Rules Query/Excersize in power building

[jallen0002]

I have some ideas on how to build a particular power. This power is going to be used in a FH game as a Spell, but the general idea for the power is applicable to any HERO game that has powers in it.

 

Here is a little background: In a High Fantasy setting there is a wizard who created a duplicate over his own body and the duplicate is more like a body with no "life" yet. This duplicate has the exact mind/memories/abilities of the wizard at the time of creation. The duplicate can only ever be awakened/brought to life if the original creator dies. When the "creator" dies, the hibernating wizard awakens and becomes the "current creator".

 

In the 5ed book it defines a duplication power, "Astral Form.. and one of the lims is "Original Character is Incapacitated and Helpess While Duplicate Exists". This more or less perfectly fits the model, especially considering it doesn't matter which form is the duplicate form since they are exactly alike.

 

So I was thinking of a less limited form of the "Astral Form" found on p.101 (right sidebar). Basically the wizard casts the "Duplicate Self" spell and the "original" wizard becomes incapacitated while the duplicate exists. The big question is does the Duplicate cease to exist when it is killed. I would think it could be interpreted as having to "recombine" to "cease to exist". But death means ceasing to exist to me as well, so.. that is where the real question comes in. When does a dupe "cease to exist"? The Duplicate power pretty clearly states that "If a Duplicate or the original character is killed, the others, cannot revive him by recombining -- he stays dead; the character has lost part of himself.". That still makes me wonder if you can duplicate again since the duplicate is now "out of the game" can you pop another duplicate out? And since I am defining this as a "Spell" all you would have to do is cast the spell again to recreate the dupe. At any rate I am willing to rule that if a Dupe is killed the original can dupe again.. but im not sure if that is legal And if you really can't dupe again if you bought the power as one dupe only then I will just give the spell a total lifetime of x64 total dupes at 30 extra points with a limitation (One Dupe At a Time).

 

This works out perfectly in terms of the effect I want to achieve.. the "dupe" goes out to inflict his evil on the world and should he die in one of his nefarious plots the "creator" awakens and creates another dupe to send out into the world while he hibernates in a secret chamber of his "Evil Fortress". The spell will obviously have some serious costs in terms of expendable foci etc.. but hey its for an evil wizard to torture my PCs This one will be fun to do, but I want a rules legit way and Duplication seems to be the key :-D

 

[Additional Thought]

Perhaps Duplicate with a Trigger advantage, "When the creator dies".. the Duplicate spell is cast and certain expendable foci are consumed as well. The spell must be recast for it to sit and wait in the "ready to go state". All that said I think I prefer my original thought better. Either way there are certain ways to foil this power.

 

Supressing/Draining the "Triggered" Power and or Just destroying the creator and the one duplicate.. but this gives a great way to keep bringing back a tough adversary. Definitely an "Evil GM" trick Another limitation is that the evil wizard is incapacitated and thus unaware of events going on around the world so he really shouldn't get any experience points at all and should remain frozen at a particular point in time as far as his character goes. The dupe earns experience and of the dupe dies the original is right where he was when he went into dupe mode..

 

Jeremy

[Tom McCarthy]

It seems like a reasonable way to do it. In terms of minor game mechanics, it may even be cleaner than 'Regenerate from death (SFX: duplicate awakens in tower at home), prevented by destroying duplicate first'.

[Lord Liaden]

Well, legally speaking when a Duplicate dies the character is supposed to lose it permanently. Following that logic the newly-active duplicate of the spell-caster would have to earn enough Experience to be able to cast (i.e. buy again) the Duplication Power. Now I don't think that many GMs would have a problem with hand-waving that restriction since the Duplication would rarely come into play, and is a cool way to account for that last-ditch escape ability. OTOH having to save up Experience to cast the spell again might be desirable, especially if the cost is brought well down through Limitations; having to gather the materials, take time etc. to create a Duplicate would be very in-genre.

 

Still, I can think of another route that might be more strictly "legal." I've seen Summon, Specific Being used as a way to bring a character back from death. You could use that construct with the "Incapacitated" Limitation you mentioned and get the same result. There's no limit to how many times you can use Summon, but you can only have as many Summoned beings around at one time as you payed for, which suits the parameters for this ability.

