Potential issues with a Matrix like campaign premise

[phoenix240]

I'm posting this for a friend who's not a board member. He's in the initial planning stages for a setting that will involve a premise similar to the Matrix, specifically that humanity is being held in a "virtual reality", a simulated existence generated and maintained by a possible hostile force.

 

As such he wanted to get some opinion on what issues may have put people off the Matrix films. What things felt like plot holes or were insignificantly explained and let to issues with suspension of disbelief. How could things have been done differently to make the setting more believable (though not necessarily "realistic").

[Manic Typist]

Re: Potential issues with a Matrix like campaign premise

 

Why humans are used as batteries as opposed to nuclear power. Why the machines need to reproduce at all.

 

But that is very specific to the Matrix.

[Susano]

Re: Potential issues with a Matrix like campaign premise

 

Why humans are used as batteries as opposed to nuclear power. Why the machines need to reproduce at all.

 

But that is very specific to the Matrix.

 

Some of that is due to studio meddling. Initially, the humans were all parts of a huge super computer.

[csyphrett]

Re: Potential issues with a Matrix like campaign premise

 

A lot of Zion and human tech is large and clunky while the machines are semi animalistic. I think the human tech would be a little sleeker, and they would have totally ripped the squids off for propulsion and so forth.

 

The open power armor was designed like that, but I think operators would have used some kind of closed armor, or drone armor programmed to explode if compromised by the machines.

 

That one room the control guys used could be used for running the whole battle from some place not suspended out in the middle of the docking bay.

CES

[csyphrett]

Re: Potential issues with a Matrix like campaign premise

 

Some of the programs are self aware. What were they're original functions? How did their functions actually work inside the matrix?

 

the Oracle is trying to manipulate the system so there's some kind of peace between humans and machines.

 

The architect is running everything and speaking for the machine overlords.

 

The merovigian is running a small empire inside the matrix and has monster programs as his henchmen. What did he do before that? How much did he have to battle the other five Neos that came along?

 

The accountant program and his family. What did he account? His daughter claimed to make the new sunrise at the end of the third movie.

 

And then there is Smith, a virus trying to wipe out both sides.

CES

[Andrew_A]

Re: Potential issues with a Matrix like campaign premise

 

What did the resistance do before Neo showed up? They apparently freed enslaved minds, but what else? After Neo showed up they continued to free minds, but what else did they do? Also if Neo is a hacker why wasn't he constantly testing the limits of what he could do with the Matrix? I've always felt that Neo should have had weird powers we don't have convenient labels for. Instead, he was just a superspeedster/telekinetic. Remember: This guy is hacking "reality".

 

These might seem like unavoidable shortcomings of the films, but if I can think of this, probably the players will ask about this stuff and a lot more.

[csyphrett]

Re: Potential issues with a Matrix like campaign premise

 

Also changing the code can change the effect. Neo reached inside Trinity to pull out the bullet she took and then started her heart.

 

The Merovigian made a cake that made a woman want sex.

 

Could the players do that? Could other programs do that?

 

Neo also seems to have been implanted with the means to run machines in the real world. Could the players get something like that?

CES

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Potential issues with a Matrix like campaign premise

 

What did the resistance do before Neo showed up? They apparently freed enslaved minds, but what else? After Neo showed up they continued to free minds, but what else did they do? Also if Neo is a hacker why wasn't he constantly testing the limits of what he could do with the Matrix? I've always felt that Neo should have had weird powers we don't have convenient labels for. Instead, he was just a superspeedster/telekinetic. Remember: This guy is hacking "reality".

 

These might seem like unavoidable shortcomings of the films, but if I can think of this, probably the players will ask about this stuff and a lot more.

 

One thing they did mention in the film is that like the real world, The Matrix had rules that everything in The Matrix had to adhere to. Some rules could be bent, others broken, but for the most part like physics, the rules were nigh immutable.

 

I imagine that had NEO made significant changes to the rules in The Matrix, The Matrix itself would fight against him to erase or expel him from itself. NEO would have an easy time re-writing his own code (to fly, get superstrength and superspeed) he could manipulate things mildly (telekinesis etc) and could manipulate the code of other programs in The Matrix on a personal level (healing Trinity, destroying Smith etc) but to do anything truly "global" would be incredibly difficult.

