McCoy Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? Not just my opinion' date=' actually, and the computer [i']wouldn't[/i] be the same set of grey matter. Re: my earlier post. Perhapse this is where being a Buddhist helps. We believe that there is no Self' date=' and at the same time we believe in reincarnation. So if my on-line copy, my clone or the duplicate on the other end to the teleport shares my memories and perceptions enough to perceive the illusion of "self," I have been reincarnated in that form. Which is the original and which is the copy matters not when both are One with the Universe.[/quote'] So maybe not JUST your opinion, but an opinion, and arbitrary definition, I don't share. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? Actually' date=' it is you that are not paying attention: cure =/= enhancement, especially when it deals with the scope of "real life" technological advancement and it's pace. Either that, or you are attempting to blur the definition a term.[/quote'] No, you refused to draw the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted August 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? Re: my earlier post. So maybe not JUST your opinion, but an opinion, and arbitrary definition, I don't share. I deliberately kept theology out of the discussion. But...if you want something a bit more concrete, create a clone, be it biological or technological, while the original is still alive: is that so clear cut as a copy plus delete? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted August 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? No' date=' you refused to draw the line.[/quote'] First two sentences. Astigmatism is not a human norm. Fixing it is a cure, not an enhancement. Schizophrenia is not a human norm. Fixing it is a cure, not an enhancement. Paraplegia is not a human norm. Fixing it is a cure, not an enhancement. Decreased lung capacity is not a human norm. Fixing it is a cure, not an enhancement. Having vision better than 20/20 (when you don't have it), or even to the acuity of a hawk, is not a human norm. Getting it is an enhancement. Having a mental calculator that exceeds even the best minds in history, is not a human norm. Getting it is an enhancement. Having extremely strong legs is not a human norm. Getting them is an enhancement. Having five times the average lung capacity is not a human norm. Getting it is an enhancement. And so on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? First two sentences. Which you yourself refuted. Of course' date=' with enough cybernetics/bioengineering, the "average" will likely rise, and what we consider average today will be deficient tomorrow.[/quote'] And I believe the thread has now become an ouroboros, swallowing its own tail. I'm out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? The ones that would cure their freaking schizophrenia. You're really not paying attention to this' date=' are you?[/quote'] May I suggest, in return, not paying attention to him? I've had him on ignore for some time now, and catching your half of the interaction persuades me that I made the right choice. edit: seems as I was composing this post, McCoy was making his last contribution to the thread. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary wonders if attention being paid in only one direction creates an attention deficit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted August 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? Which you yourself refuted. And I believe the thread has now become an ouroboros, swallowing its own tail. I'm out. That something may be obsolete one day doesn't mean what happens now is insignificant. The terms still have meaning. I've had him on ignore for some time now' date=' and catching your half of the interaction persuades me that I made the right choice.[/quote'] No need to still be sore that I stated players that chose traits, on some level, would like them to become relevant during play (barring throwing darts at a dartboard with random ideas on Post-It notes). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? That would be a copy. "You" would essentially cease to exist, though another version would be born. Does not necessarily follow, and depends greatly upon how the transition is made. The human brain repairs itself and makes new neurons all through life. Neurons, come, neurons go. Neurons I used to have have been replaced by new neurons that didn't even exist before. Does that mean I'm not the same person I was five years ago? I don't think so, and (while I certainly can't speak for anyone else) I wouldn't expect anyone else to believe that this natural process results in the cessation of existence of a person and the creation of a new, separate being with the same memories. Now, if replacing a neuron with another neuron leaves me me, why would replacing that same neuron with a computerized circuit be any different? I don't believe that there's some magic property of greasy meat that provides personhood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted August 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? Does not necessarily follow, and depends greatly upon how the transition is made. The human brain repairs itself and makes new neurons all through life. Neurons, come, neurons go. Neurons I used to have have been replaced by new neurons that didn't even exist before. Does that mean I'm not the same person I was five years ago? I don't think so, and (while I certainly can't speak for anyone else) I wouldn't expect anyone else to believe that this natural process results in the cessation of existence of a person and the creation of a new, separate being with the same memories. Now, if replacing a neuron with another neuron leaves me me, why would replacing that same neuron with a computerized circuit be any different? I don't believe that there's some magic property of greasy meat that provides personhood. Again, if you were cloned/copied while still alive, I don't think you'd have so clear cut an answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? One reason I can see for this is that they may feel they didn't accomplish things on their own, or, in the case of some parents that would choose what they want their child to be, feel locked into a role that never had a say in. That would be a copy. "You" would essentially cease to exist, though another version would be born. In your opinion. Sounds like another arbitrary definition to me. Does not necessarily follow' date=' and depends greatly upon how the transition is made.[/quote'] Again' date=' if you were cloned/copied while still alive, I don't think you'd have so clear cut an answer.[/quote'] There is a nice comic strip that dealt with exactly that problem: http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2001-03-20 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? Again, if you were cloned/copied while still alive, I don't think you'd have so clear cut an answer. No, you wouldn't. That's why I'm stipulating a conversions process that doesn't have that problem. The philosophical community has been aware of the continuity problem (which applies to Star Trek transporters, too, BTW. To step on the platform is to commit suicide) for quite some time now, and there has been a lot written about it over the years. I am not, as you seem to think, ignorant of the issue. I would definitely NOT submit to an "upload" process that involved non-destructively scanning my brain, installing the copy in a robot body, then dumping me into an incinerator. There's also little point, IMO, to making memory backups of myself. Having said that, I still think that it would be possible to "hot swap" my brain out for something more durable without every shutting it down, such that at NO point are there two of "me", nor do I stop existing or even lose consciousness at any point, and THAT is the kind of uploading I'd go for. I hope it's just a case of miscommunication, but you've been protesting the kind of procedure that I'm already against and never suggested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? Having said that' date=' I still think that it would be possible to "hot swap" my brain out for something more durable without every shutting it down, such that at NO point are there two of "me", nor do I stop existing or even lose consciousness at any point, and THAT is the kind of uploading I'd go for.