Sustained Modes ala "Dragon Age"

[Ravor]

I was thinking about how best to simulate a sustained power ala Dragon Age, ect...

 

For those who haven't played the game, they would cost END to activate (The END cost does not recover while the power is being used.) as well as make all other none sustained powers cost more END.

[Ravor]

Re: Sustained Modes ala "Dragon Age"

 

Hmm, any ideas on how best to simulate them?

[Lucius]

Re: Sustained Modes ala "Dragon Age"

 

Sustain Dragon Age ala mode: (Total: 21 Active Cost, 5 Real Cost) Life Support (Longevity: Immortal), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Uncontrolled (+1/2), MegaScale (1m = 100 km; +1 1/2), Cannot alter scale (-1/4), Usable As Attack (+1 1/4) (21 Active Points); Limited Power Only for dragons (-1), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (While maintaining spell, all other Powers cost X2 END (or add one multiple if already at X2 or more); -1), Side Effects: Ala Mode, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (When spell begins, dragons in the effected area are covered in ice cream; -1/2), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Suppress 5 END for duration of spell; -1/2) (Real Cost: 5)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary ala mode

[Christopher]

Re: Sustained Modes ala "Dragon Age"

 

I was thinking about how best to simulate a sustained power ala Dragon Age, ect...

 

For those who haven't played the game, they would cost END to activate (The END cost does not recover while the power is being used.) as well as make all other none sustained powers cost more END.

Actually I regard most computergame mechanics as "flawed" when compared to RPG mechanics. And I am a programmer.

 

The closest thing we got are Constant Powers. Since they are a constant drain and you have only so much Recovery, in a way it makes the other powers a lot more "costly".

[Lucius]

Re: Sustained Modes ala "Dragon Age"

 

To clarify: I see what you're looking or as two Side Effects. One is a Suppress (X) END that lasts as long as the Power is maintained, the other imposes a Limitation on all other END costing Powers that increases the END cost. I rate the first at - 1/2 and the second at -1.

 

If the second only increases END cost in a minor way - say, +1 END rather than X2 - I'd rate it at -1/2.

 

I find the first effect at least interesting, and it seems like a case of "expend the points then get them back but then have to expend them again right away to keep the Power going." It does mean that you can basically do it indefinitely if that's all you do.

 

The second effect I find more questionable. Why does this Power make all other END using Powers more END intensive? But if you want the effect, you can do it in Hero easily enough.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Persistant Inherent Palindromedary

[Ravor]

Re: Sustained Modes ala "Dragon Age"

 

Well, in Dragon Age, it is mostly to keep a character from using all of his "modes" at the same time, but to be fair, wearing armor does the same thing as a balance issue. (Just a minor clarification, the END spent doesn't come back instantly once the power is turned off, it recovers normally.)

 

 

For my purposes, I imagine that the power in question "weaves" mana around the character which in turn interfers with additional spells.

[Christopher]

Re: Sustained Modes ala "Dragon Age"

 

Well' date=' in Dragon Age, it is mostly to keep a character from using all of his "modes" at the same time, but to be fair, wearing armor does the same thing as a balance issue.[/quote']

That is exactly what powers with "Endruance to Maintain" do in Hero.

Example:

50 END, 5 SPD, 12 Recovery, one Constant power with 2 END/Phase and one instant with 6 END/use.

 

1) When not using the constant power, but firing the instant every phase:

2 uses/turn are covered by the Recovery. 3 uses are not. So endurance drops by 18 every turn.

 

2) Using the constant and firing the instant every phase:

The Constant one is "covered" by most of the Recovery, leaving only 2 REC for the other powers. So END drops by 28 Every turn.

 

Call it Mana, Stamina or "the thermal Limit of Mass Effect 1 guns". They all just limit how much a character can do in any given time period. The Hero equivalent is always simply Endurance

[ErikModi]

Re: Sustained Modes ala "Dragon Age"

 

The other measure of "Endurance" in Dragon Age is Stamina (for warriors and rogues), and their sustained modes have the same effect (making other abilities cost more Stamina, "suppressing" a certain amount of Stamina while in use.) I picture it as focusing some of your attention and energy on the sustained mode, meaning everything else you do is a little more difficult. Something akin to what Magneto tells Mystique in X-Men: First Class: "If you're spending half your concentration to look normal, you're only half paying attention to whatever else you're doing."

