Conversing Midnight fantasy world to Hero System

[Theros]

I have already done some conversions (races and classes).

 

Magic system seems to be similar to Hero System (no spell lists or class spells).

 

Following text, which is magic system explanation, is borrowed from Midnight 2nd edition book. What kind of way general guidelines can be made based on Hero System?

 

Just as the veil that separates the mortal world from the
celestial realm prevents outsiders from returning to their
native planes and souls from ascending to their final rest, so
to does it prohibit any magical travel to or through other
planes of existence. Spells that rely on planar travel or communication,
such as contact other plane, etherealness, and
teleport, have not been practiced since the Sundering.
This isolation from the other planes is just one change
to magic and spellcasting in the world of MIDNIGHT. Magic is
rare and powerful on Aryth, and new rules for learning and
casting spells have been introduced to better represent the
role of magic in the setting.
 

There are three types of magic in Midnight: channeled,
innate, and divine. Divine magic is that granted by the gods.
Divine magic allows true miracles to be performed, from the
communion of a worshiper with his deity to the raising of the
dead. In MIDNIGHT, however, miracles are few and far
between, and those that are granted are always bent towards
evil ends. Only one god answers prayers in the Last Age of
Eredane, and he is neither benevolent nor merciful. Whether
because of trickery on his part or by simple cause of nature,
the dark god Izrador, the Shadow in the North, is the only god
of Aryth still able to reach his followers and grant them
spells.
 

Innate magic comes not from some outside source, but
from within. This is the primal and dangerous magic of fantastic
creatures as well as the hedge magic of the halflings or
the instinctive magic of the elves.
 

Channeled magic is the type most often used by PCs.
It is the manipulation of the energy and power that surrounds
and binds all of Aryth to create miraculous effects. Channeled
magic includes spells from the bard, druid, or sorcerer/wizard
spell lists from the core rules. A spellcasting character can
learn spells from any of the schools of magic she knows,
regardless of the spell lists in which they are found in the core
rules. Channeled magic uses a feat-based system, and is not
tied to your choice of character class—any character can
learn to cast spells in MIDNIGHT without multiclassing!
This change in magic rules and the rare-magic style of
MIDNIGHT also has an effect on character classes: core classes
with secondary spellcasting or supernatural abilities like
the monk, ranger, and paladin have been removed. In some
cases new core classes have been introduced to fill their niches.
 

Beyond just offering new core classes, however,
MIDNIGHT’S feat-based magic system lets players tailor their
characters with as much or as little spellcasting ability as fits
their vision of their character. Any hero, whether a clever
rogue who benefits from illusion and enchantment magic or a
fully armored fighter who wants the added utility of being
able to cast his own healing spells between battles, can now
dabble in magic in general or focus on the few specific
schools of magic that best suit his needs.

 

MIDNIGHT introduces a new character class for
those who wish to master the power of channeled
magic, called the channeler. The roles once filled by
core spellcasting classes are filled instead by subclasses
of channeler. There are also new prestige
classes that reflect a channeler’s intense focus on
one style or area of spellcasting. The path of the
druid is a true prestige class in MIDNIGHT, for
instance, whose adherents excel at natural magics
and gain power over the plants and animals of Aryth.
The wizard prestige class, meanwhile, offers true
mastery of high-level magic through more traditional
study and the use of arcane texts.

Beyond just separating spellcasting from class
abilities, the feat-based spellcasting system of
MIDNIGHT also presents entirely new rules for learning,
preparing, and casting spells. The class- and
level-based spell slot system, appropriate for other
more civilized fantasy settings but clunky in the
more naturalistic and intuitive magical traditions of
MIDNIGHT, has been replaced. In MIDNIGHT, every
time you cast a spell, you use up a pool of points
called spell energy. For channelers, this pool grows
as they gain levels. For other characters, the pool is
small and increases only slowly, and for the most
part they will find it difficult to cast more than one
or two spells each day. When the need is great, however,
as is so often the case in these dark times, great
sacrifices must be made. Therefore, even when a
spellcaster runs out of spell energy, he may continute
to cast spells at the expense of his own life force.
The number of channelers who have given their lives
in valiant last stands is untold, and many are the tales
of those who traded their own lives to cast a direly
needed healing spell on a wounded warrior or a suffering
innocent.

MIDNIGHT’s new magic system also allows
characters to cast spells spontaneously and, quite
important in this dark age when materials are few
and trade is a luxury, often without material components.
Rituals allow spellcasters to create more powerful
and varied effects than the traditional limited
spell list system, and spell talismans let channelers
cast specific spells or spells from certain schools of
magic much more efficiently. These factors all combine
to give the spellcasters in MIDNIGHT unmatched
versatility, offsetting the lower number of spells they
can generally cast each day.

