Stunning enemies (and Dragons too!!)

[Dr Divago]

ok, i know it. Hero system is all about stun, and stunning is a fast way to finish the match

 

btw, i got a little problem... well... it's not a problem, more a little nuisance here

 

a player of mine made a spell. something not against the rules, something even less than most spell you can found in Grimoire and Grimoire II:

Holy Light Sword: HA 6d6 (9d6 w STR); Autofire (2 shots, +¼) [37 Active Points] OAF (rapier, -1), Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), Spell (-½), Extra Time (Full Phase, -½), Hand Attack (-½), Requires a Song Magic Skill Roll (-1/10 AP; -½)
[Active Cost: 37, Real Cost: 8, END Cost: 4]

as i said, is all in the rule: less than 40 AP, requires magic skill roll, spell limitation, full phase, focus, incantations, gestures, etc.

 

this, coupled with some PSL and CSL that made her not-so-difficult to aim at head

 

and today she got one single attack to a juvenile iron dragon, technically "one shot" them:

she hitted the dragon with both of attack (as i said, she got enough OCV, plus dragon are big and got low DCV, and was blinded so ½ DCV...)

and she got 30 and 35 stun damage

 

iron dragon got 18 PD, but head is STUN N x2 so the poor lizard got a total of 58 STUN damage

(30-18=12 -> 24 stun from first one)

(35-18=17 -> 34 stun from second one)

and the dragon goes down to less than -10 STUN

 

maybe i did something wrong in stun calculation, today i was a little tired so i did some errors, btw the "question" is

it is normal, acceptable, and "funny", to one-shot stun a dragon in a fantasy campaign? (players got around 210 char points so far... but very little magical items...)

 

as i said, is not a problem: with "just" 3 point (spell's cost are x1/3 in my campaign) every evil battle wizard could one-shot stun every chars in the party, but this will be funny?

or i just need to change a little something to made the game more lethal and less stunning?

(like increase PD/ED, or STUN for enemies and encourage player in using lethal force)

[Escafarc]

Re: Stunning enemies (and Dragons too!!)

 

Actually unless Autofire was bought(as a Naked Advantage) for the character's STR too it doesn't add and if so that would make it a 56 AP attack and cost 12 END with STR . As always you should adjust things to fit your players power level.

[Ice9]

Re: Stunning enemies (and Dragons too!!)

 

Actually unless Autofire was bought(as a Naked Advantage) for the character's STR too it doesn't add and if so that would make it a 56 AP attack and cost 12 END with STR

In 6E, it would add (but would be pro-rated), so with a 15 STR it would be 8.5d6 (and would require 19 STR to be 9d6).

In 5E, it would add for free, but only up to double the HA (which 9d6 is well within).

 

Maybe the dragon just needs more STUN, or Damage Reduction. You could also increase the PD, but too much of that will make most of the PCs attacks just bounce off - not too fun, usually. DR or lots of STUN lets them do some damage but not one-shot it.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Stunning enemies (and Dragons too!!)

 

Against a juvenile dragon, I might be willing to write this off as a lucky shot. I think the next thing to do is look at the stats for adult and ancient dragons and make absolutely sure that they're commensurately tougher: higher defenses, higher CON, more STUN/BODY, possibly damage reduction, maybe even some magical defenses in the form of damage negation.

 

Love to be a 'fly on the wall' when the PC tries the same trick on an 'Elder Wyrm' and it just sits there looking at her.

 

Embarrassed smile: "Funny, it worked last time... well, I must be going now!"

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Stunning enemies (and Dragons too!!)

 

I've always had problems with how easy it is to put down most if the "vanilla" write ups of big critters. I've more or less adopted Damage Reduction as a component of my Size Templates, tho when I shift to 6th I'll probably move to Damage Negation

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Stunning enemies (and Dragons too!!)

 

I would have expected the dragon to have Damage Reduction if it was meant to be a "solo" monster (meaning a challenge to a party of PCs). If you meant for it to be part of a group, DR isn’t as important.

 

Targeting PSLs should be rated as DCs, (not at 1 for 5 but 8 targeting PSLs is about +1/2 (+2 Stun Multiple)). HKA would have probably been even better for headshotting (x5 stun multiple), and +1/2 in increased stun multiple rather than autofire. So if it is broken, it’s not optimized to be broken.

 

If you are using the bestiary, make sure you add CSLs and defenses as needed.

