Dwarves with No Spirits

[Mister E]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

Thus' date=' only humans & halflings have both spirits & souls (ENDs & EGOs), and can Push. This makes them more vital as races.[/quote']

 

Rather than fully strip dwarves & elves the ability to Push, I'm going to give them a Susceptibility to Pushing.

[Mister E]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

It just occurred to me that, though technically spiritless, dwarves with souls are in possession of themselves (in contrast to elves), and possess immanent beings.

 

Elves, being soulless (& lacking possession of themselves), are transcendent beings.

 

[edit]: which reminds me to review the Inherent Advantage.

 

 

~ Mister E ("... more than just Persistent..." )

[Lucius]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

While I understand, or thought I understood, the meanings of the words immanent and transcendent, I think you just went over my head.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary goes to a Buddhist pizza parlor and says "Make me one with everything." And later goes to a dentist and refuses novocaine.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

While I understand, or thought I understood, the meanings of the words immanent and transcendent, I think you just went over my head.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary goes to a Buddhist pizza parlor and says "Make me one with everything." And later goes to a dentist and refuses novocaine.

They wanted to transcend dental medication?

 

And yeah, over my head, too.

[Mister E]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

To my mind, the agency of those being with souls (i.e., dwarves) is within the world (is immanent). They possess interiority & are fully ego'd that way.

 

In contrast, though weird (which is what prompted my earlier comment about a Turing test for superficial intelligence), the agency of elves is beyond the world. They possess no interiority as they should imho be more properly thought of as presence incarnate, sans common consciousness, operating independently as pure spirit... which is something distinct from having a soul to get by with.

 

This is all under the paradigm of the exclusive disjunction placed between having a soul or having a spirit... but not both... and not neither... at least for holy/sacred beings (e.g., PCs ).

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

To my mind, the agency of those being with souls (i.e., dwarves) is within the world (is immanent). They possess interiority & are fully ego'd that way.

 

In contrast, though weird (which is what prompted my earlier comment about a Turing test for superficial intelligence), the agency of elves is beyond the world. They possess no interiority as they should imho be more properly thought of as presence incarnate, sans common consciousness, operating independently as pure spirit... which is something distinct from having a soul to get by with.

 

This is all under the paradigm of the exclusive disjunction placed between having a soul or having a spirit... but not both... and not neither... at least for holy/sacred beings (e.g., PCs ).

Do you, perchance, have a theology degree?

 

Speak layman, please.

[Mister E]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

Interestingly, Hero does have an "official" cosmology of sorts....described in the Transformation power of all places.

 

All characters by default have a physical, mental, and spiritual aspect, that is, body, mind, soul.

 

I see the APGII adds a new 4th aspect: "Social" Transforms (PRE based).

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

There used to be an RPG called Arrowstorm or something' date=' that made some kind of soul/spirit connection to corporeal/non-corporeal undead, but I don't recall exactly how anymore...[/quote']

 

I suppose a little thread necromancy isn't entirely out of order here...

 

The RPG I was thinking of is called Arrowflight. I don't know what reminded me of the proper name, but it led me to this review from RPG.net that explains the connection:

 

And speaking of ghosts, I found the setting's rationale for ghosts and the undead to be awfully clever. When an individual dies, the person’s Spirit and Mana basically tell each other to go their separate ways -- Spirit to the divine realms, Mana to dissipate into the Web of Life. If you die with a Mana score of 0, nothing tells your Spirit to move on and you become a soul without a body -- a ghost. If, on the other hand, you die with a Spirit of 0, nothing tells your Mana to dissipate and you become a body without a soul -- a vampire or other undead creature.

 

Their use of terminology is a little different from what we discussed here earlier, but Arrowflight Spirit corresponds to what I was calling the soul, while Mana corresponds to what I called spirit.

 

Did you ever decide on how you were going to handle this, Mr E? How did it turn out?

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

Ooh...thinking about Arrowflight's cosmology in connection to this proposition that some races don't have one aspect or the other, it seems logical that these races would ALWAYS turn into undead upon death. So in this case, those without souls would always become wights or vampires or whatnot (probably necessitating cremation rituals upon death, or impenetrable/inescapable tomb/prisons), and those without spirits would always become ghosts or wraiths or whatever, unless there was some funerary ritual to send them on their way. "Hey, thanks for all you've done. We'll miss you, but it's time for you to go. Catch you later."

