What is the building in which a mason works called?

[MisterVimes]

Re: What is the building in which a mason works called?

 

There were ancient and arcane rites performed and leather aprons and human sacrifice -- wait, that's the new Republican National Committee.

[Barwickian]

Re: What is the building in which a mason works called?

 

Masons made buildings. They didn't carve effigies' date=' ornamental touches, or, for that matter, the stones they built with, usually. Those were jobs for stonecarvers and quarrymen, respectively. Masons were a fairly specialised trade, whose job was to put buildings together, not make the bits buildings were made out of (it's why they were considered a "fine" trade). A mason was partly a builder, partly an architect, partly a designer ... not a mere tradesman. Masons did carve specialist pieces though (corner and keystones, archetraves, restpieces, etc) especially as journeymen and the humbler types would naturally do more.[/quote']

 

A master mason is certainly these things, but there were many grades of mason. The broadest division was between the freestone masons, also known as freemasons, who did finework and decorative pieces with expensive stone free of grain (hence the name), and the roughstone masons: hewers, layers, cutters, pavers and wallers.

 

Knoop and Jones, in The Medieval Mason (3rd ed 1967), suggest quarries were a natural 'nurseries' for masons. While the two are separate trades, they are related, and masons most definitely went into quarries to hew, prepare and dress stone.

 

Thus of the 51 layers named in the the previously mentioned Beaumaris and Caernarvon building accounts [1316-1317] we know that 4 had worked as quarriers a 1 as a 'portache' in a quarry before they became layers... When in the same accounts we find examples of hewers working in the quarry as cutters preparing 'coynes of asshler', of layers working in the quarry as scapplers and of a quarrier 'digging and breaking stone, each stone in length two feet, height one foot, breadth one foot and a half', we feel that the boundaries between one stone-working occupation and another were by no means rigid, and that the conversion of a skilled quarrier who worked with an axe and hammer into a roughmason who also worked with an axe and hammer could not have been uncommon in the days before gilds (if such ever existed in country districts) with their definite ideas of industrial demarcation.

 

Where in connection with big building operations employers worked quarries which they either owned or leased (a common arrangement, as was shown in the previous chapter), we find them from time to time sending their masons to work in the quarries, or arranging that masons should be regularly employed there.

 

These would usually be made in the craftman's own home which would have had a workshop attached: if the mason wanted them' date=' he'd know where to go. However, making things "on spec" was usually not something carvers or artisans did (at least not on this scale) because of the work and cost involved. Most items were made to a specific demand and the idea of buying things "off the shelf" or shops with a big stock from which you could choose, is actually a pretty modern one.[/quote']

 

True. I'm not envisioning a huge inventory, but samples, the occasional finished piece (perhaps not wanted after it was commissioned) and pieces where some of the initial roughwork has been done to make it easier to finish later.

 

No doubt. I doubt they'd call it a lodge' date=' though which had a very specific meaning in medieval times[/quote']

 

Back to Knoop and Jones:

 

This and other evidence, such as the tools kept in the lodge at York and the duties of the supervisor, leave no doubt in our minds that the lodges were primarily masons' workshops, though not all the work could be done there, as in some cases stones had to be cut or carved after being placed in position. Although lodges were generally erected at the site of a building operation, occasionally they were to be found at quarries. It is possible, too, that where a mason set up as an independent craftsman or little master, his workshop might be described as a lodge

 

On the other hand, at York Minster it is clear from the Masons' Ordinances of 1370 that the 'loge' served the further purpose of being a place of sleep for the masons at mid-day and a place of refreshment for them during the afternoon break. In no case with which we are acquainted, however, can we find any indication that a lodge served as a place of residence for the masons, though such an interpretation has sometimes been placed upon the word.

 

I know we tend to think of masons' lodges as the place where a combination of guild administrative duties and union-like meetings took place, but that wasn't their only function.

 

The first edition of Knoop and Jones was published in 1933. The third edition of 1967 is now 45 years old, and it's quite possible that it is out of date. It's the most detailed source on masons I have in my home library, though.

[Markdoc]

Re: What is the building in which a mason works called?

 

A master mason is certainly these things' date=' but there were many grades of mason. The broadest division was between the freestone masons, also known as freemasons, who did finework and decorative pieces with expensive stone free of grain (hence the name), and the roughstone masons: hewers, layers, cutters, pavers and wallers.[/quote']

 

Good information, thanks! I may have to get a copy of that book!