[Dr Divago]

Re: Stunning enemies (and Dragons too!!)

 

well... juvenile dragons got 16 PD and 45 STUN while lesser got 20 PD and 60 STUN, same reduction (25%)

iron lesser dragon whould got 22 PD and 60 STUN so same shots vs lesser dragon would results in:

30-22=8x2=16x0.75=12

35-22=13x2=26x0.75=19

total of 31 STUN

it's ok, that does'nt one shot the lesser dragon

BUT

sure will stun him, made him fall if flying, lose next phase and maybe be finished in few segments

 

btw, the dragon is still a match. ok

the "problem" (that's not a real problem, just a question) is: it's funny to end an encounter with all stunned?

i mean

enemies too can shot at the head, hit with very powerful stunning attacks; and player will go stunned and not killed, and this could be funny for both players and gm

"unfunnities" could arise when all enemies got stunned and they need to go around on the battlefield and go killing the survivors, or ends up torturing them or capturing them and like...

dunno...

it seems like a weird thing for a fantasy game... (but could be fun too... honestly i can't say it's more or less fun than standard lethal fantasy...)

[Dr Divago]

Re: Stunning enemies (and Dragons too!!)

 

mmmhhh i think i lost you with the "8 psl means a +½" >_<

 

btw, yes i agree, HKA got more stunning possibilities, and this arise another big question about it:

assuming a 9 DC attack vs a 7 rPD / 12 PD (a plate-and-mail black orc)

- 3d6 HKA goes average 11 damage

11x5=55-12=43 STUN damage

11-7=4x2=8 BODY damage

- 9d6 HA goes average 33 damage (and 9 BODY)

33-12=21x2=42 STUN damage

9-7=2x2=4 BODY

 

mmmhhhh looks like there's something wrong... are'nt STUN (normal) damage supposed to be more stunnier than lethal ones??

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Stunning enemies (and Dragons too!!)

 

well... juvenile dragons got 16 PD and 45 STUN while lesser got 20 PD and 60 STUN, same reduction (25%)

iron lesser dragon whould got 22 PD and 60 STUN so same shots vs lesser dragon would results in:

30-22=8x2=16x0.75=12

35-22=13x2=26x0.75=19

total of 31 STUN

it's ok, that does'nt one shot the lesser dragon

BUT

sure will stun him, made him fall if flying, lose next phase and maybe be finished in few segments

 

btw, the dragon is still a match. ok

the "problem" (that's not a real problem, just a question) is: it's funny to end an encounter with all stunned?

i mean

enemies too can shot at the head, hit with very powerful stunning attacks; and player will go stunned and not killed, and this could be funny for both players and gm

"unfunnities" could arise when all enemies got stunned and they need to go around on the battlefield and go killing the survivors, or ends up torturing them or capturing them and like...

dunno...

it seems like a weird thing for a fantasy game... (but could be fun too... honestly i can't say it's more or less fun than standard lethal fantasy...)

 

Funny or not funny? Waif w/magic sword smacks dragon; knock it out cold Sure, that's hilarious. The next questions I'd ask would have to be "Is that appropriate for the campaign you're running?" And "How do you fit it into the overall narrative?"

 

If it's supposed to be a 'high fantasy' campaign with lots of drama, maybe that's not at all the kind of humor you want.

If it's an action/comedy type-thing, I'd say it's funny once, and the player shouldn't expect to get away with it all the time.

If it's a totally off-the-wall farce, then play it for all the laughs it's worth... and make the player notorious for beating up on those poor little helpless dragons!

[Tasha]

Re: Stunning enemies (and Dragons too!!)

 

Wait.

 

The Dragon was at half DCV due to being Blinded by something and was half DCV. Then you are compaining that the PC's took out their best attack that would have next to no chance of hitting the head normally and using it and getting a fairly average result. It sounds like the PC's used sound Tactics on a Juvenile Dragon. Heck, they could have done the same thing with Double attack (-2 DCV per attack 1/2 DCV Full phase) and with a Killing attack. You are blaming the Player for using their advantage for putting out 4x more damage than they usually do.

 

It's Normal, Expected, and Good for your Players to defeat the opponents you as GM challenge them with. Sometimes the Players will surprise you with their Tactical brilliance and your big bad will go down in one shot. Sometimes, you will think they learned tactics from the Keystone Cops (ie they are incompetent).

