Demonic Power Builds

[BlueCloud2k2]

I'm trying to build a power effect for a Qliphotic Demon. Basically it is a Mind Control with a twist - the power has no effect if you don't know the Demon's Name. BUT If you do know the demon's name, no matter where you are he gets a chance of mind controlling you if he wants.

 

I was thinking the following effects:

 

85 If you Know My Name...: Mindscan 12d6, Mega Scale (Planetary +1 1/4), Inherent (+1/4), (150 AP); Can only lock onto minds that know the demon's name (-1) PLUS Skill Levels: +20 EOCV (10 points)

 

90 ... then I know Yours: Mind Control 12d6, 0 END (+1/2), Mega Scale (Planetary +1 1/4), Telepathic (+1/4), (180 AP); Does not work against those who do not know the Demon's Name (-1)

 

EDIT: Yes, I know that NORMALLY knowing a demon's name gives you control over it. I'm ruling that this is a power unique to this specific demon. He is a Great Old One, and very powerful in the mental arts.

[Jhaierr]

Do you need Megascale for the Mind Control since Mind Scan creates a "line of sight" automatically?

[Shadowsoul]

Mind Scan is automatically considered to possess Megascale costing +1 and 1/4.  Anyone with Mind Scan can choose to scan an entire planet if they wish.  The problem being that this imposes a -20 on their roll.  Which you have dealt with by adding skill levels.

 

Having locked onto the target I don't think you'd need megascale for the Mind Control.

[Lucius]

 

 

EDIT: Yes, I know that NORMALLY knowing a demon's name gives you control over it.

 

No reason you can't make it mutual....it's just that 12d6 Mind Control is a lot when taking over a mortal, but not so much when trying it on Something with 50 EGO, 30 Mental Defense, and a Mental Damage Shield.

 

 

What exactly is entailed by "Knowing the Name?" Does hearing the Name spoken even without context make one vulnerable? If a single person knows the Name, can they "infect" a city by running up and down the streets shouting it? If the Name is then reported on the news, are those who hear it on the TV and Radio, or read it in the Newspaper, now vulnerable?

 

Is there a way to forget, or to make others fnordget?

 

Or does "Knowing the Name" imply a degree of understanding, not just being able to pronounce a string of syllables but knowing that those blasphemous morphemes represent an Unchosen Word, one that was NOT spoken by the Pancreator in the act of Creation? Or would even this fall short of the damning knowledge, and the true Anti-Gnosis is something that cannot be represented in mortal language at all?

 

 

As for the build, I agree that Megascale is not necessary. I don't even know if the +20 is necessary; if only 20 people in the world have the damning knowledge, the Mind Scan only needs to sift 20 minds because everyone else is invisible to it. If you're using Radar Sense in a hall crowded with Desolidified people who don't interact with radio waves, picking out the handful who "blip" isn't that hard. Give the Power a Limitation to increase the penalty for number of minds to scan, and now the demon has a motive for keeping the Name known to a select few - if the knowledge became widespread, it could become difficult to identify and influence any PARTICULAR mind....

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

SATOR AREPO TENET OPERA ROTAS

[NuSoardGraphite]

Unless the demons name was somewhat common knowledge, then that limitation needs to be higher. i would put it at -2.

[Nadrakas]

Some thoughts.

 

Inherent requires that a Power be bought to 0 END.

 

Not sure that Mind Control is the answer for a Qliphotic being -- at least for those who know it's "Name." Mind Control allows for a Breakout Roll on the first Phase after Mind Control is established and anytime he/she is forced to perform an action prohibited by any Psychological Complications (6e, Page 256). In addition, as pointed out by Lucius, the Characters EGO & Mental Defense might be an issue. So...might I suggest Transform Instead?

 

Here's an alternative rewrite.  It's expensive, but if I'm reading what you posted, then the Qliphothic "Demon" is one of the Big Badies...so this should be BAD!

 

 

Qliphothic Powers List (Not put in a Multipower)

271 Point Cost:

I Hear My Names!: Mind Scan (Human) 15d6 (Additional Class Of Minds (Alien), Additional Class Of Minds (Animal), Additional Class Of Minds (Machine) and Additional Class Of Minds (Qliphothic) classes of minds), +30 OMCV, Armor Piercing (+1/4), Indirect (Source Point is the same for every use, path is from Source Point to target; +1/4), Inherent (+1/4), Invisible Power Effects (Invisible to Mental Group; +1/4), One Way Link (+1), Partial Lock-On (+1/2), Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Transdimensional (Any Dimension; +1), (814 Active Points); Can only lock onto minds that know the Qliphothic Name (-2)

 

186 Point Cost:

Qliphotic Mind Slaves!: Severe Transform Mind 3d6 (Application of Arcane Rituals), (Additional Class Of Minds (Alien), Additional Class Of Minds (Animal), Additional Class Of Minds (Machine), Additional Class Of Minds (Qliphothic) classes of mind), Armor Piercing (+1/4), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Mental Defense; +0), Constant (+1/2), Damage Over Time: Target's defenses only apply once (24 damage increments, damage occurs every 1 Hour, +3) , (Source Point is the same for every use, path is from Source Point to target; +1/4), Inherent (+1/4), Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1/2), No Range Modifier (+1/2), Transform (+1/2), (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Reduced Negation (10), Transdimensional (Any Dimension; +1), Works Against EGO, Not BODY (+1/4), (744Active Points); Can only lock onto minds that know the Qliphothic Name Power (-2), Limited Target: Mental “objects” in the minds of sentient beings ([Limited]; -1/2), Linked (I Hear My Names!; -1/4)

 

 

 

And a song to go with the Above:

 

A Link to various songs dedicated to the Great Old Ones!  Cthulhu takes on the Holiday spirit

 

Don't Go That Way

(To be sung to the tune of "Achy Breaky Heart")

 

It started with a look
In an old and dusty book
Of things we were not really meant to know.
And now I'm running scared
>From dread beyond compare
And an invite for being dinner at Tcho Tcho's!