 

For instance, a Sword-and-Shield warrior has a Shield Defense sustained mode, representing his increased ability to hold the shield in a defensive stance to more effectively protect himself. While he's focused on maintaining this defense, it's just a little more difficult for him to swing his sword, bash with his shield, and so on.

 

And yes, there are many video game mechanics that are "flawed," in the sense that they function entirely based on the needs of that particular game. Take the Dark Forces games (Star Wars FPS games) for instance. The playable characters in these games have "shield generators" which block a great deal of damage when charged up. Trying to directly port such a shield system into an existing Star Wars tabletop RPG quickly results in characters who can walk into walls of blasterfire without so much as a singed eyebrow. This is because the shields in the video game are intended to allow the lone player a reasonable shot at making it through the increasingly challenging levels without being vaped, and the designers really didn't care about "balance" for the "real-world." Now, taking the IDEA of a portable, personal shield system and incorporating it into a tabletop Star Wars RPG is perfectly viable, but it certainly won't be the "hundreds of damage points" absorbing wall it is in the game.

 

In other words, porting mechanics from a video game to a tabletop RPG is really like importing anything from anywhere. . . it has to be altered to fit the system you're working with.

[gojira]

Re: Sustained Modes ala "Dragon Age"

 

Well' date=' in Dragon Age, it is mostly to keep a character from using all of his "modes" at the same time[/quote']

 

 

This could be simulated with a Multipower. Put 60 point powers in a 60 point Multipower and you can only have 1 going at a time. Increase the reserve to 120 points and you can have two powers running at the same time. Etc. VPPs could work similarly.

 

 

(Just a minor clarification, the END spent doesn't come back instantly once the power is turned off, it recovers normally.)

Don't have my books with me, but is there a cool down limitation or something similar? Lockout maybe? That would be an interesting limitation on a Multipowr. Lockout every time you switch slots.

 

 

All of this overlooks just plain old GM fiat. All spells in Valdorian age have an End Reserve and that reserve always has huge restrictions how it can be recharged. Normally you can only recover once per day, or less. Etc. Don't be afraid to declare "all magic works this way" and be done with it. Limitations are only important if some players don't need to use the limitation. If some mages have severe limitations, and some don't, then balance is important. If every one has the limitation, not so much.

 

 

For my purposes, I imagine that the power in question "weaves" mana around the character which in turn interfers with additional spells.

This still feels like Multipower/VPP plus a cool down of some sort would simulate it well, with the least amount of bookkeeping. As a special feature of the cool down period, it might "recover" 10 points of a multipower reserve per turn, or something similar, so 10 point powers unlock after 1 turn, 20 point powers unlock after 2 turns, 30 point powers unlock after 3 turns, etc. Again, I don't think I'd try to "build" this unless some players have multipowers with out this limitation.

[Christopher]

Re: Sustained Modes ala "Dragon Age"

 

Don't have my books with me' date=' but is there a cool down limitation or something similar? Lockout maybe? That would be an interesting limitation on a Multipowr. Lockout every time you switch slots.[/quote']

Yes, tehre is:

APG I 144 has the Limitation "Delayed use". Starts with -1/4 "Every 2 phases" and goes up the time chart from there.

[gojira]

Re: Sustained Modes ala "Dragon Age"

 

For instance' date=' a Sword-and-Shield warrior has a Shield Defense sustained mode, representing his increased ability to hold the shield in a defensive stance to more effectively protect himself. While he's focused on maintaining this defense, it's just a little more difficult for him to swing his sword, bash with his shield, and so on.[/quote']

 

 

This one here could work with skill levels. If you have HtH skill levels, and you allocate them for defense (DVC), then you don't have those points available for other options like swinging a sword (Strike) or bashing (move through, possibly).