 

Next time perhaps the Dragon could have some Flash Defense, Many Reptillians have dual eyelids (ie like cats) to protect their eyes in combat. That would have brought the DCV back up. 25% Damage Reduction can help the combats go longer.

 

Also for the 9d6 attack, normal Hit location gives that attack more than a 50% chance to have the Stun rolled reduced by Half. Of course there are a few locations that bring that up to x2 that kind of balance it, but not enough to make up for the majority of 1/2 stun locations.

 

PS I usually cap PSL's vs Hit Location to 3. It allows for called chest shots, but doesn't make headshots easy.

[Dr Divago]

Re: Stunning enemies (and Dragons too!!)

 

Wait.

[snip and snap]

It's Normal, Expected, and Good for your Players to defeat the opponents you as GM challenge them with. Sometimes the Players will surprise you with their Tactical brilliance and your big bad will go down in one shot. Sometimes, you will think they learned tactics from the Keystone Cops (ie they are incompetent).

well, it's not really "used their tactics"

they always aim for head shots, with lot of CSL and PSL (ok for cap at 3 PSL)

flash was not really a problem, it's big and they got lot of CSL; plus, attack is autofired

problem is: it looks like stun damage is too much, for an high fantasy game, and they ends up stunning a lot of people and monsters too, and honestly i don't like they could so easily stun everything and everyone

on the other hands, they paid for a stunning (normal damage) spell so why don't use it?

Next time perhaps the Dragon could have some Flash Defense, Many Reptillians have dual eyelids (ie like cats) to protect their eyes in combat. That would have brought the DCV back up. 25% Damage Reduction can help the combats go longer.

of course damage reduction (i completely forgot them ) could help so also give them more STUN

those one where juvenile dragon; lesser dragon would be more dangerous opponents, and greater dragon almost fatal

BUT

problem stay: they could face "big evil knight of the evil reign" and just beat him to stun easily than killing them

Also for the 9d6 attack, normal Hit location gives that attack more than a 50% chance to have the Stun rolled reduced by Half. Of course there are a few locations that bring that up to x2 that kind of balance it, but not enough to make up for the majority of 1/2 stun locations.

sorry i don't follow you here x_x

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stunning enemies (and Dragons too!!)

 

of course damage reduction (i completely forgot them ) could help so also give them more STUN

those one where juvenile dragon; lesser dragon would be more dangerous opponents, and greater dragon almost fatal

BUT

problem stay: they could face "big evil knight of the evil reign" and just beat him to stun easily than killing them

 

He'll be harder to take called shots on, though. And why does combat have to end in death? I find the possibility a losing combatant is knocked out, rather than killed, is a feature, not a flaw.

 

sorry i don't follow you here x_x

 

Some hit locations result in reduced STUN, so normal attacks aren't omnipotent by any stretch.

 

A head hit that doubles normal stun also provides a 5x multiple for a killing attack.

 

I find the problem is more one that low DCV targets (who are commonly huge) are very easy to make called shots against. One solution would be to reach into the Automaton bag of tricks and buy large targets the "No Hit Locations" power. Combined with Damage Reduction, every attack effectively hits a well-protected area. Normal attacks have their STUN halved (just like a hand or foot hit) and KA's get a 3x standard multiple, halved making it effectively 1.5 (more like 2x since defenses apply before halving). Sure, you hit it in the head or vitals, but it's so huge that you can't really get past its defenses to really hit the vulnerable parts.

[Tasha]

Re: Stunning enemies (and Dragons too!!)

 

If DCV is the real issue then ignore DCV mods from Growth (or take a lesser Disadvantage from Large body). Buying PSL's vs Size or even DCV Levels can help.

 

Now IF you are using the Juvenile Dragon from "The Book of Dragons" then the creature already had 25% DR (with additional DR vs Fire).

 

What I was talking about in my last Paragraph was the fact that normal attacks when used with the Hit Location chart (when Hit Location is Rolled Randomly), has around a 50% of doing half stun. This huge disadvantage for Normal attacks is one reason that my players never use Normal Attacks in heroic settings (actually we house rule Hit Location so that Normal attacks don't roll on the Chart, but one CAN roll a specific location if they would like). So keep PSL's vs Hit location low, they are nice for KA's to keep the damage more fixed (by hitting the Chest a -3 OCV x3 KStun x1 NStun location).

