Combined Attacks as Compound Power ("Electrified Bullets")

[Kraven Kor]

Trying to build a power and as I'm a bit rusty I need a refresher.

 

Let's say I want to build a gun that does a standard RKA to PD attack.

I then want to also deal an RKA to ED attack if the bullet hits.

Here is the basic gun build (note;  The "Aether" limitation is probably not acceptable in most campaigns and is unique to my own setting - the gun has charges as bullets you have to reload, and then a fuel tank for the propellant.)

 

Standard Aether Revolver:  Killing Attack - Ranged 1 1/2d6, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Autofire (3 shots; +1/4) (37 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 9-13 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), 6 Reloadable (can carry additional rounds, reloading takes 1/2 phase per round) Charges (-1/2), Beam (-1/4), Costs Half Endurance (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Aether (Fuel; 1 cannister can fire 20-25 shots) (-1/4)

 

Would just making the second RKA linked to the first work?  Or would there need to be two separate attack rolls or treated as a multi-attack or something?  Would they need to be a combined power for the purpose of Active Points (I'd think yes?)

I basically want the electric damage to automagically occur if the PD attack hits the target, with the base attack applied to PD/rPD, and the electric attack applied to ED/rED.

[Sean Waters]

Have not looked it up, but 'linked' should work fine without needing any cunning combat maneouvres.  Now I have looked it up, and I'm sticking with my answer:

 

6.2.385:

 

When a character uses two (or more) Linked

powers, he activates and uses them simultaneously.

If the lesser and greater powers are both

Attack Powers, he must use them against the

same target. He only makes one Attack Roll to

hit with them, and it must be the same type of

Attack Roll — a power that uses a DEX-based

Attack Roll cannot be Linked with one that uses

an MCV Attack Roll, except with GM’s permission.

However, the target gets to apply his defenses

separately against the powers.

[Greywind]

I'd just go with Linked.

[Kraven Kor]

Yup, RAW and all - just didn't have books handy and, well, uh...  "It's been a while..."  

[Kraven Kor]

SO MUCH TEXT

 

Lightning Gun:  (Total: 55 Active Cost, 14 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Ranged 1 1/2d6, Autofire (3 shots; +1/4), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4) (37 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 9-13 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), 6 Reloadable (can carry additional rounds, reloading takes 1/2 phase per round) Charges (-1/2), Beam (-1/4), Costs Half Endurance (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Aether (Fuel; 1 cannister can fire 20-25 shots) (-1/4) (Real Cost: 8) <b>plus</b> Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6 (15 Active Points); OAF (-1), Linked (Standard Aether Revolver; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; -3/4), Beam (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 5) <b>plus</b> Endurance Reserve  (12 END, 0 REC) Reserve:  (3 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Charge (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances (After Recharging for 1 Full Day); -1 1/4), OAF (-1), Restrainable (Artifice) (-1/2) (Real Cost: 1)

 

 

Notes:  END cost:  Firing the Gun takes 2 END from the person firing the weapon, and if charging the bullets, 1 END from the Powercore END Reserve.

 

Reloading takes 1/2 phase action (move action) per bullet or charge.  Changing out the Aether Cannister takes 1 Minute, or 1 Turn with a successful Weaponsmith: Aether Weapons roll.  Recharging the Powercore requires 1 full day of charging using appropriate Artifice equipment (generally only possible in a lab or base; most such recharging equipment is NOT mobile.)

 

[Christopher]

There is an alternative to Linked for Powers with same game mechanic:

Multiple Speical Effects. (APG I 138)

Not to be mistaken for "Varriable Special Effect" (6E1 362).

The 6E Advantage allows you to choose wich special effect to use.

The APG advantage let's your attacks count as one special effect or the other, wichever is worse for the target after limited defenses and Vulnarabilities/Succeptibilities are taken into account. You do not need to choose, wichever is worst for the target automatically takes effect.

 

For example a morning star damage could be written as:

KA, Multiple Special Effects (Blunt and Piercing damage; +1/4).