This house is awf'ly dark
Let's go back up to the park
But perhaps that isn't such a good path
The last time I was there,
Do you remember Blair?
He was carried off by Shub-Niggurath!

CHORUS:
Don't go that way,
I'd rather have you stay
With me in this terrifying dream
But if you go that way
I'll go the other way
And listen for your distant awful screams, aaaaauugh!

Off tin' with Voodoo
But I don't like the sound of that grim song.
Don't pull out your big gun
I'd really rather run
>From people calling evil Chaugnar Faugn.

And now they're playin' games
Like ping pong with my brains
Please believe me it's the truth I'm telling you!
For deep beneath the sea,
In slime and sawing "zees"
Is a huge and ugly Great Cthulhu.

CHORUS:
Don't go that way
I'd rather have you stay
With me in this terrifying dream
Bgo the other way
And listen for your distant awful screams, aaaaaaugh!

Don't go that way
How much should I pay
For you not to go down that deep hole
'Cause I don't have a rope
And there isn't that much hope
If you wind up annoying a big dhole, eeeeeeeww!

Don't go that way
You really ought to stay,
Your safer here of that fact I am sure
But if we decide to stay,
Be careful not to say
The name of the unnamed one called Hastur...

oops.

 

 

And another link to A Very Scary Solstice more for some music.

 

Enjoy.

 

 

~ N

[Jhaierr]

271 Point Cost:

I Hear My Names!: Mind Scan (Human) 15d6 (Additional Class Of Minds (Alien), Additional Class Of Minds (Animal), Additional Class Of Minds (Machine) and Additional Class Of Minds (Qliphothic) classes of minds), +30 OMCV, Armor Piercing (+1/4), Indirect (Source Point is the same for every use, path is from Source Point to target; +1/4), Inherent (+1/4), Invisible Power Effects (Invisible to Mental Group; +1/4), One Way Link (+1), Partial Lock-On (+1/2), Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Transdimensional (Any Dimension; +1), (814 Active Points); Can only lock onto minds that know the Qliphothic Name (-2)

 

Do you need Indirect for Mind Scan? Isn't it indirect already? Maybe I misunderstand why you added that advantage...

[Nadrakas]

Do you need Indirect for Mind Scan? Isn't it indirect already? Maybe I misunderstand why you added that advantage...

Forgive me if I didn't explain this.

 

Per the original post by BlueCloud2d2, the power revolves around knowledge of the Qliphothic beings name. 

 

When the name is known, whether it be by a living being (Human, Alien, Animal, or other Qliphothic being), or recorded inside a Computer, a pathway is created to the Qliphothic Entity itself.  The Qliphothic Entities Name is the "Indirect" Source/Path.

 

As for Mind Scan being Indirect...the description of Mind Scan (6e, Page 261) mentions nothing about it being "Indirect."  Unlike several other powers, which are listed specifically as being "Inherently Indirect" (Clairsentience: 6e, Page 181; Telekinesis: 6e, Page 294; Growth: 6e, page 229; Stretching: 6e, Page 285).

 

The only thing that mentions "Indirect" in relation to Mind Control is on page 153 of 6e:

Transdimensional: With the exception of Mind Scan, characters must apply Indirect to Mental Powers before buying Transdimensional.

 

Again, no mention that Mind Scan is "Inherently Indirect," so I take it as not being Indirect.

 

As far as I can tell, here are some things about Mind Scan.

1. Mind Scan is a Sense

2. Senses originate from the Character.

3. Senses are not Indirect.

4. Senses can be blocked by Barriers.

5. Mind Scan itself is not Indirect.

6. Mind Scan can be blocked by Barriers.

 

Ergo, Indirect.

 

Also, beings so "easily" blocked by Barriers just didn't seem to have the right "feel" for a Qliphothic Entity "Hears" those who knows it's name.  Thus, an Indirect Mind Scan (Even Interdimensional...no Barriers to stop it...) to find those who know it's name.

 

 

___________________

Now, on another note.  I didn't include this last night, as I wanted to think about it, and I have.   I think that the Qliphotic Mind Slaves! should be treated like a Mind Control, and have the Telepathic advantage (6e, Page 257)

 

 

191 Point Cost:

Qliphothic Mind Slaves!: Severe Transform Mind 3d6 (Application of Arcane Rituals), (Additional Class Of Minds (Alien), Additional Class Of Minds (Animal), Additional Class Of Minds (Machine), Additional Class Of Minds (Qliphothic) classes of mind), Armor Piercing (+1/4), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Mental Defense; +0), Constant (+1/2), Damage Over Time: Target's defenses only apply once (24 damage increments, damage occurs every 1 Hour, +3) , (Source Point is the same for every use, path is from Source Point to target; +1/4), Inherent (+1/4), Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1/2), No Range Modifier (+1/2), Transform (+1/2), (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Reduced Negation (10), Telepathic (Per Mind Control; +1/4), Transdimensional (Any Dimension; +1), Works Against EGO, Not BODY (+1/4), (765 Active Points); Can only lock onto minds that know the Qliphothic Name Power (-2), Limited Target: Mental “objects” in the minds of sentient beings ([Limited]; -1/2), Linked (I Hear My Names!; -1/4)

 

 

Mind Link should probably go along with this too, along the lines of "Linked to My Mind Slaves."  Perhaps twin Severe Transforms (Body/Spirit) with Damage Over Time (Months) that transform the targets into "Qliphothic Beings."  Fitting ending for those who delve into Forbidden Lore.

 

Peace.

 

 

~ M

 

 

EDIT: Cleaned up some misspellings.  Added a few minor corrections.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Nadrakas

[bigbywolfe]

 

 

The only thing that mentions "Indirect" in relation to Mind Control is on page 153 of 6e:

Transdimensional: With the exception of Mind Scan, characters must apply Indirect to Mental Powers before buying Transdimensional.