 

I agree though that they should have showcased more interesting and varied powers for Neo and emphasize his hacker capabilities.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Potential issues with a Matrix like campaign premise

 

Heck, they had a mini-Matrix simulation to permit Neo to learn how to manipulate the real Matrix. Couldn't he have done this himself, without the use of electronic devices? He could use something like that to trap Smith in a world where Neo literally WAS G*d.

[ErikModi]

Re: Potential issues with a Matrix like campaign premise

 

Also if Neo is a hacker why wasn't he constantly testing the limits of what he could do with the Matrix? I've always felt that Neo should have had weird powers we don't have convenient labels for. Instead' date=' he was just a superspeedster/telekinetic. Remember: This guy is hacking "reality".[/quote']

 

In the very first Matrix, as Morpheus is training Neo, he says "Do you think that's air you're breathing now?" What I got from that is, once you understand "there is no spoon," you can really do anything. Instead of breathing in oxygen and out carbon dioxide, you choose to breathe out napalm, or chlorine gas, or whatever. Yes, hacking reality, altering things completely based on what you want them to be. Rewriting the code that says something is made of X to turn it into Y.

 

Also, the final fight between Neo and Smith. Even with just the flight/speed/strength combo, they could have gotten a LOT more creative then just smashing into each other over and over and over. I mean, the Superman/Zod-&-Co. fight in Superman II was more creative than that!

[Susano]

Re: Potential issues with a Matrix like campaign premise

 

In the very first Matrix, as Morpheus is training Neo, he says "Do you think that's air you're breathing now?" What I got from that is, once you understand "there is no spoon," you can really do anything. Instead of breathing in oxygen and out carbon dioxide, you choose to breathe out napalm, or chlorine gas, or whatever. Yes, hacking reality, altering things completely based on what you want them to be. Rewriting the code that says something is made of X to turn it into Y.

 

Also, the final fight between Neo and Smith. Even with just the flight/speed/strength combo, they could have gotten a LOT more creative then just smashing into each other over and over and over. I mean, the Superman/Zod-&-Co. fight in Superman II was more creative than that!

 

Yeah, they needed to watch some Dragon Ball Z fights for that one.

[ErikModi]

Re: Potential issues with a Matrix like campaign premise

 

Actually, after seeing Matrix Revolutions in the theater with my D&D group at the time, one person commented that 'the only difference between that fight and one from Dragonball Z was that they didn't talk about their power levels.'

[Susano]

Re: Potential issues with a Matrix like campaign premise

 

Actually' date=' after seeing Matrix Revolutions in the theater with my D&D group at the time, one person commented that 'the only difference between that fight and one from Dragonball Z was that they didn't talk about their power levels.'[/quote']

 

Dunno. DBZ fights, especially the ones in a few of the movies, have rapidifre punches and kicks, teleporting opponents, various energy blasts, move-bys, move throughs, and more dynamic action. Neo versus Smith did seem to be a little blah, IMO.

[csyphrett]

Re: Potential issues with a Matrix like campaign premise

 

I think if they did it at the actual speed the fights were supposed to be happening, it would have looked liked a DBZ fight. Instead it was slowed down a lot.

 

I point to Neo's flight through the city as an example. When it's focused on him, it looks like he's barely moving. If you look behind him, there's a line of cars and debris following him as he cuts through town.

 

Also the bits with the agents especially in the first movie when they are dodging bullets and Smith hammers Morpheus.

CES

[Folded]

Re: Potential issues with a Matrix like campaign premise

 

The biggest problems run into in this kind of thing are thematic, rather than mechanical. Here are two questions to start things off.

 

Question 1) Why are these humans in this VR world? It could be by choice, and maybe their memories of making that choice are removed. It could be against their will, in which case, what are they providing to whomever is maintaining this world? My vote is computing power. A large bank of neural networks put together could provide a lot of extra oomph. You could still use cows, mice or just about anything else with a moderately sophisticated brain, though.

 

Question 2) Why are they conscious? There doesn't seem to be any real reason, no matter why you have them in the VR world, for these people to be conscious at all. A person with a 20th-century lobotomy and some basic mood control drugs will lie on a bed perfectly happily (to outside appearances, at least), and that doesn't require the overhead that the Matrix did. What is it that makes the owners of the world want people to experience anything while inside?