 

But as you might note, Knoop and Jones make the same distinction that I did between stonecutters and masons - just that they are suggesting "we feel that the boundaries between one stone-working occupation and another were by no means rigid ..." and that people could move between occupations (which is almost certainly true, especially in rural areas, I'd think). As a general rule, (as Knoop and Jones agree) there does seem to have been a distinction in medieval times between the men who made buildings and the men who made the bits for them (with the exception, as noted, of specialized parts). Not as rigid a distinction between a modern architect and a carpenter, of course: people are more specialized today, but still.

 

As for the lodge question ....well, maybe. Knoop and Jones hedge their suggestion around with "might" and possible" and other qualifications. I've never seen a temporary workshop referred to as a lodge ... but then, I'm not an expert historian, so maybe I haven't read enough. At the very least, it's a good reminder not to be too dogmatic about medieval terminology!

 

One thing we do know, though: masons did not generally have large workshops at home (or at the guild lodge)for stoneworking - the standard practice was for stone to be freighted from the quarry to the building site and then final shaping done on-site. Moving stone around was no trivial exercise in medieval times, and you would not haul it extra distances just to shape it. Remember that masons would often spend long periods of time away from home living and working on-site: compared to other tradesmen they were itinerant (which is where some people suggest the term "free mason" derives from, though I think it more likely comes from the stone they worked with). There's a contemporary picture here, showing guildmasons at work - they are lifting courses, checking levels and doing the last finework (carving) all together at the building site.

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cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: What is the building in which a mason works called?

 

Aha! I now have a copy of Knoop and Jones! Thanks for the tip, it looks like a good read. It also, on reading through appears to solve several questions.

 

With regard to Lodge, Andy is right - from the earlier medieval sources there are multiple citations to "logia", "loge" and "luge" as a place "where the masons work". Logia (modern form loggia) means an open gallery or room. The same documents make plain that the logia quite distinct from the place where the masons lived. In other words, the logia (we can call it a lodge) was originally a covered place where they could work sheltered from the weather, but it's not a house and from the descriptions, could be either a temporary workplace or a more permanent building (which makes sense for large construction sites that might employ dozens of masons). The Fabric rolls of York Minster define it as "the shed or temporary residence put up for the masons and quarrymen" They quote letterbook C as saying "John le Wallere holds a small place without Alegate near the foss, in a certain small house called ' Loge ' 12 feet long and 7 feet broad..." We know from the rolls of Edward III that John le Wallere was merchant and had a house and shop in town, so presumably the loge was a place outside town where he stored ... I don't know. Stuff? A horse? Not stonecutting gear, anyway. It seems that "loge" in medieval times simply meant a shed.

 

The sense that AmadanNaBriona and I used (lodge meaning a meeting place of masons) seems to have evolved later, since Knoop and Jones give citations from the renaissance where lodge is used as specifically distinct from workshop or house and they suggest that Lodge came to mean "group of guildsmen of one town" or by extension, the meeting hall of a guild.

 

cheers, Mark

[Barwickian]

Re: What is the building in which a mason works called?

 

Good information' date=' thanks! I may have to get a copy of that book! [/quote']

 

I found mine in a library sale. The general public's loss is my gain.

 

But as you might note, Knoop and Jones make the same distinction that I did between stonecutters and masons - just that they are suggesting "we feel that the boundaries between one stone-working occupation and another were by no means rigid ..." and that people could move between occupations (which is almost certainly true, especially in rural areas, I'd think). As a general rule, (as Knoop and Jones agree) there does seem to have been a distinction in medieval times between the men who made buildings and the men who made the bits for them (with the exception, as noted, of specialized parts). Not as rigid a distinction between a modern architect and a carpenter, of course: people are more specialized today, but still.

 

I get the impression they were suggesting something radical. Victorian and Edwardian historians tended to like classifying and categorising things (witness the number of different names they came up with for types of swords, armour and polearms).

 

But you're right, they are recognising two broad distinctions while suggesting more fluid movement between the two than the conventional wisdom of the day accepted.

 

As for the lodge question ....well, maybe. Knoop and Jones hedge their suggestion around with "might" and possible" and other qualifications. I've never seen a temporary workshop referred to as a lodge ...

 

I have, and it's the first thing that comes to mind when I hear the word 'lodge' in a medieval context.

 

All such on-site workshops were temporary to some degree - by which I mean, they'd last as long as the project. The project, if it were a cathedral, could last decades though, which rather stretches the usual definition of temporary.

 

I suspect using 'lodge' to mean guild meeting place (which is what I assume you mean by the 'particular definition - correct me if I'm wrong) derived from the workshop lodges.

 

The Online Etymology Dictionary seems to support that, with 'workshop of masons' recorded from the mid-14th century leading to 'local branch of a society' by 1680. [link]

 

but then, I'm not an expert historian, so maybe I haven't read enough. At the very least, it's a good reminder not to be too dogmatic about medieval terminology!