 

 

If anything that quote supports not needing Indirect.  I mean MS doesn't even need it to be Transdimensional (when every other Mental Power does).  Why would a Power that can have a planetary range with no Modifiers or Advantages need it in this particular case?

[BlueCloud2k2]

No reason you can't make it mutual....it's just that 12d6 Mind Control is a lot when taking over a mortal, but not so much when trying it on Something with 50 EGO, 30 Mental Defense, and a Mental Damage Shield.

 

 

What exactly is entailed by "Knowing the Name?" Does hearing the Name spoken even without context make one vulnerable? If a single person knows the Name, can they "infect" a city by running up and down the streets shouting it? If the Name is then reported on the news, are those who hear it on the TV and Radio, or read it in the Newspaper, now vulnerable?

 

Is there a way to forget, or to make others forget?

 

Or does "Knowing the Name" imply a degree of understanding, not just being able to pronounce a string of syllables but knowing that those blasphemous morphemes represent an Unchosen Word, one that was NOT spoken by the Pancreator in the act of Creation? Or would even this fall short of the damning knowledge, and the true Anti-Gnosis is something that cannot be represented in mortal language at all?

The Demon's name cannot be spoken, par se. It does in fact require a level of understanding. However, someone who can Speak (notice the capitalization), CAN tell someone else the Demon's name. And the Demon cannot command someone to share its Name for that reason (not that it would want to).

 

As for "recorded inside a computer" that means both if the Written form of the Name is scanned (think Moloch from Buffy) or if Mechanon were to learn the Name.

 

As for the build, I agree that Megascale is not necessary. I don't even know if the +20 is necessary; if only 20 people in the world have the damning knowledge, the Mind Scan only needs to sift 20 minds because everyone else is invisible to it. If you're using Radar Sense in a hall crowded with Desolidified people who don't interact with radio waves, picking out the handful who "blip" isn't that hard. Give the Power a Limitation to increase the penalty for number of minds to scan, and now the demon has a motive for keeping the Name known to a select few - if the knowledge became widespread, it could become difficult to identify and influence any PARTICULAR mind....

You make a valid argument.

SATOR AREPO TENET OPERA ROTAS

Okay, I googled this, but am not certain of the context you are implying.

 

Some thoughts.

 

Inherent requires that a Power be bought to 0 END.

 

Not sure that Mind Control is the answer for a Qliphotic being -- at least for those who know it's "Name." Mind Control allows for a Breakout Roll on the first Phase after Mind Control is established and anytime he/she is forced to perform an action prohibited by any Psychological Complications (6e, Page 256). In addition, as pointed out by Lucius, the Characters EGO & Mental Defense might be an issue. So...might I suggest Transform Instead?

 

Here's an alternative rewrite.  It's expensive, but if I'm reading what you posted, then the Qliphothic "Demon" is one of the Big Badies...so this should be BAD!

 

 

Qliphothic Powers List (Not put in a Multipower)

271 Point Cost:

 

 

 

I Hear My Names!: Mind Scan (Human) 15d6 (Additional Class Of Minds (Alien), Additional Class Of Minds (Animal), Additional Class Of Minds (Machine) and Additional Class Of Minds (Qliphothic) classes of minds), +30 OMCV, Armor Piercing (+1/4), Indirect (Source Point is the same for every use, path is from Source Point to target; +1/4), Inherent (+1/4), Invisible Power Effects (Invisible to Mental Group; +1/4), One Way Link (+1), Partial Lock-On (+1/2), Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Transdimensional (Any Dimension; +1), (814 Active Points); Can only lock onto minds that know the Qliphothic Name (-2)

 

186 Point Cost:

Qliphotic Mind Slaves!: Severe Transform Mind 3d6 (Application of Arcane Rituals), (Additional Class Of Minds (Alien), Additional Class Of Minds (Animal), Additional Class Of Minds (Machine), Additional Class Of Minds (Qliphothic) classes of mind), Armor Piercing (+1/4), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Mental Defense; +0), Constant (+1/2), Damage Over Time: Target's defenses only apply once (24 damage increments, damage occurs every 1 Hour, +3) , (Source Point is the same for every use, path is from Source Point to target; +1/4), Inherent (+1/4), Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1/2), No Range Modifier (+1/2), Transform (+1/2), (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Reduced Negation (10), Transdimensional (Any Dimension; +1), Works Against EGO, Not BODY (+1/4), (744Active Points); Can only lock onto minds that know the Qliphothic Name Power (-2), Limited Target: Mental “objects” in the minds of sentient beings ([Limited]; -1/2), Linked (I Hear My Names!; -1/4)

 

 

 

___________________

Now, on another note.  I didn't include this last night, as I wanted to think about it, and I have.   I think that the Qliphotic Mind Slaves! should be treated like a Mind Control, and have the Telepathic advantage (6e, Page 257)

 

 

191 Point Cost:

 

 

Qliphothic Mind Slaves!: Severe Transform Mind 3d6 (Application of Arcane Rituals), (Additional Class Of Minds (Alien), Additional Class Of Minds (Animal), Additional Class Of Minds (Machine), Additional Class Of Minds (Qliphothic) classes of mind), Armor Piercing (+1/4), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Mental Defense; +0), Constant (+1/2), Damage Over Time: Target's defenses only apply once (24 damage increments, damage occurs every 1 Hour, +3) , (Source Point is the same for every use, path is from Source Point to target; +1/4), Inherent (+1/4), Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1/2), No Range Modifier (+1/2), Transform (+1/2), (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Reduced Negation (10), Telepathic (Per Mind Control; +1/4), Transdimensional (Any Dimension; +1), Works Against EGO, Not BODY (+1/4), (765 Active Points); Can only lock onto minds that know the Qliphothic Name Power (-2), Limited Target: Mental “objects” in the minds of sentient beings ([Limited]; -1/2), Linked (I Hear My Names!; -1/4)

 

Mind Link should probably go along with this too, along the lines of "Linked to My Mind Slaves."  Perhaps twin Severe Transforms (Body/Spirit) with Damage Over Time (Months) that transform the targets into "Qliphothic Beings."  Fitting ending for those who delve into Forbidden Lore.

