Flash Vs Darkness

[lifo]

Let's make an example with the classic Blinding Light power.

I can create this power with Darkness this way:

Darkness to Sight Group 1m radius, Costs Endurance Only To Activate (+1/4), Usable As Attack (+1 3/4), Recipient must be within Standard Range of the Grantor for power to be granted (15 Active Points);

And I will have a power that can affect the target as long as I want.

 

On the other hand with Flash, I'd have for the same points just mere 3d6, that in the most luckily of the events will grant me 6 segments of effect on the target.

 

Am I missing something, or is it Flash too expensive for what it does?

[Escafarc]

Re: Flash Vs Darkness

 

Yeah I do. If you do a search of the boards you will find a number of threads with different variations on how to handle this. I count the total of the dice not the Body and use that as "Flash Damage"(minus Flash Defence which cost 1cp for 2 Flash Defence) and at the end of every one of the target's phases they reduce that "Damage" by 3pts(you can increase this by buying extra Flash REC 1 for 1cp) and as long as they have any "Flash Damage' they are Flashed.

[Christopher]

Re: Flash Vs Darkness

 

Also, what is the common defense that negates that UAA? (6E1 355) I would say "Sight Flash Defense" is very high up on that list.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Flash Vs Darkness

 

Uh... wait, what? Darkness "Usable as an Attack?" Darkness is already an attack power, with Area Effect built in... that build does not seem "right" in any way.

[caris]

Re: Flash Vs Darkness

 

Uh... wait' date=' what? Darkness "Usable as an Attack?" Darkness is already an attack power, with Area Effect built in... that build does not seem "right" in any way.[/quote']

 

UAA is often use to make the Darkness "stick" to a mobile target like a character so the Darkness moves with that target rather than being stuck in the point in space where it is targetted.

[caris]

Re: Flash Vs Darkness

 

Let's make an example with the classic Blinding Light power.

I can create this power with Darkness this way:

Darkness to Sight Group 1m radius, Costs Endurance Only To Activate (+1/4), Usable As Attack (+1 3/4), Recipient must be within Standard Range of the Grantor for power to be granted (15 Active Points);

And I will have a power that can affect the target as long as I want.

 

On the other hand with Flash, I'd have for the same points just mere 3d6, that in the most luckily of the events will grant me 6 segments of effect on the target.

 

Am I missing something, or is it Flash too expensive for what it does?

 

Yes, but your target is now also harder to hit if the attacker doesn't have a special targeting sense, and anyone getting too close to the target will be blinded until they move away.

[Christopher]

Re: Flash Vs Darkness

 

Yes' date=' but your target is now also harder to hit if the attacker doesn't have a special targeting sense, and anyone getting too close to the target will be blinded until they move away.[/quote']

Unless you go for 1m Area of Effect attacks. But that may then be a unbalanced build.

Actually the power "as is" already might have to much efffect for it's points, but that depends: What are the defenses against the UAA?

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Flash Vs Darkness

 

I think your build is okay (I'd have to check the book for exact values, but that looks close), but there are a few other points to consider.

 

First, any UAA power has to have a way for the victim to shut it off. Flash "damage" doesn't.

 

Second, the victim may not be able to see out, but nobody can see the victim's exact location either, which makes targeting him more difficult. That might fit the sfx well, but with a Flash only the victim is inconvenienced.

 

Third, the GM has to okay a continuous power with Cost END only to activate. For defensive powers this isn't usually an issue, but as a GM I don't allow this for attack powers unless there is a predefined duration or some other limit to the attack power, otherwise it is just too abusive. You wouldn't allow a 1 pip KA NND Does BODY Continuous Cost END only to Activate would you? Same issue.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Flash Vs Darkness

 

Flash is 'fire and forget'; you have to maintain the Darkness field. If you get knocked out or stunned, or move out of range, the Darkness falls (unless you bought a lot of advantages on it, of course).

 

Secondly; unless you or your teammates have special senses, the Darkness UAA also protects the opponent because you can't see him either, whereas a Flash doesn't interfere with incoming attacks.

