Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

I just looked though the APG II PDF, which I bought on a whim. With the exception of the new time powers and Object Creation, there seems to be nothing in there that is Earth shattering. The useful content could have been put into about twenty pages and sold as an extra. I'd rather have the villain book. I know the printing set-up is different, but I'm talking about the time and energy.

[memorax300]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

What, seriously?

 

It's your hobby, it's their livelihood. If it makes financial sense for them to do something, they'll do it, and if it doesn't, they won't. You're not going to talk them into to doing something if they feel they can't afford to.

 

All you're doing is making yourself feel like you're doing something.

 

So your solution is to say nothing at all. Even when I as a fan feel they need to change something. Sorry to say I'm going to ignore that very unhelpful advice on your part. I'm not saying they have to change anything or everything just because I say so. I also feel they have been doing somethings wrong this year and as a consumer of their products I feel the need to tell them. Wheter you or they like or not. I let other companies know when I am both satisifed and dissastisifed about certain issues. Why should HG be treated differently.

[memorax300]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

Because they know not shipping the books isn't good business? I don't think they're under any illusions in that regard. But they are constrained by the resources available to them.

 

I know that. Yet now it's up tp HG to prove me wrong.

[TotalerKrieg]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

PDFs are a vital part of our business' date=' and grow every year as a percentage of our sales. When I say CV1 and 2 are mildly (Mildly!) disappointing in sales it's because I'm comparing them directly to our other Sixth Ed books, which of course also have PDFs. The Villains books so far are the lowest-selling books in the 6th Ed line, 11th and 12th place overall, with Star and Beyond still listed as "incomplete.". I'm not making this stuff up, guys. dw[/quote']

 

Well you should not compare a companion GM's book to a main line core game rules book, any 1st year grad student out of college could have told you that. Second you should have just made it into one large book of villains and been done with it, instead of trying to pull off the magic of 3 books that will never be a complete set because I have seen these kind of stallings and excuses from other publishers before, it always ends the same, a canceled book.

[TotalerKrieg]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

As to PDF's, I don't buy them and I don't care for people who do. I think they are a waste of time and money, as they are non-collectable, valueless pieces of trash in the long run, easily lost in a computer meltdown and hard to recover, my books are true value, I can resell them for money later on down the line, sometimes for way more when they are long out of print, allot of books gain value and become rare, pdf's do not hold this distinction, they are worthless trash in this regard. I will never see the value of these stupid pdf's, until they become legal to transfer and resell just like a paper copy book, otherwise to me they are just crap and a way for a business to make easy money for no work hardly at all on its poor customers, who pay like HERO charges extreme amounts for PDF's, that are almost the cost of a printed book, so why should I pay 2/3rds the cost of a printed book for a pdf and just pay a little more and get the book that GAINS VALUE in the long run over a worthless pdf? Riddle me this Batman! This is why I want my CV3.....Sorry for the rant but it's how I feel..

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

Well you should not compare a companion GM's book to a main line core game rules book' date=' any 1st year grad student out of college could have told you that.[/quote']

 

I thought you wanted them to publish it. This line of reasoning seems to suggest they would be foolish to do so.

 

Second you should have just made it into one large book of villains and been done with it' date=' instead of trying to pull off the magic of 3 books that will never be a complete set because I have seen these kind of stallings and excuses from other publishers before, it always ends the same, a canceled book.[/quote']

 

I suspect that "one large book" would have needed some content cut or it would be too large to be viable (as a paper product, anyway - a pdf's length can be pretty much unlimited).

 

So far, Hero seems to be committed to publishing the book. If they weren't, I suspect Darren would say so. DoJ has had no hesitation telling us certain books won't likely ever be made, and certain lines aren't going to get any more support, in the past. My guess is that either the first two volumes sold well enough to indicate it is worth DoJ's time and effort to publish, but not well enough to justify prioritizing them over the colour books released in the interim, or they aren't even economically viable, but the third book will be published solely out of loyalty to the fans. I believe, and hope, the latter is not the case - no one wins by DoJ making bad business decisions and ending up without the resources to continue publishing at all.

 

I'm not a big fan of .pdf's either, but I don't buy the books out of some hope they will appreciate in value. But hey, given the low sales on V1 and V2, the print run will probably be really small on V3, so this one might have a shot at becoming a real collectible, as I think about it. You should probably buy lots of extra copies if/when it does come out so you'll be ready to cash in!