[Ranxerox]

Re: Sustained Modes ala "Dragon Age"

 

Sustain Dragon Age ala mode: (Total: 21 Active Cost, 5 Real Cost) Life Support (Longevity: Immortal), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Uncontrolled (+1/2), MegaScale (1m = 100 km; +1 1/2), Cannot alter scale (-1/4), Usable As Attack (+1 1/4) (21 Active Points); Limited Power Only for dragons (-1), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (While maintaining spell, all other Powers cost X2 END (or add one multiple if already at X2 or more); -1), Side Effects: Ala Mode, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (When spell begins, dragons in the effected area are covered in ice cream; -1/2), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Suppress 5 END for duration of spell; -1/2) (Real Cost: 5)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary ala mode

 

Covering dragons in ice cream is cosmetic transform for which the user needs to pay points, not a side effect that saves the user points.

[Lucius]

Re: Sustained Modes ala "Dragon Age"

 

Covering dragons in ice cream is cosmetic transform for which the user needs to pay points' date=' not a side effect that saves the user points. [/quote']

 

It makes the dragons annoyed at the caster; that should probably be worth more as a Limitation than I gave it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary asks how you make a dragon float...

[ErikModi]

Re: Sustained Modes ala "Dragon Age"

 

This one here could work with skill levels. If you have HtH skill levels' date=' and you allocate them for defense (DVC), then you don't have those points available for other options like swinging a sword (Strike) or bashing (move through, possibly).[/quote']

 

Except it doesn't make the attacks any less accurate or powerful, it affects the fatigue and effort needed to make the attack (the stamina cost for it in DA terms, or the END cost in Hero terms.)

 

I was basically trying to point out that the "weaving mana" rationale only covers magical sustained modes, and a different, if similar, rationale is need for non-magical sustained modes.

[Christopher]

Re: Sustained Modes ala "Dragon Age"

 

Except it doesn't make the attacks any less accurate or powerful' date=' it affects the fatigue and effort needed to make the attack (the stamina cost for it in DA terms, or the END cost in Hero terms.)[/quote']

I think there is a chance that the alignment of CSL can effect Enduracne cost.

 

Asumption 1: Heroic Campaign

Asumption 2: 3 DC (Real) Weapon, 15 STR, 4 CSL

 

I think using 5 STR is the bare minimum. When the character uses CSL or Manevuers to boost the damage, he does not needs (and get's no benefit from) using more than the basic STR.

But, if he uses that CSL's to augment his OCV or DCV instead, he needs to use more STR (thus more Endurance Cost) to max out the weapon.

[Greywind]

Re: Sustained Modes ala "Dragon Age"

 

The playable characters in these games have "shield generators" which block a great deal of damage when charged up. Trying to directly port such a shield system into an existing Star Wars tabletop RPG quickly results in characters who can walk into walls of blasterfire without so much as a singed eyebrow. This is because the shields in the video game are intended to allow the lone player a reasonable shot at making it through the increasingly challenging levels without being vaped' date=' and the designers really didn't care about "balance" for the "real-world." Now, taking the IDEA of a portable, personal shield system and incorporating it into a tabletop Star Wars RPG is perfectly viable, but it certainly won't be the "hundreds of damage points" absorbing wall it is in the game.[/quote']There's a reason that learning knife-fighting was important in the Dune books, where personal shields are available.

[gojira]

Re: Sustained Modes ala "Dragon Age"

 

Except it doesn't make the attacks any less accurate or powerful, it affects the fatigue and effort needed to make the attack (the stamina cost for it in DA terms, or the END cost in Hero terms.)

 

 

Again, Multipower or VPP. An attack which costs either 10 or 15 for full end vs no end would allow you to run either the no end version or the full end version and say 5 points of FF as a "stance".

 

Except now things are starting to get really fine grained. I'm not sure that this would be fun. There's a reason why these sorts of things occur in computer games: you have a computer to keep track of this stuff. Players don't seem to like this sort of record keeping.

 

Also Endurance got de-emphasized in Hero a while back. Reduced End used to cost a lot more. Now it's pretty cheap, and not much differentiates a power that cost full Endurance vs one that costs none. My feeling on this is, again, that players don't like these sorts of fine grained distinctions, so it's probably best to not force it on them.