[Monolith]

Another way of doing this would be to have Regeneration with the From Death Adder. Then put a Only When Dies: -2 and a Focus OAF (second body): -1 Limitation on the Regeneration. If the character does not have access to the Focus (meaning someone steals the second body or some other possible plot seeds) he stays dead. Could make for an interesing adventure or two there as the group tries to recover the mage's body so he can come back from the dead.

[jallen0002]

Added Idea

 

I edited my original post a bit. One thing I was thinking of was to buy the duplication power with x64 dupes with a -1/4 limitation (One Dupe at a Time).

 

For a 300pt dupe would be..

 

Duplicate Self (Spell)

Duplicate, x64 duplicates. One Dupe at a Time (-1/4); Concentration 0 DVC, Totally Unaware (-3/4); Extra Time: 6 Hours, no other action (-3 3/4); Gestures (-1/4); Incantations (-1/4); Original is helpless and Incapacitated while duplicate exists (-1)

 

Active Points: 90

 

Real Cost: 12

 

This would let the wizard use the spell up to 64 times before all of those parts of himself are "dead" and lost. He would then have to relearn the spell and gain some more experience points.

 

Hmmn?

 

I will have to work these other ideas into spells as well. Gotta love HERO.

 

As a small note this power could cause some serious game balance issues with a PC. The PC would basically have nothing to lose so he could do things that are a little more cavalier style. PC's dupe dies and he wakes up in his room realizing the dupe failed at his task

 

Jeremy

[Lightray]

It does not sound as though you are using the appropriate base powers.

 

Duplication indicates that the character either has opportunity to act more than one time per phase, or can be in more than one place at the same time.

 

Astral Form is based on Duplication (poorly, IMO) because the inert body can be affected in ways that affect the duplicate (upon recombining). Also, presumably, because the inert body continues to manifest persistent powers.

 

You do not mention any of these effects as part of your spell. What it sounds like you want is: “character dies in location X; character wakes up in location Y (where extra body is stashed)â€.

 

If that is the case, you have two effects going on:

 

(1) Character comes back to life. That’s Regeneration (Healing), Persistent.

(2) Character moves to location X. That’s Teleport to Memorized Location, Triggered (by dying).

 

If you want a limited number of extra bodies, add Charges.

If you take the extra body as a Focus, then you’d need both bodies in the same location for the powers to work, making the teleport function useless.

 

If you do want the extra bodies to carry some of the effects of duplication, then there are a couple of things to keep in mind.

 

Be careful how you define your extra duplicates. You wouldn’t want someone to think that you’ve taken 128 duplicates because you want 128 extra bodies lying around; you’d want 128 bodies in series.

 

If your duplication is triggered by dying, then it needs to be ranged (megascale?) for the duplicate to activate at the location where the extra body is at.

 

If you go a route more like Astral Body (extra inert body lying around), things get wonky. The original body would be lying around somewhere, needing air, water, food, and other things. You’ll need to check the rules – if the original body is killed, can the duplicate ever use this spell again? This does give you some interesting effects if your duplication were dispelled, though…

 

BTW, you’ll need a Side Effect to reflect the loss of memory from the point the duplicate was created, no matter which method you choose.

[jallen0002]

The most important thing to represent in this power is that the originator of the "dupe" is a real and accessible body that is simply incapacitated as long as a duplicate exists. If the originator (A) is killed it is the end of the line for my bad guy. The dupe could live on but when he does that is the end of that character. If the dupe dies but the originator is still hidden away in his dungeon he would then be awoken.

 

Basically it would be assumed my bad guy wizard has some sort of life support so he doesn't have to eat so that his duplicate originating form can lay there in a room for years, or decades in practically perfect stasis until the moment his dupe dies. I most definitely do want there to be a bad guy in two locations, but one bad guy (the originator) will be hibernating. I want the PCs to eventually have the ability to find the bad guys "originating" body and do what they will to it. I want him to be incredibly tough to kill in dupe form.. but if they find the originating form my bad guy is toast.. but that would take at least one or two slayings of the dupe for the PCs to catch on.. hence the evil GM part

 

So here is a sequence of events:

 

1.) Bad guy hides deep in his dungeon and dupes himself putting his original form into hybernation as a part of the spell. (He can only create one dupe at a time due to a lim on the power).

