Dwarves with No Spirits

[Mister E]

I need some discussion on spirits & souls.

 

If you "unpack" material from old game books, you will find that there are arbitrary metaphysical differences between humans & demi-humans.

 

1) Humans & halflings have both souls & spirits.

2) Elves & gnomes only have spirits (& are soulless).

3) Dwarves only have souls (& are spiritless).

 

The one major way that these metaphysical differences play out in game can be seen in how certain spells (e.g., reincarnations & resurrections) relate to certain player races.

 

1) Human & halflings can be both reincarnated & resurrected.

2) Elves & gnomes can only be reincarnated.

3) Dwarves can only be resurrected.

[Mister E]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

What is the difference between souls & spirits?

 

In my game, dwarves buy down their END to zero, and both their STR & all their powers cost zero END. This can be looked at in 2 ways:

 

1) Dwarves are stoic beings. To them, physical existence is secondary to the psychic. "All is mind. Matter is nothing." Dwarves are thus beings of virtually limitless energy, and can sustain phenomenal activity far past what is logical. They are fundamentally fortified by will power. Endurance is no object.

 

2) Dwarves cannot Push. They are spiritless (no END).

 

In a like fashion, elves & gnomes buy down their EGO to zero, and get to use their INT for psychology rolls (like Computers). I don't have this completely worked out anymore, but basically... elves & gnomes cannot push either, because they do not have souls (no EGOs).

 

Thus, only humans & halflings have both spirits & souls (ENDs & EGOs), and can Push. This makes them more vital as races.

[Mister E]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

In this high-fantasy, supernaturally, belief itself (& faith) has the power to effect the real world. What the real world is may be debatable. There is more to existence than the prime material plane. In so far as inner & outer planar beings can have actual corporeal avatars (tangible bodies) so to can the inner & outer planes be actual corporeal "places" (& not merely abstract symbolic metaphorical allusions that exist in speech or "in the mind" alone).

[Mister E]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

If a body dies, for instance, it takes time for souls/spirits to travel about to their final destinations. These bizarre journeys are not beyond the scope of the game. Likewise, if one employs necromancy (to contact the dead) the success & difficulty of the task is largely determined by the length of time the being has been dead (how close they are to their final destinations).

[Mister E]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

So what are spirits & what are souls?

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

If I'm not mistaken, historically speaking, your soul is what makes you you. It's what carries all your psychology (so connecting it to EGO is right on target). The spirit is what makes your body live (so tying it to END is pretty appropriate as well). It's not really intelligent, but can form habits. When a person dies, their soul goes on their final reward/punishment, but it's possible their spirit could still roam the earth as a ghost. This also explains ghosts of (dogmatically soulless) animals. Somewhere along the line, this metaphysical hairsplitting disappeared.

 

It seems to me that, aside from being full sociopaths, elves, gnomes, and other soulless beings wouldn't have psychological limitations, having no real psychology to limit. If they have anything resembling a psych lim, it's a learned behavior more than a true obsession/phobia, and should be easily bought off when they learn other behavior. For example, if a soulless critter has a "fear" of fire, it's because it learned that fire is dangerous, but as they learn the proper handling of fire, the fear should fall away quickly.

 

There used to be an RPG called Arrowstorm or something, that made some kind of soul/spirit connection to corporeal/non-corporeal undead, but I don't recall exactly how anymore...

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

So what are spirits & what are souls?

 

In my games? Spirits are alcoholic beverages and souls are nonexistent.

[Escafarc]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

Remember that Gingers also have no souls:D

[Mister E]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

If I'm not mistaken' date=' historically speaking, your soul is what makes you you. It's what carries all your psychology (so connecting it to EGO is right on target). The spirit is what makes your body live (so tying it to END is pretty appropriate as well). It's not really intelligent, but can form habits.[/quote']

 

I'm glad you like the soul/EGO & spirit/END relation I made.

 

Socrates' soul/psyche (from the Republic) has 3 parts: logos (reason...deduction...); pathos (emotion... attitude...); & spirit/thymos (blood... fire... breath... "chi").

 

 

When a person dies' date=' their soul goes on their final reward/punishment, but it's possible their spirit could still roam the earth as a ghost. This also explains ghosts of (dogmatically soulless) animals. Somewhere along the line, this metaphysical hairsplitting disappeared.[/quote']

 

This is good.

 

So... if dwarves do not have spirits, then it stands to reason that they do not have spiritual ghosts that haunt the prime material plane (spirits separated from their souls). Dwarven corpses can be re-animated into mindless automatons, but no intelligent undead are dwarven. So we have:

 

1) Soulless & spiritless corporeal undead dwarves (skeletons & zombies).

