GM conundrum - CSLs

[purple justice]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

You don't have to use the power at full capacity. Ever. You can crank that sucker right down to a 20D6 and only use 10END.

I don't know that. Steve S long will confirm .

 

We've already said buying one huge 400 point power is a bad idea

And I answer you that is your interpretation. I read nowhere you can use 400 CP to one power.

 

But if I quoted Steve S Long through the Basic Rulebooks :

 

In a Superheroïc campaign, characters are built on 400 total points ( and have to select 75 Character Points' worth of Matching Complications ). Superheroïc campaigns feature extremely powerful characters. They can buy Powers or anything else they want ( subject to the GM's permission, of course).

 

 

GAZZA ,

I understand nothing of your post. I never said the basic superhero is blind. I tried to guess where the points over the 325 points came from... So I supposed they came either sacrifices from characteristics' base values , either disabilities from the blindness or deaf and dumb etc...

[ghost-angel]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

I don't know that. Steve S long will confirm .

 

BR p37 Endurance: costs 1 Endurance for every 10 Active Points of Power used. Note: That means if you have a 10D6 (50 Active Points) Blast and only use 2D6 (10 Active Points) you only spend 1 END.

 

And I answer you that is your interpretation. I read nowhere you can use 400 CP to one power.

 

But if I quoted Steve S Long through the Basic Rulebooks :

 

In a Superheroïc campaign, characters are built on 400 total points ( and have to select 75 Character Points' worth of Matching Complications ). Superheroïc campaigns feature extremely powerful characters. They can buy Powers or anything else they want ( subject to the GM's permission, of course).

 

And nowhere does it say that you can not. It's not an interpretation on my part. It is simple fact.

 

Your own quoted text is on my side "Or Anything Else They Want" - it's a POSSIBILITY. The simple fact is you claimed it was illegal. You are wrong on that point.

 

I understand nothing of your post. I never said the basic superhero is blind. I tried to guess where the points over the 325 points came from... So I supposed they came either sacrifices from characteristics' base values ' date=' either disabilities from the blindness or deaf and dumb etc...[/quote']

 

BR p78-83 Complications: some ideas on where to match those 75 Points of needed Complications.

 

(PS - as of this posting Steve is in the Chat Room right now giving his weekly update if you'd like to say hello)

[purple justice]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Chapter and verse please? Which of the base numbers are incorrect? All Hugh mentioned was OCV 3 (which is correct)' date=' DEX 10 (also correct) and SPD 2 (huh, correct as well, fancy that). Which of these base values do you take issue with? I claim, with the full force of the rulebooks behind me, that a character who spends 0 points on characteristics will nonetheless have a DEX 10, OCV 3, and SPD 2. What do you claim such a character will have?[/quote']

I think you are a joker. You only forget END and STUN. ( Which are the disturbing elements of the message. Strange, isn't it ? )

The base values are the same. they are given on page 17 and 19 of the BR.

 

For information , the base value of END is under the minima for one use of a 80d6 blast.

And as I said above , the super character will be probably ( and mathematically/Statistically ) STUNNED before to use it.

[purple justice]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

(PS - as of this posting Steve is in the Chat Room right now giving his weekly update if you'd like to say hello)

I tried twenty minutes ago and there were no one . .

 

And in another thread , someone told me the Steve S Long's chat will take place in 3.00 AM (Paris Hour ).

[GAZZA]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

I think you are a joker.

My hair isn't green, and I'm not wearing make up, and frankly more of a Marvel fan.

 

You only forget END and STUN. ( Which are the disturbing elements of the message. Strange, isn't it ? )

I didn't forget them, Hugh didn't mention them, so I assumed you weren't referring to those when you said his quoted base values were wrong.

 

The base values are the same. they are given on page 17 and 19 of the BR.

I don't have the cliff notes, but they're both 20 right?

 

For information , the base value of END is under the minima for one use of a 80d6 blast.

Which I not only acknowledged, I told you two different ways that didn't matter (both of which have been independently suggested by Hugh and ghost angel, two of the most knowledgeable frequent posters here).

 

And as I said above , the super character will be probably ( and mathematically/Statistically ) STUNNED before to use it.