[Dr Divago]

Re: Flash Vs Darkness

 

Flash is 'fire and forget'; you have to maintain the Darkness field. If you get knocked out or stunned, or move out of range, the Darkness falls (unless you bought a lot of advantages on it, of course).

Secondly; unless you or your teammates have special senses, the Darkness UAA also protects the opponent because you can't see him either, whereas a Flash doesn't interfere with incoming attacks.

I agree darkness-blind is different from flash;

and darkness-blind give some disadvantage flash does'nt (reduced OCV to attack the darkness blinded guy, half DCV vs darkness blinded guy's attacks, you can't see past the darkness field, etc)

BUT

darkness-blind is way too cheap compared to flash-blind: to be effective for a turn Flash need 60 active points. Ok maybe you got extra lucky and 50 active points (10d6 Flash) does the trick. That's 50 active points.

and FD is only 1 point, so 60 active points flash could be counteracted by a 12 point FD

 

honestly, until today i assumed flash was for _phase_, i mean it lasted for every segment target's got a phase, so a 3d6 flash could hinder a slow guy for a turn; ok, my fault btw even still a single phase could be bad for a villain blinded (my pc one-shotted a lesser dragon 'cause half DCV was enough to try a called shot to the unarmored -12 hit location

but darkness is way too cheap

 

as for penalities: i agree that darkness come with the "you can't see the target either" package; and also, i use 5 ed where minimum AoE is 1"=2m and ok a human is full trapped inside darkness area so you can't see the target either

but what about a darkness field centered on the head (eyes) of a 16m long dragon??

[Christopher]

Re: Flash Vs Darkness

 

as for penalities: i agree that darkness come with the "you can't see the target either" package; and also, i use 5 ed where minimum AoE is 1"=2m and ok a human is full trapped inside darkness area so you can't see the target either

but what about a darkness field centered on the head (eyes) of a 16m long dragon??

I would say the bare minimum on defenses thaat negate that UAA should be:

Flash Defense

Light based Powers

Power Defense

 

Or the GM should just outright forbid them. Each UAA is GM-Approval only in th first place, so point efficiency, the rules and even potential hindering effects are secondary - it's just: "The GM says No".

[caris]

Re: Flash Vs Darkness

 

I agree darkness-blind is different from flash;

and darkness-blind give some disadvantage flash does'nt (reduced OCV to attack the darkness blinded guy, half DCV vs darkness blinded guy's attacks, you can't see past the darkness field, etc)

BUT

darkness-blind is way too cheap compared to flash-blind: to be effective for a turn Flash need 60 active points. Ok maybe you got extra lucky and 50 active points (10d6 Flash) does the trick. That's 50 active points.

and FD is only 1 point, so 60 active points flash could be counteracted by a 12 point FD

 

honestly, until today i assumed flash was for _phase_, i mean it lasted for every segment target's got a phase, so a 3d6 flash could hinder a slow guy for a turn; ok, my fault btw even still a single phase could be bad for a villain blinded (my pc one-shotted a lesser dragon 'cause half DCV was enough to try a called shot to the unarmored -12 hit location

but darkness is way too cheap

 

as for penalities: i agree that darkness come with the "you can't see the target either" package; and also, i use 5 ed where minimum AoE is 1"=2m and ok a human is full trapped inside darkness area so you can't see the target either

but what about a darkness field centered on the head (eyes) of a 16m long dragon??

 

IIRC, in 4th edition Flash was based on the targets Phases, and in 5th the switch was made to Segments. This seems to be part of a trend DOJ to break duration from Speed.

 

Yes, we can continue to find hypotheticals where the build that others have pointed out requires GM approval is more effective than an existing power. I don't beleive that this is the only case where such a build is the case. (Hmmm... Flight UAA has several advantages over Telekinesis, does that mean that Telekinesis is over priced?)