[/quote'] Are you certain the contunity problem isn't stil sneaking up on you then? Even when you only do it "step by step", with every step a part of you is copied and the meatbody equivalent discarded. For me this sounds like dying quite often, only to be revived somewhat modified every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? Are you certain the contunity problem isn't stil sneaking up on you then? Even when you only do it "step by step", with every step a part of you is copied and the meatbody discarded equivalent discarded. For me this sounds like dying quite often, only to be revived somewhat modified every time. That's an interesting question, and a fairly reasonable position. However, as I pointed out earlier, such a process is occurring in your brain right now--the only difference being that the organic bits are being replaced by other organic bits. The way I see it, if you choose to view the "step by step" uploading as "dying quite often", it should logically follow that we're all dying quite often every day, with some poor innocent soul waking up with our memories and our problems. At the moment, the only way I can see to avoid that conclusion is to attribute some "magical" property to the material used for the replacement bits, which doesn't sit well with me. The idea that I'm literally not the same person I was a while ago also doesn't sit well with me (although I might actually be quicker to accept that than the magic meat model), and together those two ideas lead me to believe that if you can replace the hardware without shutting down the software, identity has been maintained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted August 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? The stipulation sounds like a bit of a cheat, sorry to say. If anyone's interested in seeing this dilemma acted out, check out The Sixth Day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? There's also little point' date=' IMO, to making memory backups of myself.[/quote'] Depends. Are there people who depend on you, whose quality of life would lessen if you were suddenly not there? Who, if the Mk I were not available, would be better off with the Mk II rebooted from backup than with nothing? I doubt that cloning tech will ever be such that memories can be downloaded into an organic clone. But let's stipulate some magic such as Star Trek transporter duplication. If the copy is good enough that it cannot be told from the original, what's the difference? Some of us prefer not to get life philosophy from Philip K. Dick's drug trips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnaskar Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? Uploading is one of those things people can argue over until the cows come home (or until uploading becomes possible; which my AI professors seem to think is in the next few decades*). Personally I have no problem with destructive, last minute, or even post mortem uploading. While they create a "new" person on an engineering level, the end result is that there is only one me, and he is in the computer. It goes around the whole problem of identity by ignoring it, and the last two satisfy many moral arguments because the "original" was dieing or dead anyway. As for the more the more typical uploading (creating a digital "copy" while the original still lives), it feels iffy to me. Unless it's as some kind of backup (I'd rather have a "younger" version of me wake up after I die than leave nothing of me alive), I have a bias against creating a clone. While I'm certain I'd be a cool bloke to hang around with, there would be some envy involved with knowing that I would grow old and die while "he" would live forever. Hmm. There's a good plot for a game in that somewhere. Or a movie/book/videogame. * For once, I personally am more pessimistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted August 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? the end result is that there is only one me' date=' and he is in the computer. [/quote'] I imagine this wouldn't be quite so simple in terms of the law (inheritance...holy cow!) and societal rules (which aren't legal, but arguably just as important). Things may work out in the end, but there will definitely be rough patches in the meantime (however long this may be). Hell, cloning/copying could be made illegal altogether as a preventative measure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? That's an interesting question' date=' and a fairly reasonable position. However, as I pointed out earlier, such a process is occurring in your brain [i']right now[/i]--the only difference being that the organic bits are being replaced by other organic bits. The way I see it, if you choose to view the "step by step" uploading as "dying quite often", it should logically follow that we're all dying quite often every day, with some poor innocent soul waking up with our memories and our problems. In order for your Idea to work without the contunity porblem: - the replacing must be done at the same speed or instead of the normal neuron-replacing - the artificial neurons would have to behave like the normal ones (except for dying). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? - the artificial neurons would have to behave like the normal ones (except for dying). Obviously; that's kind of the whole point of the process. - the replacing must be done at the same speed or instead of the normal neuron-replacing I don't see how you arrived at this conclusion. Why would it make a difference if the neurons were replaced early? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? I don't see how you arrived at this conclusion. Why would it make a difference if the neurons were replaced early? Because you have to kill them then. Or, when they just add themself somewhere they would certainly start changing your personality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? Because you have to kill them then. Or' date=' when they just add themself somewhere they would certainly start changing your personality.[/quote'] I'd be interested too in how you came to that conclusion. Drugs such as Prozac grow new neurons, are any of them associated with lasting personality changes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? I'd be interested too in how you came to that conclusion. Drugs such as Prozac grow new neurons' date=' are any of them associated with lasting personality changes?[/quote'] Is it producing understructible, atrificial Neurons? Or "normal" ones that age and die? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted September 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? Interesting point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? Is it producing understructible' date=' atrificial Neurons? Or "normal" ones that age and die?[/quote'] Any reason other than carbon chauvinism that you ask? It's changing the hard wiring of the brain, as permanent as anything in the jellyware can be. Is there any non-magical reason that a silicon neuron is different than a carbon one that processes stimulus in an identical way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted September 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits? I see "magic" bandied around a lot, but really, at this point, much of the technology we're discussing is effectively magic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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