[PamelaIsley]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

Yes, because gaming books are like stocks. They always appreciate and are fantastic investments.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

Yes' date=' because gaming books are like stocks. They always appreciate and are fantastic investments.[/quote']

 

But how do they compare to comic books? After all, a diversified portfolio is very important!

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

So your solution is to say nothing at all. Even when I as a fan feel they need to change something. Sorry to say I'm going to ignore that very unhelpful advice on your part. I'm not saying they have to change anything or everything just because I say so. I also feel they have been doing somethings wrong this year and as a consumer of their products I feel the need to tell them. Wheter you or they like or not. I let other companies know when I am both satisifed and dissastisifed about certain issues. Why should HG be treated differently.

 

This isn't a customer service issue. This is a financial issue, as they've made clear repeatedly. Complaining about customer service issues is good, within reason, because it can them fixed. But you can't help them fix this by complaining. They've already exceeded their obligation to you by even telling you as much as they have; they've given you a level of insight into their day-to-day business that you don't really have a right to.

 

All you can do by complaining about this issue is make yourself feel better, and maybe make them feel worse. If that's really your goal, hey, go for it.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

This isn't a customer service issue. This is a financial issue, as they've made clear repeatedly. Complaining about customer service issues is good, within reason, because it can them fixed. But you can't help them fix this by complaining. They've already exceeded their obligation to you by even telling you as much as they have; they've given you a level of insight into their day-to-day business that you don't really have a right to.

 

All you can do by complaining about this issue is make yourself feel better, and maybe make them feel worse. If that's really your goal, hey, go for it.

 

Though you have some good points, I will never believe that any business I support has no obligation to keep me up date on a product they promised, even if it is to say that they aren't making it any more.

 

Though it's an example not on the same scale, and DOJ seems to be handling their issues in a much more up front way, ask Netflix how that whole "We're just going to do what we want, and the customers will have to adapt" model is working.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

Though you have some good points, I will never believe that any business I support has no obligation to keep me up date on a product they promised, even if it is to say that they aren't making it any more.

 

Though it's an example not on the same scale, and DOJ seems to be handling their issues in a much more up front way, ask Netflix how that whole "We're just going to do what we want, and the customers will have to adapt" model is working.

 

On repeated occasions, DoJ representatives have indicated that they remain committed to producing the product, that the current situation is such that they cannot determine a definitive release date, and that they expect this to be a matter of weeks rather than months. The question is not whether they are keeping the fan base updated, but whether you believe what they are saying. This leaves two possibilities:

 

(a) They are telling the truth, so there is nothing further they can do.

 

( They are lying, so there is nothing further they will do.

 

Whichever one you believe, I don't see how further harping on them will influence the release date, other than possibly delaying it by distracting DoJ representatives from dealing with the printing issues to spend time responding to the comments in these threads.

[TotalerKrieg]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

I thought you wanted them to publish it. This line of reasoning seems to suggest they would be foolish to do so.

Wow...you really took that meaning out of context huh? And wrong! Buy comparing a main line rule book which everyone will buy (player & GM) sales will automatically be higher on the scale, compared to a GM based book only (a companion book that only a GM will buy)......That is what I was talking about.

 

I suspect that "one large book" would have needed some content cut or it would be too large to be viable (as a paper product' date=' anyway - a pdf's length can be pretty much unlimited).[/quote']

 

OK and Book 1 being over 460 pages isn't too big to be viable, ok your point is well taken...duhhhh. Come again? And yes, RPG books do appreciate in value, try and get a copy of some of the Star Wars Saga edition books without paying through the nose now, or BESM 3rd edition, don't give me that, try selling your pdf's, oh that's right, YOU CAN'T its ILLEGAL! My Point....

 

But to each his own and this thread is tiring, so I have said all I care to say, good day all......I shall have no more of it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

Wow...you really took that meaning out of context huh? And wrong! Buy comparing a main line rule book which everyone will buy (player & GM) sales will automatically be higher on the scale' date=' compared to a GM based book only (a companion book that only a GM will buy)......That is what I was talking about.[/quote']

 

To me, it makes good business sense to choose to publish the book with the greatest expected return first. That's the book with the highest anticipated sales. It makes sense to publish a book with lower anticipated sales only if it does not hurt the ability to publish books with higher anticipated sales, and if the expected sales will be sufficient to make publication profitable. Based on DoJ's actions and statements to date, Star Hero was prioritized over CV III because its expected sales were considerably better, and the expected sales of CV III are sufficient to justify its publication.