 

If this weapon hit's a Skeleton with Extra Defenses vs Piercing, but Vulnerability to Blunt damage the weapon would count as Blunt - bypassing the piercing defenses and hitting the vulnerability automatically.

 

I find this is also a good way to simulate stuff like "Silver lined Weapons are more effective agaisnt Werewolfs":

Normal Sword (Cutting Soecial effect)

Silver lined Sword, Multiple Special Effects (Cutting and Silver Special Effect)

This weapon would work well agaisnt Werewolfes (use thier lack of defenses, Vulnerability or inability to regenerate Silver based damage), but still trigger a Vulnerability to Cutting Attacks. In a way it gives "target the weakness" a Pricetag.

[Kraven Kor]

No, the idea here is to specifically make a gun that shoots charged bullets, dealing damage against both PD (the bullet itself) and ED (the electrical discharge on impact.)

[Christopher]

No, the idea here is to specifically make a gun that shoots charged bullets, dealing damage against both PD (the bullet itself) and ED (the electrical discharge on impact.)

The thing is that is actually not advantageous at all. It is a severe limitation on the damaging effect! Basically you have a variant of Reduced Penetration here (wich let's the power count half vs PD and half vs ED with different special Effects).

Note that all book examples for linked never let both powers go against similar defense levels or even link two identical powers (we have PD and Flash defense, Entangle and ED, PD and LS:Immunity to Poision).

 

HERO is not like D&D, where 5 Damage Fire+5 Damage Slashing is a good thing. When trying to translate stuff between Systems it is important to know why things are built a certain way. The 5 Fire+5 Slashing Attack is built for the specific purpose to circumvent defenses (Specifically Protection from Elements (Fire) and Damage Resistance) - even if the target has one, half the damage will still get through. The closest equivalent in HERO for this is Multiple Special Effects.

 

I think there is a mistake in the build of your gun (or only the writeup), in that you applied Autofire to the greater power but not the lesser. Wich means this Rule from APG I 144 would apply:

"If a character Links two attacks that both have Autofire, but they have different rates of Autofire, when he uses them together both attacks must use the same number of shots, fired at the same targets. That means the attack with the higher rate of Autofire can’t ever use its full Autofire unless it’s the greater power (and thus can be used without the lesser power)".

Inferring from that you could either fire a Single Shoot Bullet+Electricity, or 1-3 Shoots of only the bullet part.

 

If you want to 3 shoot Autofire Electric Bullets the AP would be:

1.5d6 KA (25 base), Autofire 3 (+1/4), Increased Stun Multiplier (+1/4), 37 AP

plus

1d6 KA (15 base), Autofire 3 (+1/4), 19 AP

Total: 56 AP

against 6 rPD and 6 rED you will not get any relevat body through on average roll

 

This is going to get a lot less damage through then just plain

3D6 KA (45 Base), Autofire 3 (+1/4), 56 AP

 

Even a Multiple Special Effects build is going to do more effective (and it could use if one defense was weaker then the other).

2d6+1(35 base), Autofire 3(+1/4), Multiple Special effects (Electricity, +1/4*), 52 AP

 

*I asume Electricty is a common Specia Effect for a game where Electric bullets are possible.

[Kraven Kor]

All I am doing is reasoning from effect here.

 

The gun fires a bullet, and that bullet is electrified.

 

The bullet does damage vs. PD, the electricity vs. ED, and they are linked such that if the bullet hits, regardless of whether or not it does damage, the electricity discharges and may or may not do additional damage.

 

It is a disadvantageous power build over what you are recommending, and that is the entire point to building it this way rather than the way you describe, as this is for my somewhat realistic / gritty Steampunk Fantasy HERO game.  It will be advantageous if attacking something resistant to one but weak to the other, to an extent.

 

You are right on the autofire bit.