 

 

I hadn't thought of a mental transform. And this would possibly be a better build. Thanks!

[Nadrakas]

The Demon's name cannot be spoken, par se. It does in fact require a level of understanding. However, someone who can Speak (notice the capitalization), CAN tell someone else the Demon's name. And the Demon cannot command someone to share its Name for that reason (not that it would want to).

 

As for "recorded inside a computer" that means both if the Written form of the Name is scanned (think Moloch from Buffy) or if Mechanon were to learn the Name.

 

 

You make a valid argument.

Okay, I googled this, but am not certain of the context you are implying.

 

 

 

 

 

I hadn't thought of a mental transform. And this would possibly be a better build. Thanks!

You are very welcome.

 

~ N

[Jhaierr]

As for Mind Scan being Indirect...the description of Mind Scan (6e, Page 261) mentions nothing about it being "Indirect."  Unlike several other powers, which are listed specifically as being "Inherently Indirect" (Clairsentience: 6e, Page 181; Telekinesis: 6e, Page 294; Growth: 6e, page 229; Stretching: 6e, Page 285).

 

The only thing that mentions "Indirect" in relation to Mind Control is on page 153 of 6e:

Transdimensional: With the exception of Mind Scan, characters must apply Indirect to Mental Powers before buying Transdimensional.

 

Again, no mention that Mind Scan is "Inherently Indirect," so I take it as not being Indirect.

 

I would posit that Mental powers are, by default, a special kind of "Indirect." They only require one to have a Line of Sight to the target, which can be achieved via Mind Scan regardless of intervening obstacles. I can search the city of Chicago via Mind Scan, locate a target (achieving at least EGO + 10 on Mind Scan), and proceed to use Telepathy, Mind Control, Ego Attack, and Mental Illusions freely on the target because I have my LOS now. These all work regardless of any intervening physical barriers, and thus they do not need any additional Indirect advantage in order to function. (Although, as you mentioned, if this were transdimensional, they would need Indirect per 6E.)

 

Mind Scan is both a Mental Power and a Sensory Power.  The sensory part of Mind Scan works within the Mental Group, so physical barriers mean nothing to it. In fact, I would post that a Barrier with Mental Defense would also mean nothing to it. In order to thwart a Mind Scan, you would need Images or Invisibility vs. the Mental Group.

 

Additionally, since Mental Powers do not care about walls (only LOS, which can be achieved via Mind Scan), then they are automatically Indirect in this way.

 

 

In fact, having a Barrier with Mental Defense appears to offer no defense against Mental Powers unless you are attacking the Barrier itself (6E1 p. 169). 6E says to instead apply Mental Defense as an Area Of Effect or Usable On Others, etc. Mental Defense (and the other special defenses) appear to only protect the Barrier itself, since if a power cannot normally go through a typical wall, then it is automatically blocked by a Barrier and prevented from working anyway. Mental Powers, however, are not stopped by walls if you have LOS in some way.

[Nadrakas]

If anything that quote supports not needing Indirect.  I mean MS doesn't even need it to be Transdimensional (when every other Mental Power does).  Why would a Power that can have a planetary range with no Modifiers or Advantages need it in this particular case?

A couple of things:

1. You do need to buy Transdimensional for Mind Scan to work across Dimensions (Otherwise it doesn't work across dimensions...). (6e, Page 265: Characters can buy Transdimensional for Mind Scan without also buying Indirect.)

 

2. Indirect is Optional, not Automatic/Inherent with Mind Scan.  Indirect is also not forbidden to Mind Scan.  See #1 above (As in "can buy....without buying Indirect.")

Note: Transdimensional does not make a Power Indirect, and Indirect does not make a Power Transdimensional.

 

 

To Answer your question: 

 

Why would a Power that can have a planetary range with no Modifiers or Advantages need it in this particular case?

 

Just because Mind Scan - or any other Power - is "Planetary" in scale, does not make it Indirect.  Slap Megascale on a power.   Does that make it Indirect?? No.  It just makes it Megascale...just like Mind Scan (See Below).  There is a big difference between MegaScale and Indirect.  Neither is mutually inclusive or exclusive from the other.  It is either stated that a Power is Inherently Indirect or Not. 

 

I'll say it again, it is stated Specifically in the descriptions of Clairsentience, Stretching and Telekinesis (and Growth...) that they are Inherently Indirect, but it is never stated so in Mind Scan.

 

Also, there are Modifiers/Advantages that go along with Mind Scan. +30 OMCV modifier/adder to help off-set those pesky "Scan Modifiers." For the other Advantages, please see the writeup.

 

 

Now, please let me try explaining this another way.

 

First, a short synopsis of the various components that we're talking about (The Mental Sense Group, Minds Scan and Indirect):

1) Mental Sense Group (6e, Page 208)

A. Mental Sense Group includes Mental Awareness and Mind Scan.

 

B. Mental Sense Group provides the following Sense Modifiers: Range.

 

C. Mental Awareness functions as a Sense.

 

D. Mental Sense Group doesn’t provide the Sense Modifier to other Senses assigned to the group.

 

 

2. Sense (6e, Page 214)

A. Can use a Sense w/o a 1/2 phase action.

 

B. Set off by contact at any time.

 

 

3) Mind Scan (6e, Page 261)

A. Mind Scan is a Sense

 

B. Operates in “360 Degrees” (in the sense that it searches an entire area at once)

 

C. Is a Targeting Sense for other Mental Powers (At EGO +20, for other attacks as well)

 

D. Range is "Special" (No Range Penalty, though GM should limit to Planet; exceptions exist depending upon Campaign Needs/Genre).

