Body and Stun Reserve

[Sean Waters]

Here is a thought - something we have touched on before, but I thought about it again and thought I'd have a go at building it as a new power.

Body Reserve/Stun Reserve

Type: Defence Power

Duration: Persistent

Target: Self

Range: Personal

Costs END: No

Cost: 1 Character Points for every 2 Stun or 1 Body or 1 Recovery in the Reserve

 

It would be nice if, like an END Reserve, you could have a Stun Reserve, or a Body Reserve.

 

This would allow the simulation of ‘ablative’ defences in a rather different way to the manner in which they are dealt with at present.

 

The idea is a simple one. You can buy Stun or Body and define it as a defence. You can make the defence resistant for a +1/2 advantage. Generally you only need to make the Body resistant as normal defences will affect Stun damage from Killing Attacks, but you may wish to make the Stun element resistant too to affect certain AVAD attacks.

 

This has a number of consequences.

 

1. Stun and Body reserves are considered to be personal defences that are inside other defences, so, for example, PD and ED reduce the damage before it is applied to the reserve. In this it works the same as ‘normal’ Stun and Body. You can buy the Reserve as ‘external’ for a -1/4 limitation and this means that the Reserve takes damage before other defences apply.

2. Stun and Body bought this way is effective against any damaging attack that would reduce the Stun or Body of the target. It does not work against negative adjustment powers, unless you also buy a modifier (+1/4) to allow it to do so*. Stun and Body ‘adjustment damage’ ignores the ‘fade rate’ rules and recovers at the same rate as the rest of the Reserve. It does not matter what would cause the damage – be it a normal energy or physical attack or even a mental attack (or killing attack if the ‘Resistant’ advantage is taken), but certain modifiers do have individual rules:

a. Penetrating attacks work as they normally would: a portion of the attack ignores the defence, the rest applies to it.

b. AVAD attacks ignore Stun and Body Reserves if the AVAD is not stopped by rPD/rED (if the ‘Resistant’ defence is taken).

c. Armour piercing attacks are very effective at reducing Stun and Body Reserves: any damage taken by the reserve is doubled (although no damage will apply to ‘normal’ Stun and Body unless the damage would have got through prior to the damage doubling).

3. As Stun Reserve is a defence, and so damage taken by the Reserve does not contribute towards Stunning. Similarly, damage taken by Body Reserve never causes bleeding, impairing or disabling effects or any such ‘secondary’ effects.

 

Reserves do not ‘naturally’ recover at all: you have to buy a recovery mechanism. You can buy a form of Recovery, that works like ‘normal’ recovery at 1 point per point of Recovery. This will work like normal recovery for both Stun and Body. You will generally want some regeneration for the Body Reserve, otherwise it recovers VERY slowly. Healing and adjustment powers that target Stun and Body do not affect Stun and Body Reserves: usually they have to be specifically built to include Stun and Body Reserves.

 

*Even if the Reserve does absorb damage from adjustment attacks (with the advantage taken), you still can not use adjustment powers to increase the amount in the reserve – you need to use an adjustment power that affects Reserves.

 

You can limit what the Reserve works against by making it ‘Transparent’ to certain damage types (Energy/Mental/Physical) or make it only work against certain SFX. If a Reserve is Transparent to Mental damage, that is a -1/4 limitation. If it is Transparent to Physical or Energy damage, that is a -1/2 limitation.

 

 

Thoughts?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Body and Stun Reserve

 

I think it would require some play testing. Overall I really like the idea. Something is itching the back of my brain as being wonky though I'm not sure what...

[psyber624]

Re: Body and Stun Reserve

 

In its current incarnation it seems really clunky, and doesn't seem to fill a niche in the current rules. Maybe instead of STUN/BODY we should come up with a different defense type to simulate what you are trying to build. My understanding is that you want some form of "regenerating barrier" like defense that can take damage but still be healed. It really on the surface seems like a way to prevent stunning/bleeding etc. At least that is what it looks like to me.

[Grailknight]

Re: Body and Stun Reserve

 

What I'm getting is you want another power to replace Damage Reduction. The Reserve would be an additive defense to STUN and BODY instead of the multiplier that Damage Reduction gives. It has the advantage of increased granularity but I don't think it does more than buying extra CON, PD, ED, BODY and STUN with limitations or applying ablative to Reduction.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Body and Stun Reserve

 

I would substitute multiform for STUN or BODY reserve' date=' and make sure that it is easy to heal the character while in multiform. As a +1/2 advantage, a character enters multiform at peak health if the multiform has no previous damage by Advanced Player's Guide Rules 2, but by character making, the old rules to make a brick multiform (+0) works typically so much better.[/quote']

Perhaps you can elaborate? This doesn't seem to be rsmotely similar to me.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Body and Stun Reserve

 

In its current incarnation it seems really clunky' date=' and doesn't seem to fill a niche in the current rules. Maybe instead of STUN/BODY we should come up with a different defense type to simulate what you are trying to build. My understanding is that you want some form of "regenerating barrier" like defense that can take damage but still be healed. It really on the surface seems like a way to prevent stunning/bleeding etc. At least that is what it looks like to me.[/quote']

 

Well all defences are a way to prevent Stunning and bleeding and such, if you think about it. The fact that this does too is more because it is defined as a defence than because it is designed to do that specifically.