Which again, is not in dispute, and in fact is worse than you imagine (he'll be knocked out, not just stunned). If you're going to disagree with the parts that I'm not disputing this could take a long time.

 

Here, let's make it simple. At what point has anybody ever suggested the following:

- That the 80d6 Blast was a good character concept

 

- That it would take less than 40 END to use (unless it has charges)

 

- That it would be wielded with better than OCV 3, at a DEX higher than 10, or with a SPD higher than 2

 

- That the character would have no complications to make up the extra 75 points

 

I'm saying that nobody has said any of these, and yet you seem to be arguing as if we were. The sole claim we're making is that the character is legal - not that it's a good character, not that it will dominate play, not that it is remotely playable. Just legal. The same way my other examples of bad characters are legal but equally unplayable.

[purple justice]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

If Steve allows me to give the numbers , you'll see what I mean.

[purple justice]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Where come from the 40 END , please ?

 

That the character would have no complications to make up the extra 75 points

Sorry.

But I have to say wrong one more time. Take a look on BR p14 , there is an example.

The player only choose 50 points from Complications. It is written:" he only has ( 400-25 =) 375 Character Points to spend to create Defender." Conclusion ? The 25 pts from complications are lost.

You can't use them to buy other things.

[GAZZA]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Where come from the 40 END ' date=' please ?[/quote']

80d6 Energy Blast = 400 Active Points. End cost is 1 per 10 active points. Therefore 40 END.

 

Or else you mean "how can this character spend it"? He has 20 END (and 20 STUN, which we'll get to in a moment). There are two ways.

 

1. Buy the power as Blast 80d6, 16 charges (-0). That means that it costs no END, but he can use it only 16 times per day.

 

2. It is permitted to spend more END than you have; if you do, you take 1d6 STUN for every 2 extra END. (HSR6e pp46, under 'END'). So he has to spend 20 more END than he has, which means he'll take 10d6 STUN. On average that will be 35 STUN, enough to knock him down to -15, which means he'll knock himself out.

[ghost-angel]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

If Steve allows me to give the numbers ' date=' you'll see what I mean.[/quote']

 

go ahead and post the numbers you're talking about. I'm pretty sure we're just talking completely past you and you are arguing a non-point now.

[Vondy]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

I read nowhere you can use 400 CP to one power.

 

I read nowhere where it said you can't.

 

And, as for the other 325 points: Base Points.

[purple justice]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

80d6 Energy Blast = 400 Active Points. End cost is 1 per 10 active points. Therefore 40 END.

And where do you find the missing 75 ? You take no complication. So you lost 75 CP and only have 325 CP.

 

 

Or else you mean "how can this character spend it"? He has 20 END (and 20 STUN, which we'll get to in a moment). There are two ways.

 

1. Buy the power as Blast 80d6, 16 charges (-0). That means that it costs no END, but he can use it only 16 times per day.

So it cost no END . But it does not explain where the 40 END came from. Specially when the message begins with:

In any event' date=' the rule you cite does not prevent a character [b']spending all his points[/b] on a huge Energy Blast.

 

2. It is permitted to spend more END than you have; if you do, you take 1d6 STUN for every 2 extra END. (HSR6e pp46, under 'END').

Okay. This is a power. How do you buy it after spending all your points for the first power?

 

 

So he has to spend 20 more END than he has, which means he'll take 10d6 STUN. On average that will be 35 STUN, enough to knock him down to -15, which means he'll knock himself out.

No.

You decided to spend all your points in one power ( a huge Blast ) . You now decide to spend points you have not anymore in another power. I simply say No.

You can't use your power.

I am the GM. At the beginning - when we create your character together - you say you put all your points in the huge Blast. I said okay. You cannot change the way after . ( when you realize you need 19- with 10d6 not to be knocked out ).

 

I read nowhere you can use 400 CP to one power.

I read nowhere where it said you can't.

BR p14. the example.

[GAZZA]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

And where do you find the missing 75 ? You take no complication. So you lost 75 CP and only have 325 CP.

I gave you a list of complications. Go read that or make your own up. I'm not going to repeat myself every reply.