2) Merely a new form of spiritless soul (truly dead dwarf off to its final destination).

 

Humans, halflings, elves, & gnomes... do have spiritual ghosts and are thus prone to haunting the prime material plane as intelligent ghosts:

 

1) Spirits separated from their souls in the case of humans & halflings.

2) Merely a new form of soulless spirit in the case of elves & gnomes.

 

There is something fundamentally different between different forms of death/undeath.

 

It seems to me that' date=' aside from being full sociopaths, elves, gnomes, and other soulless beings wouldn't have psychological limitations, having no real psychology to limit. If they have anything resembling a psych lim, it's a learned behavior more than a true obsession/phobia, and should be easily bought off when they learn other behavior. For example, if a soulless critter has a "fear" of fire, it's because it learned that fire is dangerous, but as they learn the proper handling of fire, the fear should fall away quickly.[/quote']

 

I like this a lot, too. Also, it simplifies the game (no psychology).

 

So... maybe they are like Computer Programs? Elves & gnomes in this sense are beings of supreme equanimity... if that is their way. "Faerie" class of minds? Prone to logic-traps (some fantastic version/expansion of Computer Programming)?

 

Goblins & vampires (also soulless spirits) can be fully psychopathic.

 

There used to be an RPG called Arrowstorm or something' date=' that made some kind of soul/spirit connection to corporeal/non-corporeal undead, but I don't recall exactly how anymore...[/quote']

 

Thanks.

[Mister E]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

In my games? Spirits are alcoholic beverages and souls are nonexistent.

 

Non-metaphysically speculative pragmatic Buddhism? In your game, does the non-existence of souls pre-suppose the non-existence of god-heads? Is there a cocktail called, "The Elven Vampire?"

[Mister E]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

Remember that Gingers also have no souls:D

 

Does a Ginger have a Buddha-nature?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

Non-metaphysically speculative pragmatic Buddhism? In your game' date=' does the non-existence of souls pre-suppose the non-existence of god-heads? Is there a cocktail called, "The Elven Vampire?"[/quote']

 

I'm not quite sure what you're asking. If you're asking 'does my game world have gods', the answer is no (though this doesn't mean there's no religion).

[Lucius]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

I need some discussion on spirits & souls.

 

If you "unpack" material from old game books, you will find that there are arbitrary metaphysical differences between humans & demi-humans.

 

1) Humans & halflings have both souls & spirits.

2) Elves & gnomes only have spirits (& are soulless).

3) Dwarves only have souls (& are spiritless).

 

The one major way that these metaphysical differences play out in game can be seen in how certain spells (e.g., reincarnations & resurrections) relate to certain player races.

 

1) Human & halflings can be both reincarnated & resurrected.

2) Elves & gnomes can only be reincarnated.

3) Dwarves can only be resurrected.

 

The way I recall it, in 1st Edition AD&D, a sentient being had either a soul or a spirit, never both, and always one or the other.

 

Elves, Half-Orcs, and the so-called "humanoids" such as Orcs, Goblins, Ogres, Trolls, etc, have spirits.

 

Humans, Halflings, Half-Elves, Dwarves, and I'm pretty sure Gnomes, have souls.

 

The major actual game consequence was that Elves and Half-Orcs could not be ressurrected.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary still thinks the best commentary on the subject is from Magician Humphrey in Piers Anthony's A Spell for Chameleon: Only beings that have souls, are concerned about them.

[Mister E]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

Socrates' soul/psyche (from the Republic) has 3 parts: logos (reason...deduction...); pathos (emotion... attitude...); & spirit/thymos (blood... fire... breath... "chi").

 

It is from this sense of thymos that the word 'dysthymia' comes from. Among other things, dysthymia is literally the imbalance of alchemical (fire, wind, air, & earth) humours in the body.

 

Accordingly, dwarves w/o spirits ought to be immune to attacks of dysthymia as they have no balance of humours.

[Mister E]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

I'm not quite sure what you're asking. If you're asking 'does my game world have gods'' date=' the answer is no (though this doesn't mean there's no religion).[/quote']

 

Very cool.

[Mister E]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

The way I recall it, in 1st Edition AD&D, a sentient being had either a soul or a spirit, never both, and always one or the other.

 

Elves, Half-Orcs, and the so-called "humanoids" such as Orcs, Goblins, Ogres, Trolls, etc, have spirits.

 

Humans, Halflings, Half-Elves, Dwarves, and I'm pretty sure Gnomes, have souls.