 

The only thing I can think of that answers both questions is that the 'jobs' people have in the VR world are somehow directly accomplishing things in the 'real' world. Maybe those accounting spreadsheets you're building are based on real data instead of VR data. Maybe the point is to put people in situations where their creativity can be tapped without risking unfettered invention and the risks that that carries. Both of which would require conscious beings, and intelligent ones, at that. I suppose the idea of some kind of zoo or art project is vaguely possible, but it isn't very satisfying, from my POV.

 

These are the kinds of things that are going to determine how players react to this campaign. The flaws and strengths of the Matrix movies have been discussed to a fare-thee-well over the years, and players are going to come at this concept hard, looking for inconsistencies and plot holes.

[csyphrett]

Re: Potential issues with a Matrix like campaign premise

 

Folded's points also made me think of related things, Phoenix.

 

Is your friend trying to duplicate the matrix experience exactly?

 

The reason why I asked is because other things have done similar things.

The original Prisoner and the remake miniseries both have virtual worlds that have to be navigated. Star Trek's holodeck episodes. Stargate SG1 had settings where the characters were locked in and they had to escape. VR 5. Fairy Odd Parents: The Channel Chasers. The remake for Life on Mars. I am sure there are hundreds more.

 

What kind of virtual world is your friend designing? The Prisoner is going to be way different from Stargate.

 

What is the purpose of it? Are people integral parts, or prisoners trying to get out? Is it realistic in every way, or more like a video game?

 

I think answering those questions will allow for a smoother scenario design.

 

CES

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Potential issues with a Matrix like campaign premise

 

I would think that the bodies of people jacked into The Matrix are "conscious" (as opposed to being in a full coma) to maximize their bodies energy generation capabilities. A human in a vegetative state wouldn't generate nearly as much energy (slowed heart rate and breathing etc) as a conscious and active one.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Potential issues with a Matrix like campaign premise

 

I would think that the bodies of people jacked into The Matrix are "conscious" (as opposed to being in a full coma) to maximize their bodies energy generation capabilities. A human in a vegetative state wouldn't generate nearly as much energy (slowed heart rate and breathing etc) as a conscious and active one.

 

Of course, their nutritional needs would also be greater while conscious.

[csyphrett]

Re: Potential issues with a Matrix like campaign premise

 

Of course' date=' their nutritional needs would also be greater while conscious.[/quote']

 

Well, they were feeding the prisoners their dead.

CES

[Folded]

Re: Potential issues with a Matrix like campaign premise

 

Well, they were feeding the prisoners their dead.

CES

 

Well, that's a closed loop that blatantly doesn't work. See the laws of thermodynamics (and yes, they apply to a system of chemical energy).

[csyphrett]

Re: Potential issues with a Matrix like campaign premise

 

I can only say what I saw in the first movie. And it looked to me like they were recycling everything even waste material into intravenous nourishment. I dont how plausible that was, but I think that was what was happening.

 

If the studio had stuck with needing humans for brain power, then energy constraints wouldn't have mattered. Most of the machines seemed to run on some kind fusion plant.

CES

[Guest Celt]

Re: Potential issues with a Matrix like campaign premise

 

One of my thoughts for a Matrix style campaign was to use something like Paradox in Mage: The Ascension. Characters could bend or briefly break the code but the master code pushes back. It made more sense to me in a Matrix setting than it did in the Mage setting.

[csyphrett]

Re: Potential issues with a Matrix like campaign premise

 

Did any of this help Pheonix? I am sure we can brainstorm part of a setting up out of what's stated.

CES

[Nolgroth]

Re: Potential issues with a Matrix like campaign premise

 

While not a technical aspect, one subject that the first movie touched upon very briefly is that the harming the Matrix constructs of the other humans harmed the actual human. It was an interesting piece of morality that was mentioned and then promptly dropped. I understand why, but that might be a subject that comes up in the game. It could be that the Matrix reality seeks to protect its co-processing power/power supply/whatever from undue harm. Small scale stuff would be ok, but massive amounts of casualties could invoke some sort of response.

 

It strikes me that one purpose of a Matrix-like construct could be similar to the purpose of Dark City; a laboratory experiment. Maybe the Matrix isn't as vast as the movie version. Maybe it is just a single city or nation. I think I just gave myself an idea for my next game project.

[phoenix240]

Re: Potential issues with a Matrix like campaign premise

 

Thanks for all the suggestions. My friend this thread and its sister on rpg.net have given him allot to think about for this game.