 

 

So it cost no END . But it does not explain where the 40 END came from. Specially when the message begins with:

2. It is permitted to spend more END than you have; if you do' date=' you take 1d6 STUN for every 2 extra END. (HSR6e pp46, under 'END').[/quote']

 

Okay. This is a power. How do you buy it after spending all your points for the first power?

It is difficult to make out what you're saying, but it sounds as if you think that you think the ability to spend STUN when you don't have END is a power that costs points. That isn't true; anyone can do that, it's part of the system.

 

No.

You decided to spend all your points in one power ( a huge Blast ) . You now decide to spend points you have not anymore in another power. I simply say No.

But I haven't put any points into any other powers. All I'm saying is that characters are allowed to burn STUN when they have insufficient END. It's under the description of the characteristic in the Hero System Rulebook 1, page 46. It is possible the basic rules omit this, which means you'll be unable to confirm it, but if you have access to the full books by all means look it up.

 

You can't use your power.

I am the GM. At the beginning - when we create your character together - you say you put all your points in the huge Blast. I said okay. You cannot change the way after . ( when you realize you need 19- with 10d6 not to be knocked out ).

Huh? I'm not saying that I expect to not be knocked out. I even pointed out that would happen!

 

And of course I wouldn't actually create this character. I just said it was legal. For goodness sake man, I realise that English may not be your first language, and I'm trying to be patient, but you aren't listening!

 

BR p14. the example.

I don't have the basic rules. But I am 100% certain that page 14 doesn't say "By the way, you can't spend all 400 points on a single power." You are misinterpreting it.

[purple justice]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

I gave you a list of complications. Go read that or make your own up. I'm not going to repeat myself every reply.

That's okay.

It is difficult to make out what you're saying' date=' but it sounds as if you think that you think the ability to spend STUN when you don't have END is a power that costs points. That isn't true; anyone can do that, it's part of the system.[/quote']

No I only said this power is not free. So you can't buy it after spending all your points on a first power.

And of course I wouldn't actually create this character. I just said it was legal. For goodness sake man' date=' I realise that English may not be your first language, and I'm trying to be patient, but you aren't listening![/quote']

No, it is not legal. Because in Huge's example after spending all your point to have a huge blast. You can't have 40END.

I don't have the basic rules. But I am 100% certain that page 14 doesn't say "By the way' date=' you can't spend all 400 points on a single power." You are misinterpreting it.[/quote']

I'm not going to repeat myself every reply too.

I quoted the whole text on page four ( integraly ) . And that's not what you were saying in Vondy's precedent reply. Read your own reply. You were talking about the character points.

[ghost-angel]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

No' date=' it is not legal. Because in Huge's example after spending all your point to have a huge blast. You can't have 40END.[/quote']

 

We know. We've also stated that we operate off the Full Rules, which states that for every 2END you spend over the END you have you take 1D6 Stun Damage. In the full rules you don't need 40 END to fire a 400 Active Point Power. It's just recommended.

 

You will find that on these boards we operate from and assume the full rules, not the Basic Rules.

 

Also, as a complete aside, a small Limitation, even a -1/4 Limitation, would gain enough Points back to buy 40 Endurance.

[GAZZA]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

No I only said this power is not free. So you can't buy it after spending all your points on a first power.

Which power isn't free? I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

No, it is not legal. Because in Huge's example after spending all your point to have a huge blast. You can't have 40END.

Again, I don't claim this character has 40 END. He has 20 END. I said that, explicitly. 20. Not 40.

 

He can, nonetheless, still fire off an 80d6 Blast. Having done so, he will have 0 END remaining and have taken (on average) 35 STUN damage, leaving him with -15, so he'll knock himself out. So tactically, it's a bad choice especially if he's facing multiple foes. But it is legal.

 

I quoted the whole text on page four ( integraly ) . And that's not what you were saying in your precedent reply. Read your own reply. You were talking about the character points.

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.

 

Vondy said that there was nowhere in the rules that said you can't spend 400 points on a single power. You replied "BR p14, the example". Now, I interpret that reply of yours to mean "It says on page 14 of the basic rules, under the example, that you can't spend 400 points on a single power." Is this not what you meant?

