Sociotard Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 What are the rules for corporation ownership? I thought corporations (in and of themselves artificial entities) could own other corportations. Is there an explicit rule that says that a human has to be in there somewhere up the chain? Does it explicitly say that a corporation must be owned by either a human, a group of humans, or a corporation? I ask because of a cool story I just read in Asimov, called Kiss Me Twice, by Mary Robinette Kowal. In it, AIs face the typical problem of having few or no legally defined rights. The largest manufacturer of AIs has some sympathy for them, so it sets up each AI as a corportation. This means that the AI controls the actions of the corporation that owns the AI as an asset. Here is the city police AI, named Metta, explaining: Metta nodded. "though artificial intelligences have not been recognized as people, Jarrett Tovar, our creator, sets each AI up as a corporation. An AI that is not leasing its services is called a freelancer." "And you are ...?" "Leased. We call it indentured." She smiled. "The chassis are very expensive so this is a way to pay off our start-up costs when we first come into this world. Once my lease is up, I'll be able to freelance, but being in the Metta line it's more likely I'll renew the lease. I like my job and it requires a contract with accompanying vows in order to be granted full access to the city. Other AIs don't have that sort of need so may be more likely to go freelance." "Vows" being roughly similar to the three laws of robotics, in that AIs can't break them, except that the Vows are determined by contract, so not all AIs have the same vows. Anyway, I thought it was a really elegant workaround, as fictional ideas go. Corporations are artificial entities that have at least some human rights (thanks, Supreme Court). If AIs are artificial entities that do not, make them into corporations. So, is there any rule that would explicitly forbid this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 Re: Can a Robot own a corporation? What are the rules for corporation ownership? What Universe, what time? There are bajillion form of AI in bajillion SciFi Universes and without you nailing it down a little bit, there is no way to answer that question. Star Trek alone had at least 3 different Rulings just for Data, Data's Daughter and the Doctor form the Voyager. From the rules perspective: An AI is either a PC or NPC in Game Terms, and a such is subject to any Rules that work on a PC or NPC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobGreenwade Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 Re: Can a Robot own a corporation? There have been cats at the top of corporate ownership -- eccentric businesspeople leave their possessions to their pets in their wills. The holdings are put in a trust fund, and someone manages it on the cat's behalf. This, at least, sets a precedent that an AI can follow. Presumably the AI would manage the trust fund itself. The model would technically be somewhere between a human in charge and a cat in charge, though how close it is to one rather than the other would depend on a number of factors -- not the least of which is the legal system's view of AI and personhood (and, in the modern-day real world, there is no such opinion as yet). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 Re: Can a Robot own a corporation? Is there an explicit rule that says that a human has to be in there somewhere up the chain? Yes, at least in the US and as of 15 years ago when I was last academically studying accounting. Lucius Alexander Palindromedary Enterprises Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starcloud Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 Re: Can a Robot own a corporation? Is the robot a legal entity in its own right, according to the laws of the setting it is operating in? If the answer is yes, then yes, it can own a corporation. If the answer is no, then no, it cannot own a corporation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sociotard Posted May 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 Re: Can a Robot own a corporation? The whole point in the story was that no, AIs* do not have all the rights of humans. Setting them up as their own corporation was a workaround for that, since as of the early 21st century, corporations do have some rights. What Universe, what time? There are bajillion form of AI in bajillion SciFi Universes and without you nailing it down a little bit, there is no way to answer that question. Star Trek alone had at least 3 different Rulings just for Data, Data's Daughter and the Doctor form the Voyager. I was going for 'here and now, except somebody just invented hard AI'. I wondered how impossible the idea in the story was. Yes, at least in the US and as of 15 years ago when I was last academically studying accounting. So, pretty impossible then. *I'm avoiding 'robot', because in this particular story AIs are essentially mainframe-sized, although they can connect to and control robots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted May 6, 2011 Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 Re: Can a Robot own a corporation? The obvious recourse is to pay some hobo to be your "corporate officer". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted May 6, 2011 Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 Re: Can a Robot own a corporation? The main Problem is, that our justice system can't cope with "person of artificial/digital origin" right now. When they get usuall, maybe one or two generation after their invetion, the entire thing can be different. Especially once they become a serious consumer market of their own, suddenly giving them personal rights gets much more logical. This is an interesting story about with similar ideas (even deals with setting them up as cooperations and where free will beginns/ends), but it is long and spans a time of 20 years: http://www.subterraneanpress.com/index.php/magazine/fall-2010/fiction-the-lifecycle-of-software-objects-by-ted-chiang/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starcloud Posted May 6, 2011 Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 Re: Can a Robot own a corporation? Once an artificial person or artificial digital intelligence starts earning income/doing compensated work, politicians will see it as a currently untaxed revenue stream and will move to make it taxable. The Kazei 5 setting posits that after Replicates became common, one country (Australia) moved to recognize them as being like any other human, making them citizens if they were decanted in or moved to Australia, and thus also making their incomes taxable. I would think something similar would happen with AIs once the "OMG, killer computers!" fears wore off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted May 6, 2011 Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 Re: Can a Robot own a corporation? Once an artificial person or artificial digital intelligence starts earning income/doing compensated work' date=' politicians will see it as a currently untaxed revenue stream and will move to make it taxable. .[/quote'] It's already taxable through the owner even if the owner is exerting no authority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted May 6, 2011 Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 Re: Can a Robot own a corporation? Once an artificial person or artificial digital intelligence starts earning income/doing compensated work, politicians will see it as a currently untaxed revenue stream and will move to make it taxable. The Kazei 5 setting posits that after Replicates became common, one country (Australia) moved to recognize them as being like any other human, making them citizens if they were decanted in or moved to Australia, and thus also making their incomes taxable. I would think something similar would happen with AIs once the "OMG, killer computers!" fears wore off. The romanian government recently (2011) made magician (white and black) or witch an officcially recognized profession. Along with some others, like Astrologer, Embalmer and Driving instructor. It has no advantages, it just mean they are now taxable. And good old germany legalized prostitution quite some time ago, at least to the extent that it is now taxable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobGreenwade Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 Re: Can a Robot own a corporation? And good old germany legalized prostitution quite some time ago' date=' at least to the extent that it is now taxable.[/quote']I'm not sure they ever banned it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 Re: Can a Robot own a corporation? I'm not sure they ever banned it. Technically only in the GDR, but before 2002 Prostitutes and anyone "promoting prostitution" had problems: "Contracts" weren't valid (so you can't sue for the money), working out of your appart could get you thrown out, bars could be denied licenses (using bars as "front" for brothels was pretty common). That only changed with a one page law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.