Retreat & stagger: Abort action options

[mhd]

Normally, I have to decide to abort to a Dodge or Block before the actual attack occurs, so in a evenly matched one-to-one duel, there's actually little motivation to do that if I intend to attack later anyway - why risk getting hit 5 times before I have to "take it" anyway so that I finally get to make my counter-attack? ("evenly matched" here includes same SPD)

 

I'd like to provide some kind of motivation to make this happen, as I'm quite enamored with this in swashbuckling movies and the like. And preferably not as a special power of one of the combatants (e.g. extra circumstantial SPD or a free PRE attack for the one driving his opponent before him). Maybe someone has a good idea how to add an incentive for doing that.

 

There are a few reasons that come to mind while one would back up, with the intention to attack later. One is just being intimidated, at least for a moment, but while this is my usual excuse to do it for NPCs, you'd need something like presence attack for PCs, and I'd like to avoid too much additional dice rolling. Another reason would be the defender trying to recover enough to start the counter-offensive, but even in a Heroic campaign, fighters should have enough REC and END to make this rather rare, unless this happens at the end of a run, swim or too much chandelier-swinging. Same goes for waiting until the attack is exhausted. On the other hand, looking for the enemy to expose himself or make a similar mistake might work. A Block/Riposte is already something similar, maybe some kind of weaker block/dodge, where the defensive benefit isn't as great, but you get the possibility of a bonus if the attacked failed enough?

 

Or instead of an additional maneuver, just allowing for the aborted action to not be wasted in a certain circumstance. Maybe using a "fumble" rule for the opponent or a "critical success" on a block?

[gojira]

Re: Retreat & stagger: Abort action options

 

Dodge already means "back up" to me. I don't imagine that Dodge automatically means leaping acrobatically out of the way. It's a general defensive stance to me (that's why it lasts until your next phase), not just a single instant act. This includes backing up or being generally dodgy.

 

Block = parry. A parry-riposte is a block followed by an attack next phase (which the former blocker gets to go first automatically). That's an exact correspondence to me.

 

There's a few optional maneuvers that might also help. Rolling With A Blow, for example, would allow an Abort after an attack has hit and allow a bit of damage mitigation.

 

All imo, of course.

[Steve]

Re: Retreat & stagger: Abort action options

 

I don't have my books around me, but isn't there a Flying Dodge that allows movement as part of the Dodge action?

[mhd]

Re: Retreat & stagger: Abort action options

 

Dodge already means "back up" to me. I don't imagine that Dodge automatically means leaping acrobatically out of the way.

 

Didn't assume that and I don't really have any problem with the visuals. Sorry if I didn't present that the right way: The movement part of retreating and advancing isn't a big issue, I'm not that concerned with grids so that's easy enough to handwave. It's doing the retreat in the first place, i.e. there's not a big reason to abort to a defensive action in a lot of cases.

 

Let's assume Jean-Pierre is meeting his arch-rival for the hand of the duchess, the black-hearted Comte de Petit-Pain in an empty ballroom. They draw their rapiers. Both have SPD 3. Jean-Pierre is a bit more dextrous than the aging Comte, so gets to attack first. They both want to kill their enemies with their own weapons, no reason to wait for help or onlookers, so why drag it out? There's simply no reason to defend a few times before making your own counter-attack. Maybe one block, if you've got a Block/Riposte technique.

 

There might be no good solution for this, I don't mean to force this. But I thought I'd throw it out and see if someone with more swashbuckling experience has a good idea. Mixing CSL with RSR(Evaluate Technique) would be an option, although a less generic one.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Retreat & stagger: Abort action options

 

Didn't assume that and I don't really have any problem with the visuals. Sorry if I didn't present that the right way: The movement part of retreating and advancing isn't a big issue' date=' I'm not that concerned with grids so that's easy enough to handwave. It's [i']doing[/i] the retreat in the first place, i.e. there's not a big reason to abort to a defensive action in a lot of cases.

 

Let's assume Jean-Pierre is meeting his arch-rival for the hand of the duchess, the black-hearted Comte de Petit-Pain in an empty ballroom. They draw their rapiers. Both have SPD 3. Jean-Pierre is a bit more dextrous than the aging Comte, so gets to attack first. They both want to kill their enemies with their own weapons, no reason to wait for help or onlookers, so why drag it out? There's simply no reason to defend a few times before making your own counter-attack. Maybe one block, if you've got a Block/Riposte technique.

 

There might be no good solution for this, I don't mean to force this. But I thought I'd throw it out and see if someone with more swashbuckling experience has a good idea. Mixing CSL with RSR(Evaluate Technique) would be an option, although a less generic one.

Even if you don't have Block/Riposte, Blocking allows you to automatically go first if your next Phase shares the same Segment. There is also Binding, which would force the opponent to try to disengage next Phase if he wanted to attack. Maybe you are so low one Stun you don't want to risk getting hit again until after your PS12 Recovery, in which case Dodging for a Phase or two, especially if you have Martial Dodge, may be your best bet. After you regain enough Stun to make a 1-hit Knockout unlikely you can go back on the offensive.

[psyber624]

Re: Retreat & stagger: Abort action options

 

There are plenty of reasons to abort to a dodge, but they may not apply in every circumstance. If you are in a battle with multiple foes if you can 2 on 1 an attacker then you abort to dodge when he declares an attack against you, making it unlikely to hit you while doing nothing to protect him from your buddies attack. Also, if you are faster (higher speed) you abort to a dodge since you will get an extra attack. If your opponent is using high END attacks, aborting to dodge can allow you to wait him out, or if his attack uses charges or the like. You can also abort if he is going to use an autofire attack, multiple attack etc.