 

The major actual game consequence was that Elves and Half-Orcs could not be ressurrected.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Ah, okay. That is a significant exclusive disjunction. So what it is (supposed to be) is a difference of apprehending what it is (either a soul or a spirit, not both or neither).

 

The palindromedary still thinks the best commentary on the subject is from Magician Humphrey in Piers Anthony's A Spell for Chameleon: Only beings that have souls' date=' are concerned about them.[/quote']

 

Love it! I haven't read A Spell for Chameleon since the 6th grade. The only part of the soul discussion that I recall is the bit about cutting souls (which are infinite) in half, and ending up with two whole souls.

[Mister E]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

Continuing on the soulless spirits of elves & gnomes:

 

Ironically (at least to me), the word nirvana literally means, "to blow out," as in, "to blow out as a flame."

 

The metaphorical image of a flame (as the buddhic non-existent soul) being blown out is significant due to the perceived nature of fire in medieval philosophy. It was once believed that fire, when it was not present, returned to its natural "state" in the elemental plane of fire (phlogeston?).

 

It seems reasonable from this to assume that elven & gnomish spirits, upon death, wink out of the prime material plane & manifest back into some aethereal "inner" plane of spirit... the source of all spirit.

 

This spiritual source is thus like an elemental or energy plane. In it, spirit is the arche (i.e., all is spirit... & spirit is indistinguishable from all). Perhaps this is the aethereal plane itself (quintessence?).

 

Perhaps this is the soulless ghost land and spirits eternally cycle through it. This spiritual ghost land ought to be distinct from the outer planar fields that exist beyond the psychic astral plane (beyond space & time).

 

Perhaps this is the state of consciousness that is neither awake (nor dreaming) but rather asleep as if dead. Non-sentient life ought to fall into this spiritual realm. It could be like the Chinese fifth element of wood... only much more expanded to include sponges & jellyfish... maybe all biological mindlessness.

[Vondy]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

One way to handle the discrepency is to translate spirit into "aura" or "power." In other words, ones potential to do magic. Or, at least, flashy magic that isn't the twenty-minutes into the future forging techniques or rune-craft fantasy rpg dwarves typically do even if they aren't "spellcasters." In other words: soul is the colloquial soul, but spirit is the ability to manipulate forces beyond ordinary ken.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

Sociopathic behavior and effortless use of magic is pretty typical of elves and other fay type creatures in folklore. This is a pretty robust classification system apparently...

 

Although, in most folklore, dwarves fall right along with elves, etc...

[McCoy]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

Does a Ginger have a Buddha-nature?

Mu

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

"I don't know but I been told, a big-legged woman ain't got no soul."

[Lucius]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

Interestingly, Hero does have an "official" cosmology of sorts....described in the Transformation power of all places.

 

All characters by default have a physical, mental, and spiritual aspect, that is, body, mind, soul.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary recollects Andre Norton's words on the topic.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

Sociopathic behavior and effortless use of magic is pretty typical of elves and other fay type creatures in folklore. This is a pretty robust classification system apparently...

 

Although, in most folklore, dwarves fall right along with elves, etc...

 

Actually, at least the sociopathic behaviour part pretty much describes anyone in a classic fable.

 

Or was that a modern four-coloured comic? I forget sometimes.

[Mister E]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

One way to handle the discrepency is to translate spirit into "aura" or "power." In other words' date=' ones potential to do magic. Or, at least, flashy magic that isn't the twenty-minutes into the future forging techniques or rune-craft fantasy rpg dwarves typically do even if they aren't "spellcasters." In other words: soul is the colloquial soul, but spirit is the ability to manipulate forces beyond ordinary ken.[/quote']

 

I like this.

 

I equate PRE with "aura".

 

It seems a bit stiff to take PRE away from dwarves... but it's not like they were using it anyway. More simplification.

 

Dwarves: zero-PRE & zero-END.

[Mister E]

Re: Dwarves with No Spirits

 

Sociopathic behavior and effortless use of magic is pretty typical of elves and other fay type creatures in folklore. This is a pretty robust classification system apparently...

 

Indeed, yes. "Faeries be tripp'n."

 

Although' date=' in most folklore, dwarves fall right along with elves, etc...[/quote']

 

Yes... yes... yes... this reminds me of Tolkien, who I believe said something like, "Fairy tales are tales set in the land of Faerie."

 

[edit]:

Actually, at least the sociopathic behaviour part pretty much describes anyone in a classic fable.

 

Or was that a modern four-coloured comic? I forget sometimes.

 

I suspect 'lawnmower' is a cellar door.