 

Assuming that is indeed what you meant, my reply was that despite the fact I don't own the basic rules, I am 100% sure that there's no way it says that. You have now said that you you quoted page 4 somewhere - did you mean page 14, or did you get the page number wrong?

 

As I said, I don't have the basic rules and there's no reason for me to (as I have the Hero System 6th edition volumes 1 and 2, which are a more comprehensive version of the rules). So I'm unable to tell you what page 14 of the basic rules says, and why it doesn't say what you apparently think it says. Someone else may be able to help there.

 

However, I don't think you even believe that. You are cycling between claiming that:

- You can't spend 400 points on a single power

- You can, but you won't be able to use it because you don't have enough END

- You can, and you can fire it off (knocking yourself out), and you won't let the poor player that didn't know that change his mind

 

Which of these three is your actual belief? Here's how it looks to me. It looks to me as if you were initially of the first opinion, that subsequent to the proof you were wrong you slipped into the second, and that now after further proof you have retreated to the last position. That's fine if it's true - there is no shame in admitting you were wrong, Hero is a moderately complex system, but you must realise by now that you are being amazingly arrogant in your presumption that the rest of us (including people that helped write the book you're quoting from) are wrong, and you are right.

[purple justice]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

I ever will be polite with you Gazza. So I invite you to do the same with me. I do not insult you.

So don't insult me. Who are you to tell me I am amazingly arrogant ?

 

- You can't spend 400 points on a single power

- You can, but you won't be able to use it because you don't have enough END

- You can, and you can fire it off (knocking yourself out), and you won't let the poor player that didn't know that change his mind

I defend the three position.

 

I remember you Hugh Neilson's reply for justifying my position after:

In any event' date=' the rule you cite does not prevent a character spending all his points on a huge Energy Blast. He has 400 points. He can put them all in an 80d6 Energy Blast.[/b'] He will target with an OCV of 3 (unless he spreads some dice to enhance OCV), move at DEX 10 and SPD 2, and the 40 END required will cost him all his END and 10d6 STUN (unless he makes it a 16 charge EB). It's poor character design, to be sure. But it's legal.

I said it is not legal. My reasons ? The example on BR P14. Jason pick only 50's CP worth's complications. And BR says he only has 375 CP to create Defender. So he can't buy a blast for 400 CP.

Some people argue the missing 25 CP can be recuperated by selling Normal hearing or Normal sight. But - according to the BR - more Complications do not provide extra character points to spend on the character creation ( including power ).

Then , Gazza , ask me to read the p.46 because (s)he explains me no need to have many END points to use the huge blast. STUN points will be used instead of END.

Okay , but Huge Neilson's character has 20END and 20STUN (bases values only because all the character points were spent in the blast ).

I answer Gazza that on p.46 the only thing which looks like its description is CHARACTERISTICS; a power increasing END ( or any other characteristics like STUN ). And as it is a power , it costs some points to acquire it. And Huge Neilson's character haven't points anymore.

And to finish I said Huge Neilson's character probably would be stunned or knocked out before using its huge Blast. Because to make 19- with 10d6 is improbable.

 

We know. We've also stated that we operate off the Full Rules' date=' which states that for every 2END you spend over the END you have you take 1D6 Stun Damage. In the full rules you don't need 40 END to fire a 400 Active Point Power. It's just recommended.[/quote']

That's okay.

 

Gazza , if you find me amazingly arrogant because I don't want the player changes his mind when he realizes that he couldn't kill in one turn, I disagree with you.

I think the player will understand furthermore if its character is quickly and easily killed even if (s)he has the 80d6 Blast.

It is only what am i were trying to saY.

 

politely.

[dmjalund]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

The example may show buying 50 points of Complications, but there is nothing preventing you from buying an extra 25 points of Complications (as the limit IS 75 points). This will give you the total 400 points to spend wherever you want. INCLUDING the silly example of a 80d6 Blast.

[GAZZA]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

I ever will be polite with you Gazza. So I invite you to do the same with me. I do not insult you.