 

What I am saying is that there are plenty of strategic reasons for aborting to dodge, however it is not ALWAYS the best option, nor should it be. If it was then everyone would do it all the time. In a 1 on 1 evenly matched duel the reasons for dodging definitely become smaller (as it's harder to get an advantage in that situation). If you want to represent something similar to this simply put your CSL's into DCV instead of OCV/Damage, or use defensive MA type maneuvers. This represents your "swashbuckler type" fighting off his opponent, parrying his blows constantly while not pressing the attack. Remember that combat is more fluid than "I make a strike, he makes a strike". The rules are actually "snapshots" of what is going on in a complex battle.

 

For instance, in a movie two swordsmen will swing their swords constantly, 40-50 swings or more in the span of a minute, but in the "HERO mechanics" he may only actually make a dozen or so "strike" rolls in the same span of time. All of the other blows are ones that simply have no real effect on the game and are "simulated" with OCV and DCV. Another thing is that pouring points into DCV can mean that you blocked, parried, moved out of the way, or any number of actions that resulted in your opponent missing you. They don't JUST mean you moved out of the way. A Block Maneuver is one in which you don't just use your blade (in the case of fencing) to keep his blade from hitting you, but you also do it in such a way that you gain an advantage in return. It is just one "snapshot" of the fight, if you played it out on screen you would probably constantly be "clashing swords" throughout the fight (in fact in most swordfights "on screen" actual misses are rather rare, most swings are defended with a block or parry.

[gojira]

Re: Retreat & stagger: Abort action options

 

I just happened to re-read The Valdorian Age to look for something. It has "Fighting Tricks" that you can use to simulate some things that sound like they might be useful to you. Fighting Tricks involves a Power Skill for your fighting style, and then various maneuvers bought as Powers with lots of limitations on them (almost always a including RSR Fighting Tricks).

 

Included was a Force Back power, built as Running, Usable As Attack, to make an opponent move, and Teleport for you to move with them. The point cost was pretty reasonable, in-line with other martial maneuvers. I wonder if any of these ideas ever made it into the Advanced Player's Guides. The general tone of The Valdorian Age fighting was very swashbuckling, it might be very useful for situations like these.

 

Also after thinking about it a bit: I wouldn't be opposed to allowing an optional Half Move with Dodge. It doesn't seem overpowered and could often be very much in character. Certainly not any worse than allowing movement after attacking, which some folks have house-ruled on their own. It would make movement very powerful, however, as anyone with a good half move could step out of an opponent's ability to follow, so allowing longer moves (maybe again with a special maneuver) to allow an attacker to follow seems like a requirement.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Retreat & stagger: Abort action options

 

I don't have my books around me' date=' but isn't there a Flying Dodge that allows movement as part of the Dodge action?[/quote']

 

To the groan of alot of people, yes there is. The groan is that you could move your combat movement-dodge and then get to use your combat movement again.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Retreat & stagger: Abort action options

 

I may be a little tired still, but is the gist of this conversation: why are opponents moving all over the battlefield when fighting in a classic Swashbuckling Movie Style?

 

Couple of options - Multiple Attack with an Attack Maneuver and a Shove Maneuver (assuming 6E).

 

Or, a more cinematic approach, after each exchange examine the results (misses, near misses (descriptive parries), hits, injuries) allow for some skill rolls (Acrobatics, Breakfall, or Feint if you're using that optional Skill), and then literally just adjust the combatants positions on the game map.

 

Or, if you're not using miniatures, just describe the combatants moving everywhere, move them only a few feet per Phase, by the end of a Turn or two they could be clear across the room. Definitely encourage the use of combative skills in combat along with Movement ( a half move to circle an opponent) and Attack Maneuvers.

[psyber624]

Re: Retreat & stagger: Abort action options

 

Don't forget that even if players aren't using "movement" as an action that they are likely moving around quite a bit in a fight. Standard running is 12m, even a half move is 6m (about 20 feet for those of us who don't use the metric system). That's quite a bit of movement for two people in a fight. Small amounts of movement are ignored by the system but could easily be described as part of a combat for free. Backing up a few steps on a flight of stairs (a classic swashbuckling maneuver) is only about 3-4 feet of movement per second, FAR less than even a normal person could move if they did a half move. Requiring someone to use a half move for something that small seems overly restrictive.

 

If I was running a campaign such as this I would use "melee" range as a guideline and therefore allow 2m (6 1/2 ft) of "movement" around an area for free as part of combat without requiring an action. So you can advance 2m forward "pressing the attack" or retreat 2m backward as part of any combat maneuver you wanted to make, possibly in an effort to gain some form of an advantage or whatever. If I was running a high-swashbuckling type game I might even allow a minor combat modifier for this form of movement (retreating gives you +1 DCV at the cost of +1 OCV, advancing does the opposite) Using this two people who advance are going at it full tilt, if both retreat you have a minor disengage... etc. Just an idea.

[gojira]

Re: Retreat & stagger: Abort action options

 

If I was running a campaign such as this I would use "melee" range as a guideline and therefore allow 2m (6 1/2 ft) of "movement" around an area for free as part of combat without requiring an action.

 

This is also a neat idea. I'd go for 2m or a half move, whichever is less.

 

(retreating gives you +1 DCV at the cost of +1 OCV, advancing does the opposite)

 

For this I'd require a player to use levels. It's possible to retreat while thinking "attack" or advance cautiously, on guard.