 

Your criticism that they "should have known" the villains books would not sell as well seems to support their actions. They have prioritized the book they "should have known" will be a better seller over the one they "should have known" would not sell as well. Are you suggesting that they should deliberately take an approach which reduces the company's profitability? I suggest we should all know that's not good business sense.

 

OK and Book 1 being over 460 pages isn't too big to be viable' date=' ok your point is well taken...duhhhh. Come again?[/quote']

 

I haven't looked at a page count for the three villains books together, but the two in hardcopy make a fairly big profile. As I' not privy to all details of DoJ's business plan, I can't state with certainty why the decision was made as it was. One huge book would have consumed more writing, layout, etc. time before going to press, which would delay any cash flows. It would preclude preparation of other books in between (or further delayed the benefits of Vol 1 and Vol 2). Presumably, it would have a larger printing cost paid up front before realizing any sales (often, one publication's sales provide the seed capital for the next project). Any of these issues could cause a single huge book to not be viable, regardless of whether it was physically possible.

 

And yes' date=' RPG books do appreciate in value, try and get a copy of some of the Star Wars Saga edition books without paying through the nose now, or BESM 3rd edition, don't give me that, try selling your pdf's, oh that's right, YOU CAN'T its ILLEGAL! My Point....[/quote']

 

Anything with a limited print run can certainly become valuable. I don't expect DoJ, or any publisher, has the goal of stimulating a collectible market by limiting their print runs. You prefer a hardcopy book. So do I, actually. But I buy books for their content, not their potential future value as a collector's item. Still, if you expect high appreciation, I stand by my original suggestion - buy lots of copies so you will be ready to cash in. Even if they reprint due to unanticipated demand, you'll still have "First Editions"!

 

To move even more off topic, I'm reminded of an article on comic speculation some years back. The author picked a month about ten years prior and started with the presumption a person bought one copy of every comic distributed through (IIRC) Diamond in that month. He computed the total cost. Then he looked at the bid price for those books now. Three were actively being purchased. One was in some demand at a discount below cover price. The second was, IIRC, being purchased at a bit over cover price. Then he pointed out that he could have deliberately selected a bad month. But then, the final comic in demand was one of the very early Alan Moore Swamp Thing issues. That was fetching a substantial multiple of its original cover price. If you bough every book on the market, you would not recover your original investment. If you spent the same amount on that one book, you made a substantial return. Why? Because the book was not selling well (limited print run) and was later noticed by the fans and became much more popular, so demand went up.

 

He did note that, had you been reading Swamp Thing at the time, you might have noticed this was pretty good stuff, and had the potential to attract a much wider audience. But if you just bought and bagged, you would never know which one had potential. His conclusion? Buy what you like to read - speculation is high risk.

[Guest Goradin]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

I buy the books to read them and play them. They are a very poor collection investment with PDFs and all.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

On repeated occasions, DoJ representatives have indicated that they remain committed to producing the product, that the current situation is such that they cannot determine a definitive release date, and that they expect this to be a matter of weeks rather than months. The question is not whether they are keeping the fan base updated, but whether you believe what they are saying. This leaves two possibilities:

 

(a) They are telling the truth, so there is nothing further they can do.

 

( They are lying, so there is nothing further they will do.

 

Whichever one you believe, I don't see how further harping on them will influence the release date, other than possibly delaying it by distracting DoJ representatives from dealing with the printing issues to spend time responding to the comments in these threads.

 

You have left out a perfectly viable option:

 

They mean well, but events may overwhelm them, so there is nothing further they can do.

 

As far as I can tell, they have been forthright in their commentary, which is appreciated, and I have have said as much MORE THAN ONCE. The thing that bothers me is when people try to tell me that I am somehow wrong or disloyal, or some sort of heretic, when I state my displeasure about something the company does.

 

The company trades upon the good will of a very small group of people. They have established a relationship that is something other than strictly commercial with the folks that consistently buy their books. Though not a cult, Hero fandom is definitely an insular community with some characteristics of a religion to some at times. Hell, I still buy books for a game system I haven't played regularly in years because I am rooting for Mr. Long and company. I have spent hundreds of dollars over the last ten or so years, just because I do not want to see Hero vanish from this Earth.

 

However, there is a dark side to our collective loyalty. Notice how people fly to the company's defense when any sort of criticism is leveled, or a anyone expresses even the slightest displeasure about something. It's OK to like something, but be unhappy about certain things about it. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing deal.