 

Like Hugh pointed out your real problem is Low DCV Foes vs called shots. On truly huge targets you can say that PC's can't reach the Head Location due to it being out of weapon range. Of course with something that bites that will lead to delayed phases waiting for the dragon to bite someone.

 

When your PC's fight a Knight make sure the Knight has skill levels the compensate for his armor (and also use a Shield). Also a high speed (4 or 5) and fighting mostly defensively (blocks galore), will keep a man sized opponent challenging. Also, perhaps the Knight is an unholy knight with Defensive spells that boost Def, SPD and DCV. Doing the same thing with magic items will set you up to have unbalancing items in PC hands (unless you make the items distasteful for the PCs to use, like Unholy auras, nasty rituals for atuning the item to a new person etc).

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Stunning enemies (and Dragons too!!)

 

mmmhhh i think i lost you with the "8 psl means a +½" >_<

 

So, if they have 8 targeting PSLs, treat their attack as if it had a +1/2 advantage when looking at DCs. It's very similar to buying +2 Stun Multiple (going from x3 (average) to x5). Also, Killing Attacks are better at stunning because the smaller number of dice translates into a larger standard deviation. Higher randomization on damage is good for whichever side has more characters (in this case the PCs), although generically it is better for NPCs as the NPCs will show up in fewer fights, so if they streak once and win it is better for them.

 

My suggestion is to not use the dragons straight out of the book, and rework them based on your PCs and their abilities.

 

As far as ending up with all opponents unconscious rather than dead, that is a genre thing. In a fantasy game where the PCs would be out of character to execute all downed foes, my group uses a genre convention that they wake up after the PCs leave. When they wake up they realize the error of their ways and never show up again. If they reoccur again after being KO’d and left behind, then you just teach the PCs to execute everyone.

[Tasha]

Re: Stunning enemies (and Dragons too!!)

 

My suggestion is to not use the dragons straight out of the book, and rework them based on your PCs and their abilities.

 

This line above is probably the most important thing a new Hero GM should learn. ^^

 

Published characters are OK, but never are a 100% good fit for any given campaign. One should always go over Published Characters with an eye for how well they will challenge the PC's. Buying the Character Packs for the various helps this. As you can then very quickly tweak a character just before the game. Also you can quickly evaluate the character using the techniques I talk about in this thread http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/82091-My-character-building-technique-(How-to-build-Hero-System-Characters)

[Dr Divago]

Re: Stunning enemies (and Dragons too!!)

 

He'll be harder to take called shots on' date=' though. And why does combat have to end in death? I find the possibility a losing combatant is knocked out, rather than killed, is a feature, not a flaw.[/quote']yes i agree

but when differences are between killed in 10 segments and stunned in 1 segment _this_ is a flaw...

 

Some hit locations result in reduced STUN, so normal attacks aren't omnipotent by any stretch.

Oh. ok

nope they get no problem so far:

they never roll for hit location but always use the called shot. they also buy several PSL only to overcome called shot penalities

A head hit that doubles normal stun also provides a 5x multiple for a killing attack.

is 2x killing damage and 5x STUNx for killing attacks

I find the problem is more one that low DCV targets (who are commonly huge) are very easy to make called shots against. One solution would be to reach into the Automaton bag of tricks and buy large targets the "No Hit Locations" power. Combined with Damage Reduction, every attack effectively hits a well-protected area. Normal attacks have their STUN halved (just like a hand or foot hit) and KA's get a 3x standard multiple, halved making it effectively 1.5 (more like 2x since defenses apply before halving). Sure, you hit it in the head or vitals, but it's so huge that you can't really get past its defenses to really hit the vulnerable parts.

mmmhhhh

for really big adversary i could use "fighting vs big monster" rule, i mean you cannot head shot a giant while standing on ground

 

the problem still are for normal sized guy, final boss for instance

[Dr Divago]

Re: Stunning enemies (and Dragons too!!)