 

Not a professional historian, certainly. Neither am I. But you're most definitely one of this board's history experts, which is why I give citations when I'm disagreeing with you.

 

And yeah, the only thing you can say for definite about medieval social history is you can't say much definite about it.

 

One thing we do know, though: masons did not generally have large workshops at home (or at the guild lodge)for stoneworking - the standard practice was for stone to be freighted from the quarry to the building site and then final shaping done on-site. Moving stone around was no trivial exercise in medieval times, and you would not haul it extra distances just to shape it.

 

Very true. Stone was expensive to move, particularly overland, and transporting stone you intended to trim off would be very wasteful (and would leave stone chips all over your worksite).

 

Remember that masons would often spend long periods of time away from home living and working on-site: compared to other tradesmen they were itinerant (which is where some people suggest the term "free mason" derives from).

 

I've heard that etymology for freemason before. I can't say it's wrong, just that I prefer the idea it derives from working 'freestone' - again, my source for the latter is Knoop and Jones.

 

There's a contemporary picture here, showing guildmasons at work - they are lifting courses, checking levels and doing the last finework (carving) all together at the building site.

 

Nice pic.

 

Most of what we're discussing - most of the information we have, in fact - relates to the big building projects whose records have survived. Cathedrals, minster churches, castles and other fortifications.

 

I strongly suspect though can't prove (in other words, I'm falling back on the pseudo-justification of "It stands to reason, dunnit?") that there's another layer of masons beneath this. Local craftsmen who don't travel, but are based in towns and cities, whose work comes from work on domestic buildings (mostly wood-framed but increasingly with stone courses as foundations as time marches on), maintenance work and perhaps building chamber-blocks on manorial sites in the countryside near their homes. Maybe even a church or a church extension if they were lucky.

 

I grew up close to the magnesian limestone belt in Yorkshire, considered good building stone (it's pale, almost white limestone), and there were lots of little quarries dotted about. They're not easily datable, and many if not most of them will be post-medieval, from the Great Rebuilding of the 16th & 17th centuries or later, but they are much what I'd expect local quarries to look like: small, most of them about the size of a three-bedroom house or a little bigger, often U-shaped with the open end of the U close to a track on the same level so it's easy to load and move the stone.

 

Little quarries like this couldn't feed big projects easily. They were for local use.

 

I'm having difficulty uploading a map wehich shows many of the quarries around my village. I'll try again when I'm at home.

[Barwickian]

Re: What is the building in which a mason works called?

 

Aha! I now have a copy of Knoop and Jones!

 

Good grief! That was quick. Do you live upstairs from a well-stocked antiquarian bookshop?

[Kraven Kor]

Re: What is the building in which a mason works called?

 

On the subject of mason vs. stonecutter, layer, hewer, cutter, paver, etc.

 

The way I am envisioning this, is that the "mason" was the guy who designed and oversaw the construction of the building. I don't think that 'architect' had truly become a trade on its own, in the era I am setting this, so the master mason of a given construction designed and planned the building, his workers then did the construction under his supervision, whether free tradesmen or journeymen or slaves or whatever.

[Barwickian]

Re: What is the building in which a mason works called?

 

That's pretty much what a master mason did.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: What is the building in which a mason works called?

 

 

The sense that AmadanNaBriona and I used (lodge meaning a meeting place of masons) seems to have evolved later, since Knoop and Jones give citations from the renaissance where lodge is used as specifically distinct from workshop or house and they suggest that Lodge came to mean "group of guildsmen of one town" or by extension, the meeting hall of a guild.

 

cheers, Mark

 

makes total sense, as the bulk of my serious research-level reading has been almost exclusively Renaissance period, so those tend to be the first thoughts that bubble up

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: What is the building in which a mason works called?

 

On the subject of mason vs. stonecutter, layer, hewer, cutter, paver, etc.

 

The way I am envisioning this, is that the "mason" was the guy who designed and oversaw the construction of the building. I don't think that 'architect' had truly become a trade on its own, in the era I am setting this....

 

You're aware of this Vitruvius dude, right?

[Markdoc]

Re: What is the building in which a mason works called?

 

Good grief! That was quick. Do you live upstairs from a well-stocked antiquarian bookshop?

 

Ha! There are actually two streets here with whole rows of antiquarian bookshops, but the truth is more prosaic. I did a quick search online to see where I could get it and saw that it was published by MUP, who are part of an academic system called the Online Library. It just so happens that my employer pays about 1800 quid a year for me to have unfettered access to OL, so I simply logged on and downloaded the .PDF These days, I actually have most of my own library on my PC. I only buy paper versions of things I can't get online, or big-format glossy picture books (like architectural volumes, for example).