 

DOJ staffers aren't obligated to respond to me. They can certainly ignore me, or any of us for that matter. However, I take it as a sign that I am backing the right horse when they do. Heck, they could ban me outright. They are paying the freight on this message board after all. I hope that my behavior is civilized enough that I will not merit this, but I couldn't complain if they did. I take it as sign that the folks at DOJ mean well when they do not take such drastic action in response to criticism or questioning. To me it is a sign that they understand the nature of their relationship with their customers. It means that all the money that I spent on goodwill gestures over the years at least went to a good cause. They seem to be fighting the good fight in a pretty inhospitable business climate.

 

That doesn't mean that I am not occasionally unhappy with something they do, or that I should stifle myself if I have a question.

[memorax300]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

You have left out a perfectly viable option:

 

They mean well, but events may overwhelm them, so there is nothing further they can do.

 

As far as I can tell, they have been forthright in their commentary, which is appreciated, and I have have said as much MORE THAN ONCE. The thing that bothers me is when people try to tell me that I am somehow wrong or disloyal, or some sort of heretic, when I state my displeasure about something the company does.

 

The company trades upon the good will of a very small group of people. They have established a relationship that is something other than strictly commercial with the folks that consistently buy their books. Though not a cult, Hero fandom is definitely an insular community with some characteristics of a religion to some at times. Hell, I still buy books for a game system I haven't played regularly in years because I am rooting for Mr. Long and company. I have spent hundreds of dollars over the last ten or so years, just because I do not want to see Hero vanish from this Earth.

 

However, there is a dark side to our collective loyalty. Notice how people fly to the company's defense when any sort of criticism is leveled, or a anyone expresses event the slightest displeasure about something. It's OK to like something, but be unhappy about certain things about it. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing deal.

 

DOJ staffers aren't obligated to respond to me. They can certainly ignore me, or any of us for that matter. However, I take it as a sign that I am backing the right horse when they do. Heck, they could ban me outright. They are paying the freight on this message board after all. I hope that my behavior is civilized enough that I will not merit this, but I couldn't complain if they did. I take it as sign that the folks at DOJ mean well when they do not take such drastic action in response to criticism or questioning. To me it is a sign that they understand the nature of their relationship with their customers. It means that all the money that I spent on goodwill gestures over the years at least went to a good cause. They seem to be fighting the good fight in a pretty inhospitable business climate.

 

That doesn't mean that I am not occasionally unhappy with something they do, or that I should stifle myself if I have a question.

 

Agreed and seconded. I was going to respond to Hugh wthg a post of my own yet this pretty much sums it up. As long as I keep it civil and follow the rules I will post when it involves something about Hero Games i don't like. That is non-negotiablle. This thing about see/speak/hear no evil from certain segments from the gaming community when it comes to rpg companies they like does not impress me. They only want to see postive stuff said about a company and no negative. Last time I checked we were able to post both postive and negative on these boards. I see no reason to change.

 

I am impressed they take the time to personally respond to my questions as not many rpg companies do that very often. Still does not meant that as a company they do not make mistakes. As long as one is polite and civil one should be able to tell them about it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

Agreed and seconded. I was going to respond to Hugh wthg a post of my own yet this pretty much sums it up. As long as I keep it civil and follow the rules I will post when it involves something about Hero Games i don't like. That is non-negotiablle. This thing about see/speak/hear no evil from certain segments from the gaming community when it comes to rpg companies they like does not impress me. They only want to see postive stuff said about a company and no negative. Last time I checked we were able to post both postive and negative on these boards. I see no reason to change.

 

I see nothing wrong with posting positives and negatives. As you note, keeping it civil is key. That said, I fail to see what more DoJ can do to satisfy the complaints in this thread. The book isn't out yet. That's disappointing. The reasons it isn't out yet have been provided. They aren't going to change.

 

I'm unclear what the posters want or expect Hero to do. Yes, it would be nice to have CV III printed and on the shelves tomorrow. Given the choice between a moderate sales villains book and your key release for con season, would YOU prioritize this over Star Hero if it were YOUR livelihood? Moving forward, with the core rules (also colour books) out of stock, would you prioritize getting the linchpin to your game system back in print, or would you prioritize an expected marginal selling villains book?

 

I am impressed they take the time to personally respond to my questions as not many rpg companies do that very often. Still does not meant that as a company they do not make mistakes. As long as one is polite and civil one should be able to tell them about it.

 

I also am impressed with DoJ's responses. I do not agree that prioritizing books based on expected sales and importance to the company is a "mistake". I agree it is unfortunate the book has been delayed, but I cannot fault the choices DoJ has made. When CV III is printed, I'll be buying my copy, because the Hero product is consistently solid.