So don't insult me. Who are you to tell me I am amazingly arrogant ?

That's not an insult. An insult would be if I called you stupid. Your tone is arrogant; you are, essentially, a beginner coming into a discussion with several experienced players and insisting that your position is correct despite enormous patience in explaining to you what is wrong.

 

And you started it by calling me a joker mate, so don't play the victim here. However, I'm happy to pull back to a more respectful tone.

 

I defend the three position.

That's basically fine then. That's correct. If only the rest of your reply didn't suggest you don't, in fact, subscribe to that position.

 

I said it is not legal. My reasons ? The example on BR P14. Jason pick only 50's CP worth's complications. And BR says he only has 375 CP to create Defender. So he can't buy a blast for 400 CP.

Ah, thank you for clarifying.

 

The list of complications I gave is 75 points, which is standard for a 400 point superhero. I flat out do not believe that the basic rules say the limit for total complications points for a 400 point superhero is 50 points. The example character may not be using all his possible points, but that doesn't mean that you can't. In the highly unlikely case that the basic rules do say that, then they are in error. That certainly isn't the case in the full rules.

 

Some people argue the missing 25 CP can be recuperated by selling Normal hearing or Normal sight. But - according to the BR - more Complications do not provide extra character points to spend on the character creation ( including power ).

You have misinterpreted this. There is a maximum number of complication points you can take and receive points for - but it is 75, not 50, for a 400 point superhero. If a 400 point superhero takes 100 points of Complications, he nonetheless only gets 400 points to play with (and not 425). But if he takes only 50 points, he's still allowed to take another 25 points of Complications to bring him up to a 400 point character.

 

Note that these limits change depending on genre; heroes (as opposed to superheroes) have different limits.

 

Then , Gazza , ask me to read the p.46 because (s)he explains me no need to have many END points to use the huge blast. STUN points will be used instead of END.

Note that I was careful to specify HSR6e1 pp46. That is, I'm not referring to a page number in the basic rules. I have said, many times, that I neither own the basic rules nor have any need to do so; I own the full rules.

 

I do not believe the basic rules contradict the full rules, but if they do clearly the full rules are the definitive source. I am unable to assist you in tracking down page number equivalents for the basic rules, however. If the basic rules don't say that you can spend STUN to power abilities if you've run out of END, then they have omitted it in the interests of conciseness. The full rules certainly permit this, as page 46 of Volume 1 illustrates.

 

Okay , but Huge Neilson's character has 20END and 20STUN (bases values only because all the character points were spent in the blast ).

I answer Gazza that on p.46 the only thing which looks like its description is CHARACTERISTICS; a power increasing END ( or any other characteristics like STUN ). And as it is a power , it costs some points to acquire it. And Huge Neilson's character haven't points anymore.

Right, because you missed the part where I said I was quoting from HSR6e1, not the basic rules. I don't even know how many pages the basic rules have, I'm certainly not able to give you page numbers for it.

 

In the full rules, it gives this information under the description of the END characteristic. It may or may not also do this in the basic rules. It is largely irrelevant anyway, for two reasons:

 

1. The basic rules are a simplified subset of the full rules; the full rules take precedence.

 

2. Even if you dismiss that, it is 100% legal to buy a power that you cannot actually use. It's silly, but it's not illegal. You could, for example, spend 400 points on Blast 240d6, only on your 18th birthday (-2). This is a 1200 active point power, that costs 400 real points. If you start your character off at 20 years of age, you will never be able to use this ability in the campaign. But it is technically still a legal character. Note that this power would require 120 END to use as well; that doesn't make it any less legal even though this character has only 20 END.

 

And to finish I said Huge Neilson's character probably would be stunned or knocked out before using its huge Blast. Because to make 19- with 10d6 is improbable.

You're confusing two different things here.

 

Getting stunned or knocked out before using the power is dependent on situation. It is true that most situations calling for use of this power will be combat, and that the foes such a character would face will likely go before such a character and knock him out or even kill him before he gets a chance to act. But they might miss. And he might just decide to use this power while he's shopping for cat food, where there are no foes around.