 

It is another mechanic, one we do not really have at present. It is a bit like a personal version of the Barrier power, or a part of it. It enables you to build defences that have to be whittled down. If you have a 50 point STUN Reserve, then you are not going to get stunned on your first hit - but you can be after a couple of phases when it is gone. Good for master villains who can stand an Alpha Strike, so long as they are fresh. Good for any kind of ablative defences.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Body and Stun Reserve

 

What I'm getting is you want another power to replace Damage Reduction. The Reserve would be an additive defense to STUN and BODY instead of the multiplier that Damage Reduction gives. It has the advantage of increased granularity but I don't think it does more than buying extra CON' date=' PD, ED, BODY and STUN with limitations or applying ablative to Reduction.[/quote']

 

Not necessarily replace Damage Reduction, but certainly allow much the same sort of effect without the complications of having to buy up a load of characteristics. I think that the mechanic is sufficiently different to anything we have as a defence to justify its existence, and making it a defence rather than a set of increased characteristics allows you to build that Ectoplasmic Armour that slowly gets destroyed in battle, and needs to be plugged into a Ghost Nexus before it regenerates.

 

To make this MORE like Damage Reduction, buy it with a limitation that it only stops a proportion of the incoming attack, or a maximum of X points per attack.

[psyber624]

Re: Body and Stun Reserve

 

Given that I would probably do it as a PD/ED reserve instead of STUN/BODY. Some form of PD/ED that reduces as it is damaged and then can be later "restored".

 

Right now you could simulate something like this with additional PD/ED, costs END based on Damage Taken, END comes from an END reserve. (Possibly adding the Ablative modifier as well). Or you could just come up with a "custom" ablative limitation "Defenses are weakened by damage, (Defense loses 1 pt PD/ED for every 5 damage that affects it, recovers : -1/4).

 

The issue I have with a STUN/BODY reserve is that it basically serves as a way to ensure that your character takes NO effect from attacks till the reserve is depleted. Right now there is really nothing RAW that does the same thing (and I don't think there should be one, IMO) unless you simply buy standard defenses higher than an attack can penetrate.

[Kirby]

Re: Body and Stun Reserve

 

An extra layer/set of defenses bought with Ablative seems more appropriate for the Stun Reserve; or just more Stun.

 

If you are worried about a master villain being Con Stunned the first time he is hit, then maybe by him bonus Con (no figured characteristics) with a Trigger for when he's hit and a 1 charge limitation. Perhaps link it to bonus Stun (which wouldn't "recover" until the character in question has recovered all of their normal Stun first).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Body and Stun Reserve

 

Given that I would probably do it as a PD/ED reserve instead of STUN/BODY. Some form of PD/ED that reduces as it is damaged and then can be later "restored".

 

Right now you could simulate something like this with additional PD/ED, costs END based on Damage Taken, END comes from an END reserve. (Possibly adding the Ablative modifier as well). Or you could just come up with a "custom" ablative limitation "Defenses are weakened by damage, (Defense loses 1 pt PD/ED for every 5 damage that affects it, recovers : -1/4).

 

The issue I have with a STUN/BODY reserve is that it basically serves as a way to ensure that your character takes NO effect from attacks till the reserve is depleted. Right now there is really nothing RAW that does the same thing (and I don't think there should be one, IMO) unless you simply buy standard defenses higher than an attack can penetrate.

 

That there is nothing that works like this in RAW seems to be a recommendation. How many times have you heard, in movies and TV, or even comics, "One more hit will finish me!". Well, a Body Reserve models that. Your armour is virtually shredded, although you have not taken much damage - but another hit like the one that damaged your armour will seriously mess you up.

 

You could do it at present with 'Extra Defences REDUCED BY ATTACKS 1 point/point stopped -1', rather than invoking END Reserves, but the trouble with Hero is there are so MANY different ways to attack and damage someone: Stun and Body Reserve soak them whatever their source UNLESS they can bypass personal defences. Defences are supposed to be cheaper than attacks in HERO (that is, or was, one of the basic principles), yet I think we worked out once that it costs about 60 points to reliably stop 1DC of damage, if you get a free hand as to how to build that attack.