 

Unless DoJ has new information to share, I'd rather they spend their time dealing with their printer issues, clearing the backlog and producing new books than posting new variants on "when we have more information to share, we will share it".

[torchwolf]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

Wall of text alert:

I remember the wait for the 6E rules when that was delayed, and I also remember that while I was a bit impatient, I also felt some sympathy for DoJ who tried to do their best while everyone got riled up about that delay.

 

I can only speculate that at the time of the 6E1/6E2 printing, the deal with the Chinese printer seemed to open up the possibility of printing loads of full-color books at affordable cost, and plans were made for many such books.

Then, the situation changed altogether: delays (and possibly other issues) caused DoJ to switch printers, increasing their overhead and affecting all publishing plans, especially those for full-color books.

But, like I said, this is just speculation. The only thing I could say that would not be speculation would be this:

DoJ can only provide information based on what is known to them. They are most probably not gifted with powers of Precognition.

 

On the other hand... personally I think it's pretty annoying to wait for months for the final part of a trilogy to be printed, even if the reasons given are understandable.

If you compare with other publishers, though, it's not as if a delayed printing is unique in the field of RPG books printed in full color, and I tend to give DoJ the benefit of the doubt, assuming it'll get done when it gets done.

 

Personally, there is one main reason I haven't yet purchased the CV in book format (though I have the pdfs):

the best way for me to get physical books shipped to me in Sweden is to order directly from Hero Games, but I prefer to order several products at once; it's cheaper for me, the books are likely to arrive less mangled by my local postal service if the package is large and sturdy, etc.

So, I decided to hold off ordering them until all three were in print. If at least a few other people also waited (for whatever reasons) to order CV1 and CV2 until they could get all three (and/or the pdf package deals), that might skew the sales figures a bit (so feel free to blame me personally for the delay in printing).

 

Delays are bound to happen now and again, for whatever reasons. I can accept waiting more easily when I get at least general explanations.

Doesn't mean I'm not getting impatient myself though.

 

Just wanted to post my own, slightly ambivalent, view of the situation, not telling anyone how they should be feeling about it.

Once CV3 gets printed, I'll go back to waiting for Golden Age of Champions.

 

Note: I've recently read a few cautionary articles about Chinese manufacturers, including printers, needing to be actively checked up on to make sure they respect deadlines and time frames. While quite capable of producing high quality results, respect for deadlines doesn't seem to be a given, forcing companies who employ them to spend some time making sure everything gets done in time. Not sure how well known this was when 6E1/6E2 went to print.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

(so feel free to blame me personally for the delay in printing)

 

HE'S THE REASON! BURN THE HERETIC! BURN!!!

 

(okay, just kidding.)

 

The problem with Chinese printers is, an hour after you've read a Hero book, you find yourself craving another.

 

(Helpful hint -- CV1 doesn't go well with sweet and sour sauce.)

[memorax300]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

I think we are all imo impatient to get the books. So right now all we can do is be patient. I sincerly hope they can get more of their backstock in when they can. Less books in print avaliable imo means less money for them. And that is not a good thing.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

I think we are all imo impatient to get the books. So right now all we can do is be patient. I sincerly hope they can get more of their backstock in when they can. Less books in print avaliable imo means less money for them. And that is not a good thing.

 

Absolutely - clearly, they can't (and, I expect, aren't) sitting on their hands waiting for this to sort itself out. Sadly, one opportunity cost is probably Darren having (even) less time to possibly write that Golden Age Champions we hear about now and then.

[memorax300]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

As much as I want to see GAC I think their are other books that should get more prority. Not because it is not an interesting subject that imo it would not do as well as some of the other books announced for the rest of this year and the next.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

I think the other books will always get priority - if I understand correctly, Darren's job is production, amng other things, not writing, so writing GAC is a spare time labor of love.

[Darren Watts]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

I think the other books will always get priority - if I understand correctly' date=' Darren's job is production, amng other things, not writing, so writing GAC is a spare time labor of love.[/quote']

 

Alas, tis true. GAC is what I'm working on when I don't have other things to work on. These days, what with IPR and all, I usually have some sort of crisis going on, and when I don't right now I'm fitting in my share of Horror Hero. So GAC sits on my hard drive unloved for weeks or months at a time. It will be finished, some day- Lucha was the same way and four years later it did come out at last. dw

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

Please, please, please, Darren, tell me you've got a copy of GAC backed up somewhere. I don't want to wait more years for it because of a computer crash.