 

E. Mind Scan is MegaScale at the +1¼ level because it can search for minds on a planet. It may be bought up from there at the usual rate of +¼ per step on the MegaScale Table.

Note: I'll say it again: MegaScale, not Indirect.

 

F. Mind Scan Modifiers based on Number of Minds being scanned (ie: Class of Minds).

 

 

4) Indirect (6e, Page 335):

A. Allows a character to alter Source/Path of an attack. This allows the attack to ignore/bypass obstacles between the attacker and target (walls, fences, and Barriers)

 

B. The Source of a power is the character/device/the like that’s using the power. Usually a character is the Source Point of all of his powers — Mental Blasts targets from his mind.

 

C. A character can buy Indirect to change the Source Point of a power and define it as being somewhere other than himself.

I Hear My Names!: Source Point is defined as the Qliphotic Entities Name in a Person/Being/Computers Mind/Memory/Storage

 

 

 

Here is an extract from Mind Scan (6e, Page 262):

"A character can even define his search area as “the corner west apartment on the fifth floor of the building on E. Madison Avenue” if he really wants to narrow down the search. (However, the GM may restrict this ability in the interest of common and dramatic sense. For example, perhaps the mentalist has to actually be looking at the building in question to search so precise an area as a single apartment, or the mentalist must have visited that location previously [or have once been in substantial mental contact with someone who has].)"

 

 

Why, if the character is able to narrow his search, would there be any limits placed?  If Mind Scan is truly Indirect, then wouldn't it make sense that the character could stand off wherever he/she is and do his/her thing and not have to actually watch the building? (ie: Be the Source)  Instead, per the potential "restriction," the character may have to be looking at or have visited the place in question.  Perhaps even have been in "substantial mental contact with someone who has...". 

 

1. This doesn't sound like a power that is ignoring obstacle (Per 4A).

 

2. It does sound like the power is coming from the Character (Per 4B).

 

Sorry, it doesn't sound like Mind Scan is Indirect.

 

The way I wrote up the Power, I Hear My Names!, is to define the Source as being the Qliphotic Entities Name -- Not the Qliphotic Entity itself (Names Have Power...).  That is where it originate, with the Name in the Mind of the Victim, wherein it bypasses all non-personal defenses, such as Barrier built with Mental Defense..

 

In order to do this, it required the Indirect Advantage.

 

Sorry for the Length...

 

Peace.

 

 

~ M

[Nadrakas]

I would posit that Mental powers are, by default, a special kind of "Indirect." They only require one to have a Line of Sight to the target, which can be achieved via Mind Scan regardless of intervening obstacles. I can search the city of Chicago via Mind Scan, locate a target (achieving at least EGO + 10 on Mind Scan), and proceed to use Telepathy, Mind Control, Ego Attack, and Mental Illusions freely on the target because I have my LOS now. These all work regardless of any intervening physical barriers, and thus they do not need any additional Indirect advantage in order to function. (Although, as you mentioned, if this were transdimensional, they would need Indirect per 6E.)

 

A Sense...not a special kind of "Indirect."  If a Character applied MegaScale Area of Affect to the Sight Group, that wouldn't make it Indirect, even though the effect would be similar.

Note: Mind Scan is MegaScaled

 

I understand the "attack thru Mind Scan" - not just for Mental Powers, but for other Attack Powers (Ego +20).  However, that does not mean that it's Indirect (See below).

 

 

 

Mind Scan is both a Mental Power and a Sensory Power.  The sensory part of Mind Scan works within the Mental Group, so physical barriers mean nothing to it. In fact, I would post that a Barrier with Mental Defense would also mean nothing to it. In order to thwart a Mind Scan, you would need Images or Invisibility vs. the Mental Group.

 

Additionally, since Mental Powers do not care about walls (only LOS, which can be achieved via Mind Scan), then they are automatically Indirect in this way.

 

 

In fact, having a Barrier with Mental Defense appears to offer no defense against Mental Powers unless you are attacking the Barrier itself (6E1 p. 169). 6E says to instead apply Mental Defense as an Area Of Effect or Usable On Others, etc. Mental Defense (and the other special defenses) appear to only protect the Barrier itself, since if a power cannot normally go through a typical wall, then it is automatically blocked by a Barrier and prevented from working anyway. Mental Powers, however, are not stopped by walls if you have LOS in some way.

 

6e, Page 169:

Similarly, an Opaque Barrier blocks Line Of Sight with the defined Sense (Group), thus preventing a character with Mental Powers from attacking through it unless he can get around it somehow (for example, by flying into the air and looking over the Barrier at his target).

 

If a character or area is englobed (6e, Page 171) and if the Barrier is Opaque, then those inside are effectively "Invulnerable" to Mental Attacks (and Mind Scan...), per the above.

 

Similarly, per the suggestion on Barrier (6e, Page 169), if a Mental Defense is defined as "Area of Effect," then Indirect would bypass it.

 

Sorry, but I'm not sure we're going to agree on this.

 

 

~ M

[bigbywolfe]

A couple of things:

1. You do need to buy Transdimensional for Mind Scan to work across Dimensions (Otherwise it doesn't work across dimensions...). (6e, Page 265: Characters can buy Transdimensional for Mind Scan without also buying Indirect.)

*Sigh* Yes, but for every other Mental Power you need Transdimensional AND Inderect.  The lack of needing Indirect in a special case points to the lack of needing it in the general case.

 

2. Indirect is Optional, not Automatic/Inherent with Mind Scan.  Indirect is also not forbidden to Mind Scan.  See #1 above (As in "can buy....without buying Indirect.")

Note: Transdimensional does not make a Power Indirect, and Indirect does not make a Power Transdimensional.

 

 

I never said, or even implied, that it did.  

