Ragitsu Posted August 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? Replacing' date=' or at least supplementing parts of their brains, the parts that hear voices that no one else do, is exactly what it would take to cure my boys.[/quote'] That'd still be a cure. What I have in mind (more specifically) is an enhancement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? That'd still be a cure. What I have in mind (more specifically) is an enhancement. Like in: "No diseases, but let's upgrade it beyond DNA-Specifications anyway." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted August 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? Like in: "No diseases' date=' but let's upgrade it beyond DNA-Specifications anyway."[/quote'] Pretty much. Ridding one's self of Cancer or Multiple Sclerosis is one thing, but boosting one's body to be super-resistant to disease in general is another. Though, I envision some ultra-tech cultures might make mandatory genetic boosting prior to birth a requirement (in some fashion). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? That'd still be a cure. What I have in mind (more specifically) is an enhancement. What's the line between a cure and an enhancement? If a treatment for schizophrenia or Alzheimer's has a side effect of giving one a lightning calculator ability and eidetic memory, cure, enhancement or both? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted August 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? What's the line between a cure and an enhancement? If a treatment for schizophrenia or Alzheimer's has a side effect of giving one a lightning calculator ability and eidetic memory' date=' cure, enhancement or both?[/quote'] A cure implies a fix for a deficiency...a restoration towards a "normal" human average, if you will. An enhancement goes beyond the average, and possibly beyond human limits. Removing the possibility of a genetic disorder that would render one paraplegic later in life = cure. Enhancing one's legs to be three times as strong as the average man (despite they themselves being "average") = enhancement. That's not to say you can't have a cure that also has an enhancement attached to it, but it's not a requirement either. (I'm reminded of the scene from Gattaca in which a pianist was given more than ten fingers, as that is what his parents wanted him to be. It wasn't a cure, so it's definitely an enhancement). Of course, with enough cybernetics/bioengineering, the "average" will likely rise, and what we consider average today will be deficient tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? Of course' date=' with enough cybernetics/bioengineering, the "average" will likely rise, and what we consider average today will be deficient tomorrow.[/quote'] Exactly the point i was about o make. Enough people get eidetic memory as a side effect from cures, eidetic memory is the new norm, and lack of eidetic memory then becomes a defect. "Human limits" is a moving target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted August 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? Exactly the point i was about o make. Enough people get eidetic memory as a side effect from cures' date=' eidetic memory is the new norm, and lack of eidetic memory then becomes a defect. "Human limits" is a moving target.[/quote'] The terms still don't lose their meaning, though, and unless you're in a setting with extremely rapid technological progression, there will still be periods lasting years at a time, or even decades at a time, when standards of "average" for humans will persist. The rich need not apply (obviously). I was gunning for an answer with that in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? What's the line between a cure and an enhancement? If a treatment for schizophrenia or Alzheimer's has a side effect of giving one a lightning calculator ability and eidetic memory' date=' cure, enhancement or both?[/quote'] I'd say it's more likely that giving your unborn offspring eidetic memory and lightning calculator would have an increased risk for schizophrenia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? I'd say it's more likely that giving your unborn offspring eidetic memory and lightning calculator would have an increased risk for schizophrenia. In my case, they're not my offspring and the "unborn" ship sailed >4 decades ago. They're men in their 40's who have the emotional maturity of 13 year olds, and will the rest of their lives baring a miracle, medical or otherwise. Buddhist do not expect miracles. I decided in my teens to never have my own biological children, so I defer to others on any discussion for planing the next generation. The terms still don't lose their meaning, though, and unless you're in a setting with extremely rapid technological progression, there will still be periods lasting years at a time, or even decades at a time, when standards of "average" for humans will persist. The rich need not apply (obviously). I was gunning for an answer with that in mind. Apparently I misunderstood, I thought this was a discussion of would we accept these technologies in Real Life. "Normal" and "average" ONLY have meaning in relation to Something Else, and as the Something Else changes so do "normal" and "average." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted August 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? Apparently I misunderstood' date=' I thought this was a discussion of would we accept these technologies in Real Life. "Normal" and "average" ONLY have meaning in relation to Something Else, and as the Something Else changes so do "normal" and "average."[/quote'] Well, you did say "moving target", and in "real life", the target is not quite so fast in regards to cybernetic/genetic enhancements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? Well' date=' you did say "moving target", and in "real life", the target is not quite so fast in regards to cybernetic/genetic enhancements.