Resistance is useless

[Greywind]

Re: Resistance is useless

 

No the problem was that GM's got sick of Players repeatedly hitting the Stun Lotto screwing up the nights fun by KOing the Big Baddy in a few phases. Most of the griping about KA's were the GM's. Most GM's wouldn't have their NPC's using KA's because they knew it wasn't fun insta-KOing a PC.

I never had that. I was the GM. 'Course I came to RPGs through wargaming. Fortunes of war. Crap happens.

[Ndreare]

Re: Resistance is useless

 

Where is that rule at? I don't remember reading it.

 

Champions Complete Last Paragraph of page 156

Hero 6th Volume 2 page 98 secondparagraph under Killing Damage attacks

[Tasha]

Re: Resistance is useless

 

Champions Complete Last Paragraph of page 156

Hero 6th Volume 2 page 98 secondparagraph under Killing Damage attacks

 

Also 6e1 Pg 242 Paragraph 2

"To use a KA, a character chooses a target and makes an Attack Roll. If he succeeds, he rolls his KA dice. The total on the dice is the BODY damage done. Then he rolls another ½d6. He multiplies the BODY by that number — the STUN Multiplier — to determine the amount of STUN done.

 

Bold Italic for Emphasis.

 

It's one of the Big Changes in 6th Ed. Though other changes caused more post count since most people liked this change.

[griffinman01]

Re: Resistance is useless

 

No the problem was that GM's got sick of Players repeatedly hitting the Stun Lotto screwing up the nights fun by KOing the Big Baddy in a few phases. Most of the griping about KA's were the GM's. Most GM's wouldn't have their NPC's using KA's because they knew it wasn't fun insta-KOing a PC.

 

This was exactly what happened my previous campaign where people were using KAs simply because of the STUN multiplier. The allure of doing upwards of 60-70 stun (using 5e rules) off of a 3D6 HKA (which happened a LOT) versus a 9d6 normal attack (max of 54 STUN) was pretty high and a number of people were doing just that to the point where I had to nerf them by using a 3x fixed STUN multiplier (the equivalent of using a 2x fixed one in 6e from the sound of it) to keep things more balanced. It went both ways too since I had one PC take around 50 STUN from a single KA in the start of a match that just about floored him for the whole fight. Eventually even the players wanted the change since those who didn't have KAs as their main abilities were getting pissed at how fast the big baddies went down. Most of them would get to throw one punch before the villains would hit the dirt.

 

The STUN lottery is a huge double-edge sword because you don't want to make the KAs so weak that they do no real damage (ie using a 1-2d6 against 10 rDef simply because you don't want to hit 50 STUN on the attack) or run the risk of one-shotting the guys. I had the PCs fight alongside a tank (along with some soldiers) that had a 4d6 RKA to take out a giant monster. As I designed the fight, I was worried that I would hit a 20 body 5x stun multiplier hit that would take the guy down to near nothing in a single shot. That was the fight that I instituted the fixed 3x STUN multiplier and I've never had an issue with the STUN lottery since. Attacks that did high body would still do high STUN (15 Body would be 45 STUN, leaving the guy bleeding and on stunned as it should be) without running the risk of KOing them in one hit.

 

To quote the Book "Remember, a Killing Attack is just that — a kill-

ing attack. It’s used to kill or maim other characters.

Characters who don’t want to seriously injure or

incapacitate their opponents should choose another

Power to build their attacks with. A character should

never buy a Killing Attack simply because he hopes

to obtain high STUN Multiplier rolls.

 

STUN shouldn't be the core point of the killing attack and I have a hard time accepting anything that would make it the core point again. It was bad enough having the risk of a 5x STUN multiplier hit and I'd rather not have to spend the time agonizing over the possibility of a lucky roll ending the session in a single shot.

 

EDIT: Found a couple things that needed to be fixed.

[Arc Esu]

Re: Resistance is useless

 

I've been considering dropping PD, ED, and Resistant Defense entirely and instead going with Body Defense (reduces any Body damage you take, no matter if it's a Killing or Normal attack) and Stun Defense (reduces any Stun damage you take, no matter if it's a Killing or Normal attack). My problem with PD, ED, and Resistant Defenses are that they are priced the same in every game/genre, but not equally useful in each. For example, in an Old West game Energy attacks are few and far between, so why should I pay the same for a point of ED as I do for PD? By making the defense generic, the GM can set the limitation value of "only versus physical," "only versus energy," "only versus Killing attacks" or the like based on his/her campaign. But in my system, unlike the current one, Body defense would be not be added to Stun defense; the two are completely separate. Take the T-1000 from Terminator 2, for example. It is almost impossible to kill (it doesn't really take any Body damage until the end) but relatively easy to Stun (although it recovers Stun quickly). In the current system that is difficult to model since resistant PD/ED adds to normal PD/ED.