[Nadrakas]

A couple of things:

1. You do need to buy Transdimensional for Mind Scan to work across Dimensions (Otherwise it doesn't work across dimensions...). (6e, Page 265: Characters can buy Transdimensional for Mind Scan without also buying Indirect.)

*Sigh* Yes, but for every other Mental Power you need Transdimensional AND Inderect.  The lack of needing Indirect in a special case points to the lack of needing it in the general case.

"Sigh" indeed.  Where you see Indirect, I see a power that has been given MegaScale to the Planetary Level.  Mind Scan is affected by Opaque Barriers, and by inference is affected by Area of Effect Mental Defenses -- solution is Indirect.  Otherwise, it would outright say Indirect in the Power description and in the Advantages section following the power.

 

 

2. Indirect is Optional, not Automatic/Inherent with Mind Scan.  Indirect is also not forbidden to Mind Scan.  See #1 above (As in "can buy....without buying Indirect.")

Note: Transdimensional does not make a Power Indirect, and Indirect does not make a Power Transdimensional.

I never said, or even implied, that it did.

No, you did not imply that. I was stating a "Couple of things..."

 

 

However, you did say the below earlier on. (Disregard...this was written by Jhaierr -- I posted this late at night)

 

Do you need Indirect for Mind Scan? Isn't it indirect already? Maybe I misunderstand why you added that advantage...

 

and (Again, disregard...this was written by Jhaierr -- I posted this late at night)

 

I would posit that Mental powers are, by default, a special kind of "Indirect." They only require one to have a Line of Sight to the target, which can be achieved via Mind Scan regardless of intervening obstacles. I can search the city of Chicago via Mind Scan, locate a target (achieving at least EGO + 10 on Mind Scan), and proceed to use Telepathy, Mind Control, Ego Attack, and Mental Illusions freely on the target because I have my LOS now. These all work regardless of any intervening physical barriers, and thus they do not need any additional Indirect advantage in order to function. (Although, as you mentioned, if this were transdimensional, they would need Indirect per 6E.)

 

I was trying to clarify that Indirect is Optional.

Note: Per 6e, Page 153 -- I missed this the first time you posted it, but you don't need Indirect with a Transdimensional Mind Scan.  Why?  Not exactly sure, but I still see the "Source" of the Power as being the Character, unless Indirect is applied. Still doesn't explain why all other Mental Powers must have Indirect when they are Transdimensional, though.  We'll never know, unless we ask though

 

 

There was no attempt to "Poke You In The Eye."

 

I think we have a difference of Opinion here.  Your Seeing Indirect, I'm seeing MegaScale.  I don't see Indirect written into Mind Scan's description, however the fact that it is mentioned in the same sentence with "Transdimensional....and...Indirect" is off-putting.

 

I don't know...perhaps it is a "special Indirect" Power...but heaven help us, do we need another special rule?  I hope not.  It should either be Indirect or Not.  And it should be stated clearly.

 

As I said earlier, I'm not sure we're going to agree on this.

 

Peace.

 

 

~ M

 

 

EDIT: Corrected myself, after being corrected by Jhaierr on who wrote two posts I quoted.  I apologize.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Nadrakas

[Jhaierr]

Just a note: Actually, I said those two posts there, not bigbywolfe.

 

Mind Scan is stopped by walls? So I can't Mind Scan through buildings?

 

Also, Mind Scan is not inherently centered on the character (aside from usually keeping it on a planetary level). As written, I could stand in Paris and Mind Scan in Chicago with no penalty (see the No Range section on p. 265).

 

This is why I would say that it is not Indirect per se; it just works differently and does not need Indirect due to the nature of the power.

[bigbywolfe]

Mind Scan is not stoppes by opaque Barriers. Period. If it was you. Couldn't use it on a planetary level as there is cities, building, and A planet between you and the majority of your targets.

 

Opaque Barriers stop most Mental Powers because they are Line of Sight. Extrapolating that they also stop Mind Scan because it is a Mental Power, even though it os not Line of Sight, makes no sense whatsoever.

[Nadrakas]

Just a note: Actually, I said those two posts there, not bigbywolfe.

Sorry about that.  It was late, after a looong day at work. 

 

I have corrected myself in the above post.  Again, I apologize.

 

For reference, the following are all Mental Powers (6e, Page 148):

• Mental Blast
• Mental Illusions
• Mind Control
• Mind Link
• Mind Scan
• Telepathy

 

 

Mind Scan is stopped by walls? So I can't Mind Scan through buildings?

Yes, you can scan thru Walls & Buildings.

 

In 6e, Page 148, it states "Conventional barriers don’t stop Mental Powers" -- However, the Barrier Power (with the Opaque advantage) is not "Conventional)...

 

A bit later on Page 148 it clarifies by adding "In some cases the GM may require a character to make an appropriate PER Roll or EGO Roll to make sure he has sufficient LOS to use a Mental Power.  If he fails the roll, either no LOS exists, or the level of recognizability is “fuzzy.” In the latter case, the GM might consider imposing the Range Modifier on the mental attack, to simulate the difficulty the character has “locking on” to the target." 

 

 

Also, Mind Scan is not inherently centered on the character (aside from usually keeping it on a planetary level). As written, I could stand in Paris and Mind Scan in Chicago with no penalty (see the No Range section on p. 265).

Well, there is a Penalty...depending on how many "people" are being Scanned.  But I get what you mean.

 

As to the "No Range" limitation on 6e, Page 265...noted.  I think it's a property of MegaScale being "brought" down to size"    (note the quotations around "centers on" in the "No Range" limitation.).

 

It is a Ranged power with a "Special" Range.  As noted on 6e, Page 261: "Mind Scan doesn’t have a standard “range” per se, and is not subject to the Range Modifier — a character in New York City can, for example, Mind Scan the city of Los Angeles without suffering any Range Modifier. However, Mind Scan’s range is not actually unlimited. In general the GM should limit Mind Scan to planetary ranges — a character on Earth can Mind Scan anywhere on Earth, but not on the Moon or Mars."