 

However, even if there are no foes around, or they all miss, or whatever, he will still almost certainly knock himself out by using the power - but it won't be before using it in this case. You pay the END cost (including burning STUN, if required) after resolving the activation of the power. He'll still get to do (on average) 80 BODY and 280 STUN to someone, assuming he hits (which is unlikely for a supervillain opponent, but fairly probable against an adjacent wall to the aisle where he's selecting tins of food for his cat).

 

Gazza , if you find me amazingly arrogant because I don't want the player changes his mind when he realizes that he couldn't kill in one turn, I disagree with you.

As well you might, but that's not why I find you amazingly arrogant. I find you amazingly arrogant in your insistence that you know better than everyone else even though they are much more experienced than you are, and even though apparently you do not even own the full rules.

 

Note that I think telling a player that he can't change his mind about a character to be a bit of a jerk move, but that's a completely separate issue. If you don't want players being munchkins, you're better off rejecting their character concepts and giving them some more reasonable guidelines rather than letting them play and then screwing them over. Setting up an adversarial relationship with your players is rarely a recipe for a harmonious game, unless perhaps you're playing Paranoia or some other comedy game.

 

I think the player will understand furthermore if its character is quickly and easily killed even if (s)he has the 80d6 Blast. It is only what am i were trying to saY. politely.

So we come full circle, and now you acknowledge that the character is legal? That's fine. It was a throwaway example of mine, not something I seriously expected to still be trying to explain 50 odd posts later.

 

I disagree that it's better to let the player try and fail rather than tell them in advance that "It's a dumb idea, here's why, and this idea would be better..." as apart from any moral considerations you're just wasting play time by letting him play that and then killing it off before he ends up making a more reasonable character. However, if your own style preference falls towards this, that's up to you of course.

[Tasha]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Many things are legal to build in the Hero System. You can do some wickedly powerful things with the power. The thing that limits how powerful a character is, is not the rules. The rules allow for many things that would be totally unbalanced in play. What keeps everything balanced is the Game Master. The GM decides how many points are available to build characters, How many complications they require, How many Dice of Damage can be thrown (ie Damage classes), How high character defences are and many other things.

 

The Powerlevel charts at the beginning of the book are a guideline for GMs to base their campaign off of. It does a pretty good job of setting those guidelines. So you don't have PC's showing up to the 400 char point Champions game with a 6d6 blast as their main power, when the campaign assumes a 12d6 average. As a GM it's your job to set the maximum, and average for Damage Classes, Defenses, Movement, Combat Value, Mental Combat Value, Dex, Speed, and the other Characteristics.

 

The point I am getting at is that the example you have all been arguing over is something no sane GM would allow in their game. The fact that it is a legal build is irrelevant. What is relevant is what a GM will allow in their campaign. In the case of the OP the amount of Combat skill levels. I have no issues with the number of Combat Skill levels people have as long as the OCV+ Skill levels don't exceed the campaign Maximum. I usually don't count Martial arts bonuses, and Penalty Skill levels vs this (though I tend to limit PSL's to 4 for Range and 3 for Called Shots on the Hit Location chart).

 

Another thing is that it's really hard to talk about powerlevels without knowing about what campaign we are talking about. ie In a Cosmic Champions game the GM may set DC 20 (ie 20d6 Blast) to be average and 24DC to be max. IN that case a 10d6 blast will be far underpowered for that campaign. For a "Generic" Champions campaign the Average DC is 12. In that campaign 20d6 Blasts are devistating. Both games are Legal by the rules.

 

We tend to speak in shorthand here when talking about the rule books. HSR 6e1 = Hero System Rules Sixth Edition Volume 1 ( Character Creation), HSR 6e2 = Hero System Rules Sixth Edition Volume 2 (Combat and Adventuring), HSMA = Hero System Martial Arts, HSB = Hero System Bestiary, HSEG Hero System Equipment Guide, HSG = Hero System Grimoire, HSAPG or APG = Hero System Advanced Players Guide, HSBR (or 6eBR) Hero System Basic Rulebook (none of use quote from here, we quote rules from 6e1 and 6e1, less confusion that way.)