[/quote'] Yet. But "average" IQ goes up about a point a decade. "Average" life expectancy has doubled since WWII. There are players in the NFL backfield now that outweigh the "average" lineman of two generations ago. "Human Limits" are not defined by cybernetic/genetic enhancements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted August 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? Yet. But "average" IQ goes up about a point a decade. "Average" life expectancy has doubled since WWII. There are players in the NFL backfield now that outweigh the "average" lineman of two generations ago. "Human Limits" are not defined by cybernetic/genetic enhancements. They're defined by humans, but they can still be broken with outside help: no human can lift beyond a certain weight (the point being defined by the world weightlifting/powerlifting record you see as "the best"), or run beyond a certain speed. Cybernetics and genetic enhancements can one day allow us to step past those lines, or, at the least, do so MUCH faster than normal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? No' date=' they're defined by humans, but they can still break them: no human can lift beyond a certain point, or run past a certain speed. Cybernetics and genetic enhancements can one day allow us to step past those lines.[/quote'] Well, they're more like asymptotic limits--no human will ever bench press 1000kg, but as time goes on they will incrementally creep up towards some unapproachable limit below that. Given a sufficiently sophisticated computer tech, though, we could probably create a personal "Matrix" where we are each gods of our own realms, capable of doing anything in a very lifelike virtual space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? Yet. But "average" IQ goes up about a point a decade. Since IQ is a measuring that get's adjusted every year so that 95% of all people will fall into "average of 70 to 130", it's not really a helpfull measurement for everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? They're defined by humans' date=' but they can still be broken with outside help: no human can lift beyond a certain weight (the point being defined by the world weightlifting/powerlifting record you see as "the best"), or run beyond a certain speed. Cybernetics and genetic enhancements can one day allow us to step past those lines, or, at the least, do so MUCH faster than normal.[/quote'] Yet weightlifting records continue to be set. Marathon record were set this year. But it looks like two years since the 100m record was broken. On the other hand, doesn't look like any records have been set in horse racing in the past five years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? I would say because we understand how the human body works and how to streamlien certain processes with continued medication and focussed training. But you should not foget that you have to work really hard to even get anywhere near those records. Bioengineering and Cybernetics are cheating, in a way. You can archieve characterstics way above your birth-gene-level with little to no training. You don't have to work any more for this than say, for your car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted August 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? Yet weightlifting records continue to be set. Marathon record were set this year. But it looks like two years since the 100m record was broken. On the other hand, doesn't look like any records have been set in horse racing in the past five years. Going by "real life": No human is going to lift 2 tons in two to four seconds, over their head. No human is going to run 45 MPH as casually as the average person (not Olympic grade athlete) does. No human is going to breathe underwater unassisted. No human is going to have the night vision of a cat, or the infrared vision (switchable, I hope) of a snake. Unless you believe the theory of evolution WILL take us there, these are impossibilities, or, at the least, changes that will take a very very very long time to occur naturally. So, again, would you get your children enhancements? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? Well, I don't have kids and don't expect to have any for the foreseeable future, if ever, but . . . why WOULDN'T I give my children every advantage I could? For that matter, why wouldn't I give MYSELF every advantage I could get? I have no intrinsic problem with the idea of replacing part or all of my brain with a computer, as long as I remain me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted August 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? why WOULDN'T I give my children every advantage I could? One reason I can see for this is that they may feel they didn't accomplish things on their own, or, in the case of some parents that would choose what they want their child to be, feel locked into a role that never had a say in. I have no intrinsic problem with the idea of replacing part or all of my brain with a computer' date=' as long as I remain me[/b']. That would be a copy. "You" would essentially cease to exist, though another version would be born. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? So' date=' again, would you get your children enhancements?[/quote'] If at the five year follow up, >51% of the clinical trial cohort is healthy and normal, I'd hock everything I own to get them the enhancement. Note the total absence of smilies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted August 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? If at the five year follow up, >51% of the clinical trial cohort is healthy and normal, I'd hock everything I own to get them the enhancement. Note the total absence of smilies. Would the enhancements be ones you find broadly useful, or would you tend towards more specific ones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? That would be a copy. "You" would essentially cease to exist' date=' though another version would be born.[/quote'] In your opinion. Sounds like another arbitrary definition to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted August 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? In your opinion. Sounds like another arbitrary definition to me. Not just my opinion, actually, and the computer wouldn't be the same set of grey matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? Would the enhancements be ones you find broadly useful' date=' or would you tend towards more specific ones?[/quote'] The ones that would cure their freaking schizophrenia. You're really not paying attention to this, are you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted August 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? The ones that would cure their freaking schizophrenia. You're really not paying attention to this' date=' are you?[/quote'] Actually, it is you that are not paying attention: cure =/= enhancement, especially when it deals with the scope of "real life" technological advancement and it's pace. Either that, or you are attempting to blur the definition a term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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