Note: The character is scanning at range, but without Range penalties.

 

Also, as Mind Scan is a Mental Power, then it needs an LoS.  See the above quote from Page 148 and the following from the sidebar on 6e, Page 149: "For example, a character with Mental Powers might hide in the crowd and mentally attack the enemy without being seen, or even stay far away from the battle and make all his attacks using Line Of Sight with long-range Senses or Mind Scan." (Emphasis is mine).

 

Line of Site established via long-range Senses or Mind Scan. To use the Paris/Chicago example, the Character is in Paris, uses Mind Scan which originates from him/her, to scan Chicago.  If the Mind Scan did not center upon the character, then the Power would be Generated from Somewhere Else, and the Somewhere Else would be the "Source," which by definition would make it Inherently Indirect.

 

 

 

This is why I would say that it is not Indirect per se; it just works differently and does not need Indirect due to the nature of the power.

 

I agree that it is not Indirect (per se).  Yes it is different, in that it is automatically considered MegaScale at the +1 1/4 Level because it can search for minds on a Planet

 

 

 

~ M

[bigbywolfe]

 

 

Also, as Mind Scan is a Mental Power, then it needs an LoS.  See the above quote from Page 148 and the following from the sidebar on 6e, Page 149: "For example, a character with Mental Powers might hide in the crowd and mentally attack the enemy without being seen, or even stay far away from the battle and make all his attacks using Line Of Sight with long-range Senses or Mind Scan." (Emphasis is mine).

 

 

"Also, as Mind Scan is a Mental Power, then it needs an LoS. "

 

No it doesn't.

 

 "For example, a character with Mental Powers might hide in the crowd and mentally attack the enemy without being seen, or even stay far away from the battle and make all his attacks using Line Of Sight with long-range Senses or Mind Scan." (Emphasis is mine).

 

Yes, using Line of Sight or Mind Scan, because Mind Scan doesn't require Line of Sight.  (Emphasis mine)

It wouldn't say you need LoS OR Mind Scan to attack if Mind Scan required LoS in the first place. 

[Nadrakas]

Mind Scan is not stoppes by opaque Barriers. Period. If it was you. Couldn't use it on a planetary level as there is cities, building, and A planet between you and the majority of your targets.

 

Opaque Barriers stop most Mental Powers because they are Line of Sight. Extrapolating that they also stop Mind Scan because it is a Mental Power, even though it os not Line of Sight, makes no sense whatsoever.

 

 

Mind Scan is a Mental Power (6e, Page 148):

• Mental Blast
• Mental Illusions
• Mind Control
• Mind Link
• Mind Scan (Emphasis is Mine)
• Telepathy

 

Mind Scan is Line of Site (6e, Page 148 and sidebar example Page 149)

Page 148: "In some cases the GM may require a character to make an appropriate PER Roll or EGO Roll to make sure he has sufficient LOS to use a Mental Power.  If he fails the roll, either no LOS exists, or the level of recognizability is “fuzzy.” In the latter case, the GM might consider imposing the Range Modifier on the mental attack, to simulate the difficulty the character has “locking on” to the target."

 

Page 149: "For example, a character with Mental Powers might hide in the crowd and mentally attack the enemy without being seen, or even stay far away from the battle and make all his attacks using Line Of Sight with long-range Senses or Mind Scan." (Emphasis is mine).

 

 

Mind Scan is part of the Mental Sense Group (6e, Page 208)

"The Mental Sense Group includes Mental Awareness and Mind Scan."

 

 

Mental Powers are stopped by Opaque Barriers. (6e, Page 169).

"...an Opaque Barrier blocks Line Of Sight with the defined Sense (Group), thus preventing a character with Mental Powers from attacking through it unless he can get around it somehow (for example, by flying into the air and looking over the Barrier at his target)."  Emphasis is mine.

 

 

Mind Scan is "Automatically MegaScale" at the +1 1/2 Level.

"Mind Scan is automatically considered to have MegaScale at the +1¼ level because it can search for minds on a planet. It may be bought up from there at the usual rate of +¼ per step on the MegaScale Table."

• Therefore, you can use it on a Planetary Level. It is not stopped by Cities, buildings and the like.

NOTE: The Errata changes the MegaScale to the +2 Level.

 

 

In Summary:

• Minds Scan is a Mental Power
• Mind Scan is Line of Site
• Mind Scan is part of the Mental Sense Group
• Mind Scan is stopped by Opaque Barriers
• Mind Scan is Automatically MegaScale

 

Peace.

 

 

~ M

 

 

EDIT: Added Errata Link for MegaScale at +2 Level

Edited October 30, 2013 by Nadrakas

[Nadrakas]

"Also, as Mind Scan is a Mental Power, then it needs an LoS. "

 

No it doesn't.

 

 "For example, a character with Mental Powers might hide in the crowd and mentally attack the enemy without being seen, or even stay far away from the battle and make all his attacks using Line Of Sight with long-range Senses or Mind Scan." (Emphasis is mine).

 

Yes, using Line of Sight or Mind Scan, because Mind Scan doesn't require Line of Sight.  (Emphasis mine)

It wouldn't say you need LoS OR Mind Scan to attack if Mind Scan required LoS in the first place. 

"Sigh"

 

6e, Page 148:  "Mental Powers do not have the standard Range (10m x Base Points) — a character can use them to attack any character within his Line Of Sight (LOS). LOS means the character has direct perception of or can perceive any part of the target with a Targeting Sense. A character can establish LOS with any Targeting Sense. The Range Modifier does not apply to Mental Powers."

 

Mind Scan is a Mental Power.  Being that it is a Mental Power, it requires LOS -- Direct Perception or perceive any part of the target with a Targeting Sense.

