by them and outlaw them altogether. Depending on the genre and power level one is running, this is something I support and recommend. You also have to take your players into consideration and realize that if you have a player or two who will abuse a VPP, you may just have to outlaw them entirely.

 

Yes, many GMs outlaw them entirely, which makes me a sad panda. So I settle for multi-powers even when a VPP would really suit the concept better.

 

3)Variable Power Pools are notoriously expensive. Nothing you can do will reduce the cost of buying the Pool itself. Unless you are playing in a fairly high powered game, trying to afford anything over a 60pt VPP and having points left for characteristics, Skill and Talents is going to be difficult at best.

 

Yes, they are. I recently played a game where the PCs started at 175+75 points, but gained 25--TWENTY-FIVE!--XP per session. I played a character with a VPP. A cosmic VPP, no less. Early on, my flexibility was a godsend. In the "middle" range, I started finding myself hamstrung by just this issue. I couldn't match the AP costs of powers other PCs (and NPCs) were buying because they weren't having to pay for the pool cost the way I was. I could defend myself, generally, since defenses are cheaper than offense as a rule; but I seldom was able to do much damage to our opponents. When we got to be really high-powered, though, as in 700-800 points, my VPP again became amazingly powerful--especially when I simply duplicated the other characters. "I turn into a copy of John's character!"