 

Cost for 1 point of Body defense would be 1 (in the current system, 1 Resistant PD/ED would be 3 points, but would also reduce Stun damage, so if you subtract out the cost of 1 Normal PD and ED you get a final cost of 1). Cost for 2 points of Stun defense would be 3. A character starts with 1 Body defense and 2 Stun Defense for free. Recommended defense totals would be 1 Body defense per DC (so an average normal attack will do no Body, an average Killing attack will do 1 or 2 Body) and 2 Stun defense per DC (so an average Normal damage attack will still get a good chunk of Stun through, while the average Killing attack will still get at least a few Stun through). Obviously, suggested defense totals would be adjusted up or down based on character concept and role (more for bricks, less for glass cannons).

 

Does this strike anyone else as a good way to deal with the resistant defense issue?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Resistance is useless

 

Couple of preliminary points:

 

1. I called the thread 'Resistance is Useless' because it was a catchy title and I find that if you say something controversial then you are more likely to get responses. I am a bad man.

 

2. I did say "...no one is desperately impressed with the 6e change...", but the full quote was, "Generally the impression I get is that no one is desperately impressed with the 6e change...".

 

Making Killing stun only stopped by resistant defences is potentially a problem, I do see that, as far as stunning goes: if you are halving the relevant defence then you are increasing the damage through defence. I don't think that is a problem with most heroic level games as you will still be doing more stun on average with a normal attack, and whilst 1 in 36 2d6 killing attacks will do 36 stun, well, they also do 12 Body, so most heroic level characters will have other problems anyway.

 

In superhero games the numbers get bigger and the volatiilty of both the Body and Stun Multiple rolls means that you can get some very large results: a 4d6 KA can often do 60 Stun, certainly FAR more often than an equivalent DC normal attack, but then quite a few hits will do little or no damage.

 

Now another thing I believe I suggested was allowing resistant defences v 'just Stun' (or 'just Body, if you like) at 1 point per point of defence (either as a new power variant, or built with 'Resistant' and 'Only v Stun') That would enable you to have (say) 12 resistant PD and 12 Resistant PD (Only v Stun) - that would give you the equivalent of the current effect of 24 PD, 12 of which is resistant against killing attacks BUT it would mean you only have 12 defences v Body - even if that Body is from a normal attack. That would mean that normal attacks have a chance of causing Body in superheroic games. Not as much as Killing Attacks, but some.

 

Personally I like that: one of the other points I made is that it seems daft that normal attacks rarely have a chance of causing Body damage.

[Greywind]

Re: Resistance is useless

 

...only because "Resistance is Futile" has already been used.

[psyber624]

Re: Resistance is useless

 

Sorry about the clear as MUD thing. I have found that I have a real issue getting into text what I am trying to say from time to time.

[Tasha]

Re: Resistance is useless

 

Sorry about the clear as MUD thing. I have found that I have a real issue getting into text what I am trying to say from time to time.

 

Lots of paragraphs would have helped. esp when dealing with a ton of math.

[griffinman01]

Re: Resistance is useless

 

Personally I like that: one of the other points I made is that it seems daft that normal attacks rarely have a chance of causing Body damage.

 

I find this a real issue too. As I said earlier, in every situation, be it real life, comic books, or fantasy, you can do some serious damage to a person without resulting to blades and guns. How often do you see people get killed with baseball bats in mob movies, or have heroes get broken bones and cuts from getting punched through a wall, or a knight getting an ogre fist in the face. Each of those situations would do massive amounts of stun and generally knock the person out in Champions but I doubt any one of them would do BODY damage.

 

If a super hero in a 400 point game had 24 Def, you'd need to do at least 20-24d6 worth of normal damage to inflict BODY (assuming you don't tank it with a ton of 1s) which would be kind of moot against the average of 80 or so STUN you'd crank out with the same attack (not to mention the 24 or so inches/meters of knockback you'd suffer) just so you could give them a couple of scrapes and cuts, maybe a cracked rib if you're lucky. Something tells me that if the Hulk punted you through a building you'd probably take more than a couple of scrapes, but Champions doesn't seem to cover that. In all honesty the only time you ever see body damage is if you bypass defenses (via Find Weakness a few times) or you use a killing attack.