[Tasha]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

The best way to learn how to play is to play. Buy a Genre Book. Since you are always talking about supers Champions would be a great choice. Dont' even worry about making characters yet. Open the book to the section on the Hero Team called "The Champions" (Champions 6e pgs186 -199). If solo playing, pick 2 characters, if playing with friends everyone pick a hero(ine). Read the character sheet and look up every power that the Hero has. Open up the section of your rules to Starting Combat and start a battle, every hero for themselves (or 2 teams). Battle it out till everyone is Unconscious. When you get to something you don't know, look it up.

 

If you are having fun, then Pick up Champions Universe and Champions Villains Vol 2 (team Villains). Have you players continue to play the Champions and make up a little plot about a bank robbery or something and have them face one of the Teams from the Villains book. Try to choose a team that has members that are around the PC's powerlevel. Keep the Villain team to as many members as the PC team has with maybe one extra member. Run the scenario. (oh as part of being GM, make sure you understand the Villain's powers. It never hurts to look them up before you start to play). Eventually your players will want to make their own characters. This is a good time to look at my character creation thread. Work with your players as they make their own characters. Make sure that they are strong enough to fight, but not so strong that everything is made easy.

[purple justice]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

I would like to thank you for the clarifying explanations.

 

However, even if there are no foes around, or they all miss, or whatever, he will still almost certainly knock himself out by using the power - but it won't be before using it in this case. You pay the END cost (including burning STUN, if required) after resolving the activation of the power.

That's not what I understood. I thought you spend energy / fuel before activating your power.

As well you might, but that's not why I find you amazingly arrogant. I find you amazingly arrogant in your insistence that you know better than everyone else even though they are much more experienced than you are, and even though apparently you do not even own the full rules.

Because I had the HSBR under the eyes and I only quoted it. And I thought some people here sticked to HSR 5th and adviced me whereas the r ules would have been changed.

So we come full circle, and now you acknowledge that the character is legal? That's fine. It was a throwaway example of mine, not something I seriously expected to still be trying to explain 50 odd posts later.

My main position always was " it is not legal to spend all your points , 400 in this case , in one thing and after to spend points you haven't anymore because you need fuel to use it ". To buy a car is legal , but to buy fuel with the money you haven't anymore is not legal.

And I understood - basing myself on HSBR 6th's example of the page 14 which was under my eyes - if your all points were 400 , 'only' a maximum of 325 can be spent for the rest.

you're just wasting play time by letting him play that and then killing it off before he ends up making a more reasonable character

You certainly right because I never play RPG.

 

We tend to speak in shorthand here when talking about the rule books. HSR 6e1 = Hero System Rules Sixth Edition Volume 1 ( Character Creation), HSR 6e2 = Hero System Rules Sixth Edition Volume 2 (Combat and Adventuring), HSMA = Hero System Martial Arts, HSB = Hero System Bestiary, HSEG Hero System Equipment Guide, HSG = Hero System Grimoire, HSAPG or APG = Hero System Advanced Players Guide, HSBR (or 6eBR) Hero System Basic Rulebook (none of use quote from here, we quote rules from 6e1 and 6e1, less confusion that way.

Yes, I did not know all the abreviation. Now I know it. thanks again.

 

The best way to learn how to play is to play.

I live near Paris. I must find someone who perfectly knows the HS Rules ( GM ) and speaking french and english and living not too far of course. And who'd accept to spend time to RPG and to explain me. A lot of conditions...

[secretID]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

I live near Paris. I must find someone who perfectly knows the HS Rules ( GM ) and speaking french and english and living not too far of course. And who'd accept to spend time to RPG and to explain me. A lot of conditions...

The French part will be tough, but you can try herocentral.com for play-by-post remote games.

 

I was under the impression that there are a lot of French RPGers - maybe there's a French site similar to Hero Central?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

OK, first off, catching up on 2-3 pages of added posts all at once, I think I see part of the disconnect. purple justice is misinterpreting the link between complications and character points. Continuing with the 400 point Super example, he has 400 points to spend on powers, skills, characteristics, etc. He must have 75 points of Complications. He DOES NOT use any of his 400 character points to purchase complications.

