Language Relations

[mayapuppies]

Hello all,

 

As those of you who have the Kamarathin setting and/or been in my Kamarathin PbP campaigns know, I love diverse languages. In fact, one of my most favorite aspects of Hero System is the Language Table.

 

To that end I am currently working on a new setting and I am developing the languages. One group of people left their native lands and settled in a country whose language is extremely different than their own (think an American colony in Japan). As time went on, this colony merged their native language with that of the land they were in.

 

I'm wondering how closely related this patois would be to their native tongue and to the native language of their new home?

 

The two languages belong to two different groups that do not even share a 1 point similarity. Normally I would make a dialect a 4 pt. similarity, but in this case, the merged languages are so different I'm wondering if I should make this particular one 3 pt. similarity...or would a 2pt. suffice?

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Language Relations

 

Chinese Pidgin English provides a pretty decent real-world example.

 

From Wikipedia:

Typical sentences in Chinese Pidgin are Hab gat rening kum daun (Have got raining come down) “There is rain coming down”; Tumoro mai no kan kum (Tomorrow my no can come) “Tomorrow I can't come”; and Mai no hab kachi basket (My no have catch basket) “I didn't bring a basket.”

 

Definitely not a 4 pt similarity. The words are very similar to standard English, but usage is way off. Grammar seems to mostly follow the Chinese, although it's hard to tell from such a small sample. It appears the pidgin is more closely related to English than Chinese, likely because English speakers in the past have been notorious about not lowering themselves to learning other languages.

 

So, for your language table, I'd suggest looking at the two cultures and the circumstances involved, decide which side is more likely to resist learning a new language. Give three points of similarity to that parent language, and only one or two to the other.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Language Relations

 

Thanks, I was thinking about weighting the familiarity towards the parent language, but now I have a reason as to why.

[Lucius]

Re: Language Relations

 

Look at the examples of Yiddish and Persian.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Munchkin Ashkenazi Palindromedary

[Christopher]

Re: Language Relations

 

Also nice example are the "Finno-Ugric" languages. There gramatic is supposed to be very similar.

But look where Finnland lies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnland

 

And where Hungary lies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary

 

In the time the european tribes wandered and setteled (bringing their language with them, this distance is equal to one between UK and China today.

[薔薇語]

Re: Language Relations

 

Of note, of course, is that if this new creole language has existed for long enough, you may not find enough similarity between it and it's parent languages to actually justify the price break. Also of note is the inherent flaw in the family / familiarity correlation. Just because two languages belong to the same family, they do not inherently provide a better ease of learning. And the opposite is also true.

 

Real World Examples:

 

English and Hindi belong to the same (extremely large) family but shouldn't share any point break for being similar.

 

Korean and Japanese belong to their own Isolated family groups, but due to a long history of interchange and Chinese influence, it is extremely easy for Koreans and Japanese to learn eachother's language.

 

Now, this isn't a flaw that has no good reason behind it. Indeed, truly close family relations do promote a much higher ease of learning. Spanish, Portugues, and Italian speakers can learn eachother's languages easily. It is harder, but far from hard, for French speakers to join that trifecta.

 

---

 

But anyway, what you should consider if you really want to know what the ease of learning spread should be is:

 

How divergent are the two parent languages? Sure, sound systems can be extremely different, but is the grammar as well? English Grammar is FAR FAR closer to Chinese than it is Japanese. This fact is crucial in determining which language will have the "grammar" bonus. Likewise, which will have the Phonetics bonus? Which has the word choice advantage. And if you are dealing with orthographically different (or for that matter, codified at all) languages, which has the ortho bonus? And if you really want to put that much time into it, then you can start putting more steadfast numbers to it. If not, then just put one number on it and call it a day. : )

 

Also, if you ever want to research this issue, just look up anything dealing with "creole" languages. That is the term most often used to described the newly formed languages from Pidgin (pidgin, btw, is a description that indicates a language is not fully formed and still infantile).

 

La Rose.

 

Edit: Don't forget about the effects of third party languages. If there is a third language, it can greatly effect the changes that occur in your pidgin/creole.