[Lucius]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

Ooh...thinking about Arrowflight's cosmology in connection to this proposition that some races don't have one aspect or the other' date=' it seems logical that these races would ALWAYS turn into undead upon death. So in this case, those without souls would always become wights or vampires or whatnot (probably necessitating cremation rituals upon death, or impenetrable/inescapable tomb/prisons), and those without spirits would always become ghosts or wraiths or whatever, unless there was some funerary ritual to send them on their way. "Hey, thanks for all you've done. We'll miss you, but it's time for you to go. Catch you later."[/quote']

 

Unless such revenants are simply part of the culture; the society could be a necrarchy. Or necrocracy? Manesarchy?

 

Corporeal undead could be zombies who form the backbone of a civilizations's military or labor force. And ghosts could be central to a religion of ancestor worship.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says, didn't the Dark Sun setting have Dwarves that became undead?

[Mister E]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

Did you ever decide on how you were going to handle this' date=' Mr E? How did it turn out?[/quote']

 

I got two of my friends to run a high fantasy character creation party. At the time we were using 5th edition w/ figured characteristics (which was problematic but interesting).

 

The first thing I did was say that dwarves had to sell back all of theirs PRE & END. The same w/ EGO & STUN for elves. Gnomes I forced to do both, in hopes of making them both extra easy to play, & INT oriented by default.

 

I ruled that only hobbits & humans could Push, and that that was one of their primary racial advantages.

 

The respective Automaton Powers (Takes No STUN...) I gave for free.

 

The general idea was well received.

 

One of the players wanted to play a human monk, the other wanted to play an elven swordsmen. No dwarves.

 

Immediately it became obvious that I was giving away too many points to the elf (compared to the human) from allowing the elf to sell its EGO & STUN down to zero with no serious penalty.

 

Furthermore, for the elf, INT (not PRE as I had hoped) was a super characteristic because INT was the character's de facto EGO (like a Computer w/ no EGO).

 

So I ruled that these attributes were "dormant" for elves, dwarves, & gnomes... & that the extra-points from selling them back were not possible... and that for elves, PRE operated as the de facto EGO.

 

Then the player making the human monk remarked that EGO & STUN were relatively large character point sinks, which was true. Merely not having to worry about buying extra EGO or STUN was a significant advantage, point-wise, for the elf.

 

This was illuminating to me, but I let it slide figuring I'd make up the difference somehow in-game.

 

Unfortunately, once everyone's characteristics were settled & skills had been purchased, the Powers section of the HERO book daunted the player making the human monk. He said, basically, that when he makes a character for an RPG, he can't be responsible for making content for the whole game at the same time.

 

And that was that. If I had to do it over again I'd do it differently. And I'd do it with 6th edition w/ all of its luxurious decouplings.

 

Since then I've been running AD&D 2nd edition as it is the thing my current local group is most familiar with.

 

Ooh...thinking about Arrowflight's cosmology in connection to this proposition that some races don't have one aspect or the other' date=' it seems logical that these races would ALWAYS turn into undead upon death. So in this case, those without souls would always become wights or vampires or whatnot (probably necessitating cremation rituals upon death, or impenetrable/inescapable tomb/prisons), and those without spirits would always become ghosts or wraiths or whatever, unless there was some funerary ritual to send them on their way. "Hey, thanks for all you've done. We'll miss you, but it's time for you to go. Catch you later."[/quote']

 

In the D&D cosmology elves don't die when they reach their official age limit. They travel from the prime material plane to the chaotic good-aligned astral realm of Arvandor. Arvandor & Olympus are virtually the same thing, sharing the same level of the same outer plane. This is "Arborea" in Planescape terms.

 

In Avandor, elves supposedly truly die at the age of 1200-ish.

 

Unless such revenants are simply part of the culture; the society could be a necrarchy. Or necrocracy? Manesarchy?

 

Corporeal undead could be zombies who form the backbone of a civilizations's military or labor force. And ghosts could be central to a religion of ancestor worship.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says, didn't the Dark Sun setting have Dwarves that became undead?

 

Dark Sun dwarves were psycho.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

I imagine that Dwarves with no spirits would be pretty unhappy until they manage to find a distillery.

[Lucius]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

I imagine that Dwarves with no spirits would be pretty unhappy until they manage to find a distillery.

 

I imagine Dwarves with no spirits would be restless.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary explains that they can't keep still