 

Viewed another way, he buys 400 points of abilities, and pays for them with 325 base points and 75 points of complications. If he only accepts 50 points of complications, he has only 325 + 50 = 375 points to spend, which I believe is the p 14 example.

 

Thanks, I already read BR. I know the base value of each characteristic. And some people here seem not to be in the same case.

 

I know it too.

 

And where will you find the 40 END per turn to use it ?

 

I will limit it "16 charges" which eliminates the END cost. I assume charges are in the basic rules.

 

Take an example to convince me it possible. Create your super character with its 80d6 Blast and I will prove you it is not possible according to 6th BR.

 

All characteristics set at starting values - no cost

 

400 Big Honking Blast 80d6 Energy Blast, 16 charges

 

Complications: [probably a bit off as I don't have the books with me - adjust frequencies and severities to compensate]

 

20 Hunted: Bureau of Stupid Character Designs (more powerful, frequent)

25 Appallingly stubborn and incapable of admitting he is wrong (all the time; total commitment)

15 Reputation (frequent; extreme) Idiot with glass jaw and big gun

15 Shoots first and asks questions later (frequent; strong commitment)

 

75 total complications

 

He won't move until DEX 10. Good luck to him. At least he has Stealth on 8- as an Everyman skill...

 

Blindness offers you CP like other disabilites above. And Blindness affects your OCV. So if you buy a 80d6 Blast with this kind of CP bonuses ' date=' you'll never touch your target.[/quote']

 

ASIDE: In 6e, unlike prior editions, you sell back your sight (offsetting points spent on other powers) rather than taking a complication for blindness (as a part of your 75 points required). This may not, however, be in the basic rules.

 

The maximum of your CP is 400. And a part of theses 400 have to go to complications. After if you decide to take disabilities for having 80d6 blast ' date=' that is your choice but your power is useless.[/quote']

 

Again, you do not BUY complications with your 400 points - they are separate and apart.

 

If you spent all your points in a 80d6 Blast , some of the numbers - so Base Value - given in this message is/are uncorrect.

According to 6th BR.

I don't know where come from the cost of STUN for example. But mathematically, the super hero probably will be stunned before using its power.

 

If the Super spends 40 END, he will use his own 20 END, leaving 20/2 = 10d6 STUN. He will be stunned, possibly knocked out. That happens after the power is used, so he knocks himself out using the blast. He still fires the blast and, unless it misses, almost certainly KO's the target as well.

 

I eliminate the END issue by placing a Charges limitation on the Blast. Practically, he may as well go with 4 or 8 charges, and save points to buy some other abilities. He's never going to get 16 shots off anyway. But he can legally spend all 400 points on a single power.

 

I hope this message will help me to be understood inspite my uneloquent english level.

 

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you place a lot of faith in your ability to read and interpret English while disparaging your ability to communicate in English to others.

[TheSouljourner]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Ok, I think we have figured out most of the confusions and miscommunications here.

 

1.) Points from Complications add to the free points you have, they don't cost points (so a character with 325 points plus 75 points in complications may spend 400 points on his character)

2.) The Basic Rulebook doesn't include the rules for using Stun to pay for END you don't have (I have both BR and the full rules, and confirmed this)

3.) You pay for END after using a power

 

I don't think we really need to keep hammering on these points.

 

I work with people who speak English as a second language every day, and I can totally understand the frustration on both sides when you can't get your point across. We just have to remember that no one is doing it on purpose, and even two people with the same native language can have trouble getting their point across.

 

On the original topic - I decided to simply give my players guidelines about what normal CVs should be in the campaign, and what different numbers of CSLs should represent for in-game skill. My players are pretty responsible, and so I'm hoping they'll take the guidelines to heart without having to impose hard caps.

[gojira]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Obviously I can always just say no, but that sounds so artificial. What is ok, then, 4? 3? 6? And what do I tell him when he says "but I paid the points"? Are CSLs that undercosted?

 

 

Anything can be unbalancing even if you "pay the points." Even powers without stop signs can be adjusted or deprecated by the GM. Yes, you do need to set a range for OCV which includes all CSLs for any given attack. That's why those ranges are given in the rule books.