 

What this basically is is characteristics + advantage (No secondary damage effects) and limitations (Personal defence - can be bypassed - and does not naturally recover).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Body and Stun Reserve

 

An extra layer/set of defenses bought with Ablative seems more appropriate for the Stun Reserve; or just more Stun.

 

If you are worried about a master villain being Con Stunned the first time he is hit, then maybe by him bonus Con (no figured characteristics) with a Trigger for when he's hit and a 1 charge limitation. Perhaps link it to bonus Stun (which wouldn't "recover" until the character in question has recovered all of their normal Stun first).

 

Ablative in RAW is messy. Buy your defences up high enough and they never ablate (using version 2), or (using version 1) have your entire armour reduced to shreds by an agent's machine gun (even though none of the individual hit could actually penetrate). Don't like it.

 

Also i'm not just worried about CON stunning, that is one example of how this would prevent a first phase Alpha Strike taking down a villain - but it would STILL have a significant effect in weakening his defences for future attacks. As psyber624 pointed out - nothing in the RAW works quite like this.

[Grailknight]

Re: Body and Stun Reserve

 

Also i'm not just worried about CON stunning, that is one example of how this would prevent a first phase Alpha Strike taking down a villain - but it would STILL have a significant effect in weakening his defences for future attacks. As psyber624 pointed out - nothing in the RAW works quite like this.

 

Another alternative, not RAW legal, would be to use the Automaton powers with charges or ablative. Better yet link Takes no Stun to a set amount of STUN and does not bleed to a set amount of BODY.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Body and Stun Reserve

 

Another alternative' date=' not RAW legal, would be to use the Automaton powers with charges or ablative. Better yet link Takes no Stun to a set amount of STUN and does not bleed to a set amount of BODY.[/quote']

 

True, but complicated. The idea of a Reserve seems very easy to implement and administer and nicely granular. Also, if we are making stuff up anyway...

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Body and Stun Reserve

 

The Growth power already has an included Stun Reserve and Body Reserve. (-1/2) costs END per phase for extra STUN and Extra BODY would be a Body and Stun Reserve just like Growth. Linked at full power only (-3/4) to Density Increase or Growth' date=' and costs END to activate (-1/4) for both bonus STUN and bonus BODY for (-1) total limitations, is a Body and Stun Reserve.[/quote']

That is not at all the same as what is being suggested in this thread. For one thing it would not act as a separate layer of defense, so it would not prevent being Stunned and it wouldn't get bypassed by NNDs/AVADs.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Body and Stun Reserve

 

I would consider it a waste of player power points by 6th Edition Rules to change extra STUN and BODY linked to a power like Density Increase to a separate power called STUN Reserve or BODY Reserve; where under the defined circumstance the reserve gets used instead of ordinary STUN or BODY' date=' [b']because when a hypothetical STUN Reserve gets used the character is still knocked out, or instant death if BODY from a hypothetical BODY Reserve drops to the negative BODY value[/b]. 5th Edition Rules had END from an END Reserve 5x cheaper, which is why I thought about 5x cheaper by STUN Reserve or BODY Reserve under correct circumstances by 5th Edition Rules. Multiform is ideal for brick use, because a multipower or power pool can use a multiform that has enhanced senses, skill levels, skills, special defenses, talents, and other special powers, that otherwise are not allowed for multipower or power pool use. Optimize the base character for Malvan-style superhero gladiatorial combat; and make the multiforms nonpersistent (-1/4); so that your superhero can be an officer and a gentleman; a speedster; or take advantage of OAF (staff or the like:-1), (incantations;-1/4), (gestures;-1/4), to get a cheap cosmic power pool. A mystic can define brick powers as Earth Elemental Form.

 

No, it doesn't. I think you need to reread the OP because that is not what is being suggested at all. The suggestion is that the various Reserves would work like an Ablative Defense. When your STUN Reserve gets used then you would still have your regular STUN Characteristic to burn through before being knocked out though you could be knocked out without burning through the STUN Reserve with the use of Penetrating attacks, AVAD/NNDs, Suffocation, and the like. Likewise, the BODY Reserve would never "drop to the negative BODY value". It would drop to 0 and then you would start taking normal BODY Damage. Again, you could be killed without burning through the BODY Reserve (with BODY Drain, NND/AVADs, et cetera) but emptying the Reserve would not kill you.

 

I'm having trouble understanding how your suggestions are even remotely similar to this suggestion. Your suggestions for using Multiform for a munchkin power build does not resemble an alternate type of ablative defenses or anything else being discussed (unless I'm just being obtuse here).