[Dr Divago]

Re: Flash Vs Darkness

 

(Hmmm... Flight UAA has several advantages over Telekinesis' date=' does that mean that Telekinesis is over priced?)[/quote']well

telekynesis is way more flexible: you can flight object, manipulate them , use a weapon to attack with it, and a lot more of possibilities you can't with Flying UAA

plus there is no "TK Defense" who will prevent you from being tk grabbed or tk shoved at much lower cost than tk

[Christopher]

Re: Flash Vs Darkness

 

well

telekynesis is way more flexible: you can flight object, manipulate them , use a weapon to attack with it, and a lot more of possibilities you can't with Flying UAA

plus there is no "TK Defense" who will prevent you from being tk grabbed or tk shoved at much lower cost than tk

I think it was a rhetorical question, pointing exactly that out.

 

Flight, UAA from the 6E1 book has these listed defenses:

Flight, Desolidifcation or Power Defense. And it's not even about using them, it's enough to have them and you can't be affected at all.

TK can be used to grab multiple targets simultaniously (very expensive for UAA). It can grab them at range. You can buy any normal and Martial Maneuver for TK, that won't work with Flight UAA (what is you STR with it?). Even if you could, Flight UAA is only as precise as TK without "Fine Manipultation" adder and with "Affects whole body". Maybe even less than affects whole body (no squeezing damage for example).

 

About "Darkness Flash":

As part of the defenses the GM can rule that "Blindning Darkness" can not work on targets it can't fully "engulf". So not useable against a dragon or other big monster (like the CU-Online Grond), or just someone with active growth.

In any way it has no range (wheres Flash has BPx10m, like any blast) unless bought with a +1/2 Advantage (wich is still pretty low, since it's based on the Base Points of the UAA).

There was already noticed issues with Duration (Constant vs. Instant with lasting effect).

I add that the Darkness, UAA build can be dispelled (and even very easy/cheap), the Flash is instant and not dispelable.

[caris]

Re: Flash Vs Darkness

 

well

telekynesis is way more flexible: you can flight object, manipulate them , use a weapon to attack with it, and a lot more of possibilities you can't with Flying UAA

plus there is no "TK Defense" who will prevent you from being tk grabbed or tk shoved at much lower cost than tk

 

That is much more a matter of what you define as "much lower cost" personal STR is significantly cheaper than TK and will fairly easily nuteralize the TK for purposes of grab at a one to one.

[Christopher]

Re: Flash Vs Darkness

 

That is much more a matter of what you define as "much lower cost" personal STR is significantly cheaper than TK and will fairly easily nuteralize the TK for purposes of grab at a one to one.

It's also less versatile than ranged STR (wich is basically what TK is).

Having 40 normal STR may only cost you half of what 40 TK-STR cost, but at range there are so much more things I can do. For some players TK can be all the power they need (and I don't mean beacause of the freebies they want, but because of what they can do with it).

For example 40 TK-STR can easily grab a dozen mooks at once, try that with your 2 Arms.

[Escafarc]

Re: Flash Vs Darkness

 

I don't have the book handy but I think unless you buy AoE on TK you can't grab a dozen mooks unless you Multi-Attack. It actually says that you are limited to your arm span when lifting multiple items otherwise.

[Christopher]

Re: Flash Vs Darkness

 

I don't have the book handy but I think unless you buy AoE on TK you can't grab a dozen mooks unless you Multi-Attack. It actually says that you are limited to your arm span when lifting multiple items otherwise.

You can't grab them simultaniously, yes (unless you use mutliattack or AOE). But you can hold one and Grab the next one. And then another one. Also, you don't have to split your STR between multiple targets the way you have to when using non-combat forms of TK on an area.

[Escafarc]

Re: Flash Vs Darkness

 

You can't grab them simultaniously' date=' yes (unless you use mutliattack or AOE). But you can hold one and Grab the next one. And then another one. Also, you don't have to split your STR between multiple targets the way you have to when using non-combat forms of TK on an area.[/quote']

 

Yes but in practice the END cost and the number of STR vs STR rolls tends to make that less effective in the long run.

[Christopher]

Re: Flash Vs Darkness

 

Yes but in practice the END cost and the number of STR vs STR rolls tends to make that less effective in the long run.

It's still the better way to grab a "handle with care" enemys - guys with Damage Shield. or guys with low STR, but strong short/hth range attacks. Or snatching foci on distance (may be easier than damaging them with a blast).