 

 

~ M

[bigbywolfe]

HHMIND CONTROL

Type: Mental Power/Attack Power

Duration: Instant

Target: Target’s DMCV

Range: LOS

 

HHMENTAL ILLUSIONS

Type: Mental Power/Attack Power

Duration: Instant

Target: Target’s DMCV

Range: LOS

 

HHMENTAL BLAST

Type: Mental Power/Attack Power

Duration: Instant

Target: Target’s DMCV

Range: LOS

 

HHMIND LINK

Type: Mental Power

Duration: Persistent

Target: Target’s DMCV

Range: LOS

 

HHMIND SCAN

Type: Mental Power/Sensory Power

Duration: Constant

Target: Target’s DMCV

Range: Special (see text)

 

Notice anything?  

 

I don't know how much more clearly this can be said.  If Mind Scan required LoS you couldn't use it to detect minds inside a building, or over the horizon, or (insert dozens of other examples).  

 

Yes, Mind Scan is a Mental Power, but it is also a Sensory Power with it's own rules.  

From 6E2 pg 14

 

Darkness And Flash Versus

The Mental Sense Group

The Mental Sense Group is affected by Flash

and Darkness somewhat differently than most

other Sense Groups. This is because Mental

Powers can be targeted two ways: through eyesight

(or other Targeting Senses) or through Mind Scan. 

 

So "eyesight" (ie. LoS) is different than Mind Scan. But wait, there's more:

 

A Darkness versus the Mental Sense Group

 

prevents any use of Mental Awareness or Mind

Scan by affected characters. It also prevents the use

of Telepathy and Mind Link, since, like a Darkness

versus Hearing, it affects both the “mental

hearing” and the “mental voice” aspects of those

Powers. However, if the victim has LOS to his

target, he can still use Telepathy and Mind Link

on that target, since they work either through a

Mind Scan “circuit” or through LOS. Mind Scan

itself does not work on an LOS basis, so it doesn’t

matter whether a character in a Mental Sense

Group Darkness field can see his target — the

Mind Scan is effectively “blacked out.”

 

 

 

If that is not definitive enough for you we can go ask Steve, but it seems pretty dang clear to me. 

[Jhaierr]

What bigbywolfe said, and also:

 

Page 149: "For example, a character with Mental Powers might hide in the crowd and mentally attack the enemy without being seen, or even stay far away from the battle and make all his attacks using Line Of Sight with long-range Senses or Mind Scan." (Emphasis is mine).

 

 

Mental Powers are stopped by Opaque Barriers. (6e, Page 169).

"...an Opaque Barrier blocks Line Of Sight with the defined Sense (Group), thus preventing a character with Mental Powers from attacking through it unless he can get around it somehow (for example, by flying into the air and looking over the Barrier at his target)."  Emphasis is mine.

 

The first quote would be better understood if clarified as such: "...make all his attacks using Line Of Sight with long-range Senses or using Mind Scan." Mind Scan is an alternative way of establishing Line Of Sight; therefore it does not require Line Of Sight itself, as that would make no sense. It is not an Attack power.

 

In the second quote, the key part of the phrase is "...an Opaque Barrier blocks Line Of Sight with the defined Sense (Group)."

 

Let us say that DarkMind the evil telepath is standing 10m away from Stalwart, a forcefield-generating hero. DarkMind has, among other things, Mental Attack and Mind Scan. The following things could happen (given Stalwart's forcefield VPP). Stalwart creates a Barrier with the following characteristics that stands between himself and DarkMind:

1. 10 PD/10 ED. As DarkMind can see through the Barrier and establish LOS easily through the by-default-transparent-to-all-Senses Barrier using his Normal Sight, he may attack him normally with his Mental Attack.
2. 10 PD/10 ED and Opaque to the Hearing Sense Group. As DarkMind can see through the Barrier and establish LOS using his Normal Sight, he may attack him normally with his Mental Attack.
3. 10 PD/10 ED and Opaque to the Sight Sense Group. As DarkMind cannot see through the Barrier using his Normal Sight, he cannot attack him normally with his Mental Attack, as he has no active Targeting Sense to establish LOS with. However, DarkMind has Mind Scan, which he can use to locate Stalwart with an EGO + 10 effect roll. After he has done this and established a lock-on, the next phase he can make his Mental Attack on Stalwart, as Mind Scan can be used to target someone with Mental Powers (or more) if the effect roll is high enough.
4. 10 PD/10 ED and Opaque to the Mental Sense Group. As DarkMind can see through the Barrier and establish LOS using his Normal Sight, he may attack him normally with his Mental Attack. It doesn't matter if the Mental Sense Group is blocked; that doesn't affect LOS via Sight. However, Mind Scanning for Stalwart's location would be fruitless, as Mind Scan uses the Mental Sense Group.
5. 10 PD/10 ED and Opaque to the Mental Sense Group and the Sight Sense Group. DarkMind cannot establish LOS with his Normal Sight and cannot use Mind Scan to establish a lock-on and target him that way.  Stalwart is (at least for the time being) protected from mental attacks by DarkMind. Luckily, DarkMind has an astral form than he can send through the Barrier (but that's another story)...

Essentially, it depends on what Sense is blocked (via Opaque) by the Barrier. If it interferes with a Targeting Sense and that Targeting Sense is used to establish LOS with the target, then it will stop Mental Powers from working on the Target. Only the "Opaque to Mental Sense Group" adder would block Mind Scan. Likewise, the Power "Invisibility to Mental Sense Group" would make one invisible to Mind Scan.

 

Therefore, Mind Scan does not use LOS to find another mind and establish a lock-on; it is a Mental Sensory Power that creates LOS for other Mental Attack Powers. Thus, Mind Scan is not stopped by just any sort of Opaque Barrier--only Barriers that are Opaque to Mind Scan or the Mental Sense Group.

[Lucius]

So if "Knowing the Name" implies a certain level of understanding, but a computer is held to "Know" if the written Name (sigil?) is scanned, does it follow that a computer is able to "understand" the Name when presented with it?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says it backwards