 

 

[Theros]

Thoughts that I have:

 

1. It is needed to limit "non spell casting professions" spell casting / day. Maybe selling END back from non spell casting professions?

2. Spell casters should be able to use Body to cast spells

3. Three main talents for casting (affinity). Channeled, initiate and divine. Channeled and divine should cost much more than initiate, or channeled should be bind to one particular profession?

4. Magic schools need separate casting talents.

5. Intelligence based spell "levels". Like INT 11 can cast first level spells and so on

6. No components, except in ritual spells

7. Something else?

[Lucius]

Thoughts that I have:

 

1. It is needed to limit "non spell casting professions" spell casting / day. Maybe selling END back from non spell casting professions?

Use END Reserve, and make sure all spells have an END cost that can only come out of such a Reserve. Rename the END Reserve "spell energy" because that's what your source materiel is calling it. Make sure the RECovery is slow enough to suit your vision of how seldom the character can cast spells.

 

The warrior has just as much END as ever they had before for things like running and sword swinging, but a different kind of energy is needed for spellcasting.

 

2. Spell casters should be able to use Body to cast spells

I can think of a number of ways to do this, one of the simplest being another END Reserve with a severe Side Effect: Killing Attack.

 

3. Three main talents for casting (affinity). Channeled, initiate and divine. Channeled and divine should cost much more than initiate, or channeled should be bind to one particular profession?

Do you mean "innate?" I didn't see anything about initiates in the passage you quoted.

 

Also, the point is made that "divine magic" is incredibly rare. If miracles happen seldom and not really under the control of the player characters, it costs nothing because no one pays for it - it just happens when the Shadow of the North or whatever they call the superpowerful nasty Evil decides to hurt someone.

 

Do characters have to learn/know specific spells? or does taking the required "feat" for a school of magic mean access to ANY spell of that type? If the latter, a Variable Power Pool may be the way to do it.

 

4. Magic schools need separate casting talents.

Possibly each one is a separate Variable Power Pool.

 

5. Intelligence based spell "levels". Like INT 11 can cast first level spells and so on

Why?

 

Also, how are you defining "spell levels?"

If you go for Variable Power Pools, the size of the pool determines how much power can be in the spells. If spells are bought individually, the character gets what they pay for.

 

6. No components, except in ritual spells

No spell has Focus as a Limitation.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

7. Something else?

A palindromedary tagline

[Theros]

Use END Reserve, and make sure all spells have an END cost that can only come out of such a Reserve. Rename the END Reserve "spell energy" because that's what your source materiel is calling it. Make sure the RECovery is slow enough to suit your vision of how seldom the character can cast spells.

 

The warrior has just as much END as ever they had before for things like running and sword swinging, but a different kind of energy is needed for spellcasting.

 

 

I can think of a number of ways to do this, one of the simplest being another END Reserve with a severe Side Effect: Killing Attack.

 

 

Do you mean "innate?" I didn't see anything about initiates in the passage you quoted.

 

Also, the point is made that "divine magic" is incredibly rare. If miracles happen seldom and not really under the control of the player characters, it costs nothing because no one pays for it - it just happens when the Shadow of the North or whatever they call the superpowerful nasty Evil decides to hurt someone.

 

Do characters have to learn/know specific spells? or does taking the required "feat" for a school of magic mean access to ANY spell of that type? If the latter, a Variable Power Pool may be the way to do it.

 

 

Possibly each one is a separate Variable Power Pool.

 

 

Why?

 

Also, how are you defining "spell levels?"

If you go for Variable Power Pools, the size of the pool determines how much power can be in the spells. If spells are bought individually, the character gets what they pay for.

 

 

No spell has Focus as a Limitation.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

A palindromedary tagline

 

1. How I can use END Reserve in setting? It sounds good enough. Some example?

 

2. I am thinking that "overcasting" should consume Body. After END Reserve (see above) is consumed character starts to use Body.

 

3. Innate yes...I am going with the thing that characters have to learn every spell separately. Divine magic is actually only for Evil Priests. They get their powers from "the superpowerful nasty Evil" who is the only god at the point when game begins. Priests have separate spells. This setting is different than other D&D/AD&D settings. There are no class spells, which is good. Every character can cast every spells, if their skills and wits are good enough. Spells are categorized by schools and talents