 

What I was talking about in my last Paragraph was the fact that normal attacks when used with the Hit Location chart (when Hit Location is Rolled Randomly)' date=' has around a 50% of doing half stun. This huge disadvantage for Normal attacks is one reason that my players never use Normal Attacks in heroic settings (actually we house rule Hit Location so that Normal attacks don't roll on the Chart, but one CAN roll a specific location if they would like). So keep PSL's vs Hit location low, they are nice for KA's to keep the damage more fixed (by hitting the Chest a -3 OCV x3 KStun x1 NStun location).[/quote']in my campaign they never use random hit location roll; they always use called shot or "generic hit at the body" (1)

(1) this is a rule i use to made thing simpler, they could always hit for the "generic body" hitting without hit location for standard damage vs average pd/ed

Like Hugh pointed out your real problem is Low DCV Foes vs called shots. On truly huge targets you can say that PC's can't reach the Head Location due to it being out of weapon range. Of course with something that bites that will lead to delayed phases waiting for the dragon to bite someone.

yep that's the problem :/

aside for dragons, most of time best attack are on bite/maws; additionally, most of the beast got no long neck so hitting the head is not difficult. i could argue this for a giant or a migdalar, but not very limiting for a wolf, bear or similar beast

 

plus, one of the char got a pair of magical gauntlet that make him grow and use long reach weapon, so really not a big issue (but he got very low dcv while growth and spend END every segment so he ends up easily injured every fight )

When your PC's fight a Knight make sure the Knight has skill levels the compensate for his armor (and also use a Shield). Also a high speed (4 or 5) and fighting mostly defensively (blocks galore), will keep a man sized opponent challenging. Also, perhaps the Knight is an unholy knight with Defensive spells that boost Def, SPD and DCV. Doing the same thing with magic items will set you up to have unbalancing items in PC hands (unless you make the items distasteful for the PCs to use, like Unholy auras, nasty rituals for atuning the item to a new person etc).

for magical item i keep it very rare; i argued they need to spend characther points and/or use independent. this will make magical items very expensive and, of course, very rare. btw, in 2-3 years of gaming they aquired few rare items

it's fantasy game so magic and magical item are good thing; however, i dislike dnd and videogame plenty of magical items, so i keep them veeeeeeeeeeeeery rare

 

as for block attacks, it work fine and honestly i never used it a lot. i need to use block, disarm and bind attack more often (problem is while 5 pc vs 1 villain, block are useless: i block one attack, 4 hit me, and i can't attack anymore so next segment is same thing...)

and block does'nt block magical attacks: warrior-mage of the party made a magical hand to hand attack (ha 6d6 2-shot autofire, special effect is an attack with her rapier surrounded by the light) and block does'nt work with it (or it works vs hand attacks? and what about "eb no-range"?)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stunning enemies (and Dragons too!!)

 

they never roll for hit location but always use the called shot. they also buy several PSL only to overcome called shot penalities

 

First, I'd expect the Big Bad to have the same PSL's and always go for the called shot. If it's a standard for PC's, why wouldn't it also be a standard for NPC's? If every PC has this, it seems reasonable that many NPC's, including city guard, soldiers and thugs, would also have some PSL's to offset called shot penalties. Surely the PC's are not, coincidentally, the half dozen or so people who are the only ones good at called shots across the entire world.

 

You can then design all characters on the basis that they will always be hit with a head shot, so they should have defenses, BOD, etc. designed to deal with that.

 

Better yet, what about giving characters DCV levels that only apply against called shots?

 

in my campaign they never use random hit location roll; they always use called shot or "generic hit at the body" (1)

(1) this is a rule i use to made thing simpler, they could always hit for the "generic body" hitting without hit location for standard damage vs average pd/ed

 

So eliminate the problem entirely - standard damage across the board, and no hit locations allowed. Seems like the characters get the best of both worlds now. Take average damage with no penalty, or take a penalty to deliver exceptional damage, so you are never at risk of under average damage.

 

plus' date=' one of the char got a pair of magical gauntlet that make him grow and use long reach weapon, so really not a big issue (but he got very low dcv while growth and spend END every segment so he ends up easily injured every fight )[/quote']

 

So I assume every opponent takes advantage of his low DCV to make called shots against his head. If it's the obvious tactic against a dragon, why isn't it equally obvious to their opponents?

 

Or buy your Big Bads an equal number of PSL's to offset multiple attack penalties. "The dragon lashes out with a Bite on one target, one strike with its front claws at each of two other targets, a wing buffet against a fourth and tail swipes the fifth. Any PC's still standing?" Also include PSL's for hit locations, and we should get a 1 phase TPK, or pretty close. After that,perhaps we have a discussion about how common we want called shots, both by and against PC's, to be.