 

2.) The dupe has all of the memories of the originator at the point of duplication meaning the dupe will know exactly why he was created and what he is. (Maybe my players could capture him and convince him that he IS the real one and the fake is asleep? lol.. what a twisted plot line this guy could make for) He goes off and engages in some risky behavior (Attacking the PCs directly for example). The dupe is destroyed in the ensuing combat.

 

3.) The bad guy wizard wakes up knowing only that for whatever reason his duplicate has ceased to exist. He wakes up in what could be a weeks or even years depending on the task he sent his duplicate self out on. His dupe might have even died of old age. This is exactly how it is in the novels I am pulling the idea from. Just based on the lim that his is asleep while the dupe exists inherently forces the originator to have no further knowledge of the world around him, which is exactly what is wanted.

 

I haven't found a different power that more appropriately represents all of this without "meta" game tweaking. Whereas with duplicate I really only need a couple of modifiers/limitations to an existing power for it to work perfectly. It basically lets this guy have a very limited form of immortality by way of never doing anything himself (always using a dupe and protecting his originating self) It could be a lot of fun

[Killer Shrike]

Dont have time for a lengthy post, but the Clone concept is pretty easy to do w/ a properly modified Duplication.

[Old Man]

Once upon a time you could buy Extra Life for 4 cp. That is an old optional rule out of Dragon magazine. Basically if you died, you used up your Extra Life and the GM was obligated to twist the plot in such a way that your character could come back (though not necessarily right away).

[badger3k]

where from?

 

It sounds like it'd work out the way you want, so long as you say so.

 

Add mind link (only w/duplicate) and the original would learn/know what the dupe does. Better able to keep track of his nefarious plots. Or even pay for more dupes and you have a cabal of sorcerers who are all one guy! Similar to the clone/dark circle idea from old LSH comics (just re-read old books short time ago, so the idea stuck).

 

(edit) - of course I missed that this is how you want it. For a recurring villain, everytime the players ran into him, they would know him, but he'd have no idea who they were - a distinct disadvantage for him. Still, think if he started making others look like him, or he has a good twin brother, or other such actions to throw the pcs. (end of edit)

 

Another option I'd seen used in fiction is that the duplicates are mental constructs, or defined as solid illusions (sfx only, the game effects would be the same).

 

What novel(s) is this from, btw? The idea seems familiar, but I can't place it.

[Farkling]

Pardon if I have entered the discussion late...

 

Said spell has only ONE duplicate...but an altered duplicate.

The duplicate has regeneration from death. The key effect to stopping the duplicate from regenerating is to kill the originator, or possibly sufficiently suppressing the spell.

 

Let us ponder...

The raise from death can include a Time Delay.

Add Ranged Recombination (and possibly a MegaScale for Range) and you can reabsorb the duplicate immediately after it "reforms" - and mr nasty awakes in the tower with his memories up until death occured.

 

If you have the Mind Link in operation, then the re-absorbtion should be able to short circuit the range limitation...if not perhaps a watered version of Based on ECV... hmmm....no...I think I got it:

 

Simpler to define a Side Effect on the Regeneration (cannot regain consciousness prior to recombination)

And include the 1 charge MegaTeleport to the fixed location of "Sauron's Fortress". Trigger, "rising from the dead"

 

The duplication power itself can add the limitation/side effect of "recombination automatic after MegaTeleport of duplicate"

[badger3k]

Originally posted by Farkling

Pardon if I have entered the discussion late...

 

Said spell has only ONE duplicate...but an altered duplicate.

The duplicate has regeneration from death. The key effect to stopping the duplicate from regenerating is to kill the originator, or possibly sufficiently suppressing the spell.

 

Let us ponder...

The raise from death can include a Time Delay. Add Ranged Recombination (and possibly a MegaScale for Range) and you can reabsorb the duplicate immediately after it "reforms" - and mr nasty awakes in the tower with his memories up until death occured.

 

If you have the Mind Link in operation, then the re-absorbtion should be able to short circuit the range limitation...if not perhaps a watered version of Based on ECV... hmmm....no...I think I got it:

 

Simpler to define a Side Effect on the Regeneration (cannot regain consciousness prior to recombination)

And include the 1 charge MegaTeleport to the fixed location of "Sauron's Fortress". Trigger, "rising from the dead"

 

The duplication power itself can add the limitation/side effect of "recombination automatic after MegaTeleport of duplicate"

 

For the ranged recombination, why not the 30 pt ex-dim movement (any location in any dimension, trigger is death of duplicate, with two jumps - one to x dimension, 2 to home and original body). Add uncontrolled, etc and that can simulate an instantaneous body disappearance. But can a dead body have a power usable like that, even if triggered?