[Kraven Kor]

Lightning Gun:  (Total: 71 Active Cost, 18 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Ranged 1 1/2d6, Autofire (3 shots; +1/4), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4) (37 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 9-13 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), 6 Reloadable (can carry additional rounds, reloading takes 1/2 phase per round) Charges (-1/2), Beam (-1/4), Costs Half Endurance (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Aether (Fuel; 1 cannister can fire 20-25 shots) (-1/4) (Real Cost: 8) <b>plus</b> Killing Attack - Ranged 1 1/2d6, Autofire (3 shots; +1/4) (31 Active Points); OAF (-1), Linked (Standard Aether Revolver; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; -3/4), Beam (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 9) <b>plus</b> Endurance Reserve  (12 END, 0 REC) Reserve:  (3 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Charge (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances (After Recharging for 1 Full Day); -1 1/4), OAF (-1), Restrainable (Artifice) (-1/2) (Real Cost: 1)

 

Better.

[psyber624]

I believe your Endurance Reserve is built incorrectly (not sure how or why you would build an endurance reserve with a charge?) And it definitely would not be a "recoverable" charge. Recoverable charges are for things like Arrows or Shuriken or the like (i can go pick it up and use it again.) All charges are assumed to recover after 1 day by RAW (unless bought to work differently). Also with only 12 end on a 31 AP power you only get 4 shots, and this is an Autofire 3 weapon??? doesnt really add up...

[Kraven Kor]

I believe your Endurance Reserve is built incorrectly (not sure how or why you would build an endurance reserve with a charge?) And it definitely would not be a "recoverable" charge. Recoverable charges are for things like Arrows or Shuriken or the like (i can go pick it up and use it again.) All charges are assumed to recover after 1 day by RAW (unless bought to work differently). Also with only 12 end on a 31 AP power you only get 4 shots, and this is an Autofire 3 weapon??? doesnt really add up...

 

The Recoverable Charge means the END Reserve can be refilled - but it has 0 REC.

 

I fully admit to doing weird / wrong things with charges and such (like the "Reloadable" modifier - to represent that a character could indeed find ammo, or carry more clips, or the like.)

 

If one has a better way to build it I would be all ears.

[L. Marcus]

END Reserves on Charges is a perfectly legitimate build, I feel.

[psyber624]

END Reserves on Charges is a perfectly legitimate build, I feel.

I can see potential for abuse with that, especially with charges as a limitation.

[L. Marcus]

There's potential abuse in all builds -- that's where GM's Fiat comes in, and I don't mean the car.

[Kraven Kor]

I can see potential for abuse with that, especially with charges as a limitation.

 

Well, I'm the GM for this one - setting up some default equipment and "magic items" and such for my campaign / setting.  I don't see too big of an issue, but if you want to elaborate on potential issues I'm all ears.

 

The idea is the gun has bullets in a clip, so that is the charges, then it has an END reserve to fuel the END costs of the electrical half.  I suppose I could just wrap that into the charges overall.

[psyber624]

I dont have issues with a gun with both charges and an End Reserve, but buying the Reserve itself with charges seems odd (which is what i read from your build). The issue is that the the limitation may not be all that limiting. I mean you bought 0 Rec for your End Reserve so by default it only has one "charge" and yet you applied a -1 1/4 limitation to the power which actually makes it BETTER since it now recharges once a day without paying for any Rec.

 

Now granted this is a small item and the cost break on the End Reserve itself is extremely minor but this creates a precedent showing that you will allow this sort of build into your campaign. Consider the following build:

 

End Reserve: 200 End, 0 Rec, 4 Charges (-1), 50 AP 25 RC

 

vs your standard build:

 

End Reserve: 200 End, 3 Rec, 52 AP, 52 RC.

 

The charge build would actually be able to get 800 End per day, far more than needed, for less than half the cost of a "standard" End reserve. So the charge limitation is actually making the build MORE powerful, rather than less.

[Lucius]

psyber: I don't have a rebuttal to that. But I like the way you illustrate the issue you see.

 

edit: Actually, I do have a rebuttal.

 

A Charge only lasts for a phase. So your first build can only be used 4 times in one day. But on four separate occasions in that day, you can have PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER available - IF you can spend 200 END points in a single phase.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Charge of the Palindromedary Brigade