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: What is the building in which a mason works called?

 

You're aware of this Vitruvius dude' date='[/url'] right?

 

Yeah, but Vitruvius wasn't what we would think of as an architect today. He seems to have known a lot about buildings, but seems also to have actually been employed to knock buildings down: he was apparently one of Cæsar's senior siege engineers. One of these talented guys who dabble in a vast array of subjects and who seem to know something about almost anything. His only surviving book is on architecture, but that doesn't make him an architect any more than Leonarda da Vinci was (da Vinci's second most famous illustration is something of a homage). I think collecting other people's work on architecture is not enough to actually make you an architect, and would agree that as a trade, architect does not seem to have existed in the ancient or medieval world.

 

cheers, Mark

[Nolgroth]

Re: What is the building in which a mason works called?

 

I have nothing to add to this conversation.

 

I do want to thank you all though. I learned something today and that ain't nothing.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: What is the building in which a mason works called?

 

Yeah' date=' but Vitruvius wasn't what we would think of as an architect today. He seems to have known a lot about buildings, but seems also to have actually been employed to knock buildings down: he was apparently one of Cæsar's senior siege engineers. One of these talented guys who dabble in a vast array of subjects and who seem to know something about almost anything. His only surviving book is on architecture, but that doesn't make him an architect any more than Leonarda da Vinci was (da Vinci's second most famous illustration is something of a homage). I think collecting other people's work on architecture is not enough to actually make you an architect, and would agree that [i']as a trade[/i], architect does not seem to have existed in the ancient or medieval world.

 

cheers, Mark

 

It's true that it is pretty hard to be a professional before professionalisation. But we should also remember that "professionalisation" is a strategy of social legitimisation (and incidentally regulation) masquerading as scientific progress. Which is to say, that there is engineering and medicine and architecture and whatnot well before the professions appear. The problem is that on the one hand it is hard for the consumer to know who is and who isn't a good doctor without some kind of certification process, and that the certification process in itself creates a financial disparity. A fake doctor is going to be cheaper than a real doctor, and he could well be quite good enough to fix whatever your particular problem is. (For example, a severe shortage of Adderall in your party stash.) So "professionalisation" comes along with an attempt to persuade you that there's no such thing as medicine without a medical degree, and so on. This isn't particularly well-regarded professional history, but it lingers as a popular account of the past because it sustains our modern professional society, which, in turn, leads to fewer bridges falling down and fewer people having concrete injected in their butts.

 

And it's true that this popular history is correct in the case of Vitruvius, in that he, like other Antique-to-Early-Modern-Science-Guys was a polymath whose most common employment was in military engineering. Just as there was no certified professional architect status, so there was also no secure career track for "architects," and, if there were, we wouldn't have a book from the Age of Augustus by such a person. The books that come down from us from that era are courtier's books, and the courtiers of Roman emperors were all amateur soldiers. (I say that because there was no such thing as a Roman "professional" soldier because I'm repeating myself.)

 

That being said, On Architecture pretty clearly lays out the architect's professional claim to be able to uniquely reconcile durability, sturdiness, and beauty. (Design versus art.) This was a real problem, and it led to real architects. To take just one of the great building projects of history, admittedly one of the best documented, thanks to Procopius' On Buildings, we know that the Hagia Sophia had Isidore of Miletus and Anthemius of Tralles as architects. And an Armenian source tells us that Trdat the Architect was summoned to Byzantium to repair the Hagia Sophia's dome after a 946 earthquake.

 

So, yes, there was the concept of the architect, and actual architects, in Antiquity, and later.

[Cancer]

Re: What is the building in which a mason works called?

 

Hmm. Not entirely germane to the thread, but I have a copy of this at home (literally an heirloom, my great-grandfather's) which makes a handy state-of-the-art reference for building in 1905 or so. It is safely past copyright expiration, so maybe I'll scan it this summer and hang it up somewhere. My great-grandfather was a cheapskate, so I think he would approve....

[Barwickian]

Re: What is the building in which a mason works called?

 

It just so happens that my employer pays about 1800 quid a year for me to have unfettered access to OL' date=' so I simply logged on and downloaded the .PDF [/quote']

 

Envy.

[Barwickian]

Re: What is the building in which a mason works called?

 

I've left the sandlands for a brief visit back to the green and pleasant land to discover a major renovation project at the east end of York Minster.

 

Here's the masons' lodge. It is temporary, but is obviously intended to serve for several years. It's how I'd expect a small medieval lodge to look (and I think that's the intention).

 

Photo taken yesterday.

 

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