 

Wouldn't the original body have the regeneration from death (only for duplicate), extra-time, expensive expendible foci, etc? Or maybe couldn't is the better way to put it. It would require the duplicated body, of course. But then that would let the memories carry over (unless the GM says that the risen dead (or new body per sfx) has no memory of the past duplicate.

 

Of course, the disappearance may not be an issue - the duplicated body may stay where it dies. Since nothing is sent back to the original except his "spirit" (not his intelligence, or awareness, since he does not possess knowledge of the duplicate), he'd just have to spend points to regain the power (or have the items to make the duplicate body if cps for spells are used that way).

 

Forgot about the time delay - good idea - it keeps the main villain from popping bodies out. Maybe add side effect from having a body die on him (perhaps a cumulative transform if the spell has any really nasty side effects like aging or power loss).

 

Interesting idea - I'd definitely have some form of side effect, though - maybe change the casting character to evil or something similar, to keep any pc from getting the wrong idea. Maybe not part of the original story, but can be used for dramatic effect too.

 

This has possibilities - thanks for bringing this one up Jallen0002.

[jallen0002]

Re: where from?

 

This is from the Forgotten Realms series of Novels. The Zhentarim higher up Manshoon is a 17+ level wizard. In one battle I think in the Spellfire series the girl with Spellfire is with Elminster and Manshoon gets toasted and he wakes up with dust all over him in his dungeon hide out. That was just the greatest plot device. He woke up and I seem to remember him trying to figure out what happened/timing etc.

 

I would have to dig for antying more specific but I know that is mostly correct.

 

Jeremy

[jallen0002]

Originally posted by Farkling

Pardon if I have entered the discussion late...

 

Said spell has only ONE duplicate...but an altered duplicate.

The duplicate has regeneration from death. The key effect to stopping the duplicate from regenerating is to kill the originator, or possibly sufficiently suppressing the spell.

 

Let us ponder...

The raise from death can include a Time Delay.

Add Ranged Recombination (and possibly a MegaScale for Range) and you can reabsorb the duplicate immediately after it "reforms" - and mr nasty awakes in the tower with his memories up until death occured.

 

If you have the Mind Link in operation, then the re-absorbtion should be able to short circuit the range limitation...if not perhaps a watered version of Based on ECV... hmmm....no...I think I got it:

 

Simpler to define a Side Effect on the Regeneration (cannot regain consciousness prior to recombination)

And include the 1 charge MegaTeleport to the fixed location of "Sauron's Fortress". Trigger, "rising from the dead"

 

The duplication power itself can add the limitation/side effect of "recombination automatic after MegaTeleport of duplicate"

 

Excellent. The only thing to ponder on now is if I want his body to "disappear". That gives a really strong hint that something is most definitely up. And then when they see him again they will know there is some sort of contingency in effect that is affecting him.

 

I want it to be a "hard" problem for them to solve, however as easy as that is I may just give the players the hint

 

Jeremy

[badger3k]

Re: Re: where from?

 

Originally posted by jallen0002

This is from the Forgotten Realms series of Novels. The Zhentarim higher up Manshoon is a 17+ level wizard. In one battle I think in the Spellfire series the girl with Spellfire is with Elminster and Manshoon gets toasted and he wakes up with dust all over him in his dungeon hide out. That was just the greatest plot device. He woke up and I seem to remember him trying to figure out what happened/timing etc.

 

I would have to dig for antying more specific but I know that is mostly correct.

 

Jeremy

 

Ok - I've read some of the novels, so I know what you're talking about. Although in the current game, he had several clones active, with them developing different personalities/goals/etc. Perhaps the villains duplicate can do something similar - change his mission so that he can stay alive. That can be an interesting plot device later (as you stated - the "i'm an innocent dupe" ploy). Appreciate the answer.

 

As another aside - the dupe can then be significantly different in powers perhaps - one may be a drow elf, one a human fighter-type (high str/etc) with magical powers, etc. Altered clones may make the mission more achievable (if allowed by the spell/etc).