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Body and Stun Reserve

 

I had forgotten about that type of "STUN Reserve" in Kazei 5. I'll have to remember that, thanks.

 

However, that still is not what Sean was suggesting in the first post. He is suggesting a new type of Defense. One that could not be easily constructed (if at all) with the current rules but based on the precedent set by END Reserves. (And Sean, if I am misrepresenting any part of your idea please correct me). What you describe from Kazei 5 is not a Defense for the character, it is STUN for the Computer which in that particular setting can be remote controlled and control cyborg characters.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Body and Stun Reserve

 

No, you have my intention exactly right. I might have been better off calling it 'Personal Barrier' or something like that though to avoid confusion.

[OSAT]

Re: Body and Stun Reserve

 

This actualy makes a lot of sence but it might be better to work on a alternative form of ablative. Or perhaps a +? advantage to barrier (personal) since its got the upside of mobile and the downside of surface (user).

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Body and Stun Reserve

 

Recoverable charges for a defense would be Sean Waters suggested STUN with BODY reserve. Charges require one full phase of concentration at zero DCV per charge to recover. This is recoverable charge use because the character has to wait until after combat to recover the charges. Allocatable (+1/4) and Continuing Charges would also apply to STUN with BODY Reserve. To encourage the purchase of STUN with BODY Reserve' date=' the protection starts with 0 rPD, 0 rED, 0 r MentalD, 0 rPowerD, 0 rSight FlashD, and 0 rHearing FlashD; as I already did a force field with 2 in each of these defenses, plus 38 resistant allocatable protection (+1/4), for 90 active points in a multipower. That multipower also has a one hour fuel charge per day of Growth to Huge, for 0 END for +45 STR and +36 m RUNNING as well; plus it has a slot for four 400 point multiforms. One multiform is for elf wizard staff expertise use, 128 cost for an 80 point reserve power pool, 40 control cost, Cosmic(+2), 120 active point limit, OAF (Staff;-1), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4) for all powers. The feyworld-themed elf (eladrin), claims to be the caretaker of "The Valley of the Jolly Green Giant," which gives him employment and a Public ID as the Green Giant in the Champions game.[/quote']

Still nothing remotely like what is being discussed. Not sure if you really don't get it or if these ever increasingly goofy suggestions of yours are an attempt to troll me.

[Grailknight]

Re: Body and Stun Reserve

 

Ok, checked with Hero Designer and it is rules legal.

 

So buy Stun linked to Cannot be Stunned and BODY linked to Does not Bleed as Compound Powers and then flavor vith your limitations as to what does not get stopped. Add limited recovery/regeneration and I think it covers all you wanted. More complex than a new power but I don't see this as something that will be more than rarely used.

[psyber624]

Re: Body and Stun Reserve

 

Is this guy some kind of spam bot? its like he is taking random stuff that makes sense and combining it in ways that don't......

[Greywind]

Re: Body and Stun Reserve

 

The use of agents and Summon allows a character to stay desolidified to watch the battle in a noncombat support role until he needs to fight. This is equal to a STUN or BODY reserve. A watching leader can use dimensional normal sight and dimensional normal hearing from the Astral Plane to watch the battle invisibly as well. Mystic Aura Distinctive Feature Complication' date=' allows Astral foes to be visible to characters with dimensional normal sight. 22 points of extradimensional movement affords this protection, and indirect +1/2, transdimensional +1/2, area effect 4m radius +1/4, for aid or heal can be done in a support role. 10 cost for extradimensional perception, plus 100 cost for a 40 point reserve 60 active point limit cosmic power pool, allows the Astral Plane to be used as a STUN or BODY reserve, and up to 300 points of creatures can be summoned. The +1 advantage total to attack transdimensionally minimizes combat damage enough, so a mystic with a golden cobra staff with red glowing eyes, will want to use Viper agents shooting 12d6 heavy shoulder blasters to inflict maximum combat damage.[/quote']

 

Using Summon on the Astral will Summon TO the Astral.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Body and Stun Reserve

 

OK, so definitely getting a character concept of some sort of ghost type sitting invisible and immaterial in a dimension subtly separated from our own, peering in and throwing summoned beasties at the nonplussed Heroes.

 

Not so sure how that equates to a Stun/Body Reserve. I mean, I get that the summoned beasties are soaking damage that might otherwise directed to the summoner, but you can't really consider that a form of personal defence, in the 'technical' sense.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Body and Stun Reserve

 

I've checked the other threads he has posted to and most of his responses have very little to do with what is being discussed. Not sure if it is a language issue or what.

[Greywind]

Re: Body and Stun Reserve

 

That's not a game mechanic. That's tactics. In D&D the Wizard is the mobile field support in most cases.