[The Nexus]

Re: Stunning enemies (and Dragons too!!)

 

The first Fantasy Hero game I ever ran, I learned how unbalacing PSL's vs hit locations can be. I think Hugh Neilson has the right ideas. It's obvious that called shots are creating a problem in your game, although some of it is self-inflicted. You've given you players all the benefits without any of the drawbacks. Your players will average more damage than someone without your house rule because they never do less than "normal" damage. They'll never hit the hand or other low damage areas.

 

If you're using the characters (creatures) from published books, those characters don't take into consideration your higher damage average and have to be adjusted accordingly.

 

Personally I would have a talk with my players and explain you didn't realize how unbalancing called shots would be, and ask them to adjust their PSL's. If they resist that, then take Hugh Neilson's advice and start giving the NPC's PSL's and using Head Shots against the PC's. I think they'll see the light then.

 

P.S.

These forums become SO much easier when you lose that "New Memeber" status.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Stunning enemies (and Dragons too!!)

 

My group had headshot issues with dragons when we first started playing. The solutions we use are:

1) No hit locations when it makes sense

2) +8 DCV, only to avoid head shots

 

2) may seem cheap, but it works quite well to keep characters with targeting PSLs from casually headshotting large things with low DCV.

 

These fixes are not needed for things with high (or average) DCVs obviously.

 

Also, HERO has a "generic hit at the body" it's called Chest Shot and has a -3 OCV penalty. Basically what you did was eliminate the x1 and x2 STUN locations (for killing attacks), and replace them with x3. This moves the average higher, and thus you shouldn't be supprised that people take more stun.

[Tasha]

Re: Stunning enemies (and Dragons too!!)

 

Also don't forget that many larger creatures have HTH attacks that are AOE. Even that Juvenile dragon could have an AOE tail swipe. That tailswipe should be used to knock PC's off their feet. Oh and get that dragon out of the cave. Give the Dragon either a lake to swim in that the PC's cant easially attack into, or have them fly and do strafing runs on the PC's. Use the terrain.

 

For the Humanoid creatures fighting many foes. Flashes, Barriers (ie Forcewalls), and entangles work well to keep pesky PCs from ganging up on the big bad. Also MINIONs! Minions are a great way to keep the PC's busy. The minions doesn't even really have to be that tough. Just a large enough attack that will do body/stun to the PC's, enough OCV to hit at least 40-45% of the time, and lots of bodies. Also keep the Big Bad mobile. Whether he's on a horse, flys or teleports around. keep him moving away from the PC's. Good tactics will keep the PCs on their feet and make for a challenging fight.

[Dr Divago]

Re: Stunning enemies (and Dragons too!!)

 

First' date=' I'd expect the Big Bad to have the same PSL's and always go for the called shot. If it's a standard for PC's, why wouldn't it also be a standard for NPC's? If every PC has this, it seems reasonable that many NPC's, including city guard, soldiers and thugs, would also have some PSL's to offset called shot penalties. Surely the PC's are not, coincidentally, the half dozen or so people who are the only ones good at called shots across the entire world.[/quote']well, not for the guards, but ok for the big bad

imho, i prefer a plain +4 CSL with weapon than a +4 PSL only vs called shot. big bads' does'nt pay for the CSL

but, big bad are one, or few. and players are always all together...

Or buy your Big Bads an equal number of PSL's to offset multiple attack penalties. "The dragon lashes out with a Bite on one target' date=' one strike with its front claws at each of two other targets, a wing buffet against a fourth and tail swipes the fifth. Any PC's still standing?" Also include PSL's for hit locations, and we should get a 1 phase TPK, or pretty close. After that,perhaps we have a discussion about how common we want called shots, both by and against PC's, to be.[/quote']for the dragon, it's a multipower (dunno why is created this way) so he cannot make tail bash, claw and bite in the same round. ofc he could bite and wing buffet, but cannot wing buffet while flying :\

[Dr Divago]

Re: Stunning enemies (and Dragons too!!)

 

The first Fantasy Hero game I ever ran' date=' I learned how unbalacing PSL's vs hit locations can be. I think Hugh Neilson has the right ideas. It's obvious that called shots are creating a problem in your game, although some of it is self-inflicted. You've given you players all the benefits without any of the drawbacks. Your players will average more damage than someone without your house rule because they never do less than "normal" damage. They'll never hit the hand or other low damage areas.[/quote']

yeah ok.

but i also "inadvertitely" reduced normal stun multiplier for generic attack

i stated HKA will do same stun than killing damage while hitting at "generic body"

this was not really intentional, but an error during my first sessions... btw, it's still in use today

 

on the other hand, bad guys too never roll for hit location...