 

Frankly I'm curious if there's a better way to do this.

[psyber624]

Re: Resistance is useless

 

I personally think it just reflects how tough PC's are. To note, one shot of a 12 DC Normal damage attack will put a normal human being at 0 BODY, possibly bleeding to death. Supers just tend to be able to take a lot more damage than that. If you want to inflict BODY damage to them, use killing attacks, that's what they are there for.

 

And yeah, if a "realistic" Hulk punted you through a building you would likely be dead. But how often has any superpowered guy in your standard comic book been laid out for weeks by one blow of the Hulk's? Even people way below his weight class at most appear to be KO'ed, and usually stand up with only minor injuries after a brief amount of time. Its not very realistic, but it is true to the source material.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Resistance is useless

 

...only because "Resistance is Futile" has already been used.

 

Badaboom badabing.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Resistance is useless

 

I find this a real issue too. As I said earlier, in every situation, be it real life, comic books, or fantasy, you can do some serious damage to a person without resulting to blades and guns. How often do you see people get killed with baseball bats in mob movies, or have heroes get broken bones and cuts from getting punched through a wall, or a knight getting an ogre fist in the face. Each of those situations would do massive amounts of stun and generally knock the person out in Champions but I doubt any one of them would do BODY damage.

 

If a super hero in a 400 point game had 24 Def, you'd need to do at least 20-24d6 worth of normal damage to inflict BODY (assuming you don't tank it with a ton of 1s) which would be kind of moot against the average of 80 or so STUN you'd crank out with the same attack (not to mention the 24 or so inches/meters of knockback you'd suffer) just so you could give them a couple of scrapes and cuts, maybe a cracked rib if you're lucky. Something tells me that if the Hulk punted you through a building you'd probably take more than a couple of scrapes, but Champions doesn't seem to cover that. In all honesty the only time you ever see body damage is if you bypass defenses (via Find Weakness a few times) or you use a killing attack.

 

Frankly I'm curious if there's a better way to do this.

 

As a suggestion, change the rules so that both the Stun and Body of Killing Attacks are only stopped by Resistant Defences and add in a rule that you can buy defences that only stop Stun. That should work.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Resistance is useless

 

I personally think it just reflects how tough PC's are. To note, one shot of a 12 DC Normal damage attack will put a normal human being at 0 BODY, possibly bleeding to death. Supers just tend to be able to take a lot more damage than that. If you want to inflict BODY damage to them, use killing attacks, that's what they are there for.

 

And yeah, if a "realistic" Hulk punted you through a building you would likely be dead. But how often has any superpowered guy in your standard comic book been laid out for weeks by one blow of the Hulk's? Even people way below his weight class at most appear to be KO'ed, and usually stand up with only minor injuries after a brief amount of time. Its not very realistic, but it is true to the source material.

 

If you change the rules so that you can define what your defences work (Stun/Body/Normal/Killing) against then you can - sometimes - do Body, a not a lot, necessarily, but some. A few blows, six, ten maybe, and you are killing someone, or close to it.

 

Two supers smacking the hell out of each other, it is going to leave more than a temporary feeling of dizziness.

[Greywind]

Re: Resistance is useless

 

Depends on the supers.

[Ndreare]

Re: Resistance is useless

 

In wild cards a super strong punch would kill, in a standard super hero such as Marvel or DC. Hulks punches Shield agent and agent smashs thru wall to come back latter. Even the knockback itself is unrealistic. We accept certain conventions in the game when we move into supers setting.

But for heroic, I still want stun from killing attacks reduced by normal PD, ED. I figure this is one of those things were you did not see anyone really fighting for it being an improvement and I will be that someone. I think it was an HUGE improvement.

 

I want you to be IMPRESSED with how DESPERATELY IMPRESSED I am with this improvement in the Rules as Written,

[Lucius]

Re: Resistance is useless

 

Couple of preliminary points:

 

1. I am a bad man.

 

Yes

 

2. I did say "...no one is desperately impressed with the 6e change..."' date=' but the full quote was, "[/color']Generally the impression I get is that no one is desperately impressed with the 6e change...".

 

 

Killing vs Normal Attacks were a big problem in previous editions. The solution presented in 6th isn't the solution I'd have chosen, but it did solve a long standing problem.

 

I don't know where you get your impressions from, but your impressions are unimpressive. Try getting them from somewhere else.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

A palindromedary for example