 

You can try it and let us know how it works out. I'd be interested to hear how a bunch of closely related powers that only differ a little bit by base cost and endurance cost is viewed by a group of players. But I bet not too well.

[Ravor]

Re: Sustained Modes ala "Dragon Age"

 

Hmm, perhaps the simplest solution would be to have a side-effect of supressing REC then...

[Folded]

Re: Sustained Modes ala "Dragon Age"

 

Been thinking about this, and have played a lot of Dragon Age. The issue seems to me to be twofold: What is being improved, and how does the 'reserved' Stamina/Mana get handled?

 

What's being improved is usually pretty straightforward. Either straight combat abilities (AID to OCV, DCV, Defenses or HTH/Ranged Damage Levels would pretty much cover it), or Magical ones (Unified Powers on all Magic SFX abilities would be a good start, with an AID that covers all of them at once, maybe?). Some Modes would also carry a penalty (Suppress SPD is the most obvious, but others are certainly possible). Side Effects, probably.

 

The reserve aspect is a little difficult, moreso because DA separates Stamina from Mana, while Hero just has END for all of it. There's no more END reserves, so I'm not sure how to split END into two pools that power different things. But the 'reserve' might work like this. Start with Costs END/Mana only to Activate. Add a Linked Suppress REC, Only to Prevent Return of Reserved END/Mana. Once the Mode is turned off, END/Mana will recover normally. Probably should have Increased END cost on it, as well, since this is supposed to take a noticeable bite out of your available power.

[gojira]

Re: Sustained Modes ala "Dragon Age"

 

Hmm' date=' perhaps the simplest solution would be to have a side-effect of supressing REC then...[/quote']

 

 

Or not worry about it.

 

I don't mean to sound overbearing here or anything, I'm just really blase about the idea of modeling every last nuance of a computer game. I think some thought up thread about just charging End for it would simulate "using more End" while a particular stance is running. Steve's done this himself in various settings. For example, spells in Hudson City Shadows are supposed to be tiring. Players aren't allowed to buy them to 0 End.

 

You could do the same for your Sustained Powers. Require them to cost End, and limit the use of any Reduced Endurance modifier. Consider requiring Increased Endurance Cost. That's just exactly what Steve did for those Urban Fantasy spells.

 

That's what I would do, primarily to make it as easy on me to GM as possible. Or if I could think of something easier, I'd do that.

[Folded]

Re: Sustained Modes ala "Dragon Age"

 

Just occurred to me that Multiform might be the solution. Build several versions of the character with different modes, and switch as necessary. That also limits the 'how many at once' issue. Sort of like the multi-mode Power Armor builds out there.

[Christopher]

Re: Sustained Modes ala "Dragon Age"

 

There's no more END reserves' date=' so I'm not sure how to split END into two pools that power different things.[/quote']

Endurance Reserves still exists. 6E1 205.

 

Just occurred to me that Multiform might be the solution. Build several versions of the character with different modes' date=' and switch as necessary. That also limits the 'how many at once' issue. Sort of like the multi-mode Power Armor builds out there.[/quote']

Multiforms are hardly worth the effort for such a small thing.

[Folded]

Re: Sustained Modes ala "Dragon Age"

 

Endurance Reserves still exists. 6E1 205.

 

My mistake, I was under the impression that they had been removed (they're not listed in BR). I'd swear I saw someone complaining about that elsewhere on the board. That simplifies the END/Mana split, then.

 

 

Multiforms are hardly worth the effort for such a small thing.

 

For the minor Modes, certainly. But some of the stuff in DA represented a significant increase in certain types of power. Especially if the plan is to use the basic idea from DA and expand on it, Multiform might be easier than a complicated Side Effects/Suppress/etc setup.

[Christopher]

Re: Sustained Modes ala "Dragon Age"

 

My mistake' date=' I was under the impression that they had been removed (they're not listed in BR). I'd swear I saw someone complaining about that elsewhere on the board. That simplifies the END/Mana split, then.[/quote']

The are not in the Index, but on Page 40 in the "What's in the full Rules" Sideabar.

 

Mutliforms might be the right answer for big changes. But they are also a lot of extra paper/files.