If you're using the characters (creatures) from published books' date=' those characters don't take into consideration your higher damage average and have to be adjusted accordingly.[/quote']

ok so... i need to increase STUN for every mobs?

Personally I would have a talk with my players and explain you didn't realize how unbalancing called shots would be, and ask them to adjust their PSL's. If they resist that, then take Hugh Neilson's advice and start giving the NPC's PSL's and using Head Shots against the PC's. I think they'll see the light then.

does'nt work.

really, talking to them does'nt work

 

i tried it some times ago for an high end reserve + force field, and still no resolution (now every mage got end reserve + force field and everyone go with net, whip, and entangle weapon or grab martial maneuver to use vs mages)

i tried it with deadly blow (everyone got deadly blow in the party) and i was able to remove it with the promise "no npc wil get deadly blow" (plus, menacing "if you don't remove it, every npc will get deadly blow" had same effect )

 

so far, this will not be solved "just talking to the player"... (1)

 

My group had headshot issues with dragons when we first started playing. The solutions we use are:

1) No hit locations when it makes sense

2) +8 DCV, only to avoid head shots

mmmhhh

maybe i'll use the dcv "only to avoid head shots"... x_x

(btw is a -2 limitation? or just -1?)

 

Also don't forget that many larger creatures have HTH attacks that are AOE. Even that Juvenile dragon could have an AOE tail swipe. That tailswipe should be used to knock PC's off their feet. Oh and get that dragon out of the cave. Give the Dragon either a lake to swim in that the PC's cant easially attack into, or have them fly and do strafing runs on the PC's. Use the terrain.

well, ok using the territory is what i try all times; if they are sneaking inside the cave and ambushing the dragon while he sleep, they could get him inside the cave. however, if it's the dragon who attack, he just flyby and use breath attack from distance

For the Humanoid creatures fighting many foes. Flashes, Barriers (ie Forcewalls), and entangles work well to keep pesky PCs from ganging up on the big bad. Also MINIONs! Minions are a great way to keep the PC's busy. The minions doesn't even really have to be that tough. Just a large enough attack that will do body/stun to the PC's, enough OCV to hit at least 40-45% of the time, and lots of bodies. Also keep the Big Bad mobile. Whether he's on a horse, flys or teleports around. keep him moving away from the PC's. Good tactics will keep the PCs on their feet and make for a challenging fight.

minions are cool

sure they can one shot the big boss, but they got also 100 orcs. ok they can one shot them but... hey... they can only made 1 attack for phase (more with sweep...) right?

 

(1) this group was first time i played hero; plus, sometime i did some mistake. huge mistake. and i say something not correct just because i don't whanna spend 3 hours of gameplay searching for correct rule. and then, i bear my errors for years, and player are arguing i change the rules everytime just to made things more difficult for them x_x

i know i know... sometime i'm complaining for nothing... sometime... x_x

[dmjalund]

Re: Stunning enemies (and Dragons too!!)

 

[sORRY TO BE NITPICKY]

the appostrophe in doesn't occurs between the n and the t

[/sORRY TO BE NITPICKY]

[Tasha]

Re: Stunning enemies (and Dragons too!!)

 

(1) this group was first time i played hero; plus, sometime i did some mistake. huge mistake. and i say something not correct just because i don't whanna spend 3 hours of gameplay searching for correct rule. and then, i bear my errors for years, and player are arguing i change the rules everytime just to made things more difficult for them x_x

i know i know... sometime i'm complaining for nothing... sometime... x_x

 

What my group does when this comes up is to allow the GM to do a spot ruling to keep the game going. Then Either one of the players will look up the correct ruling in the book, or we will wait till the end of the game to look up the correct rule. The only time that we will stop the game for a ruling is if the ruling will change whether a PC will die or not. Also sometimes who ever is the GM will at the beginning of the game announce that any changes to the way we are playing the game. ie "In our last game I ruled that Killing attack stun worked in x way. I have since looked up the rules and found out that I was doing it wrong. From now on we will be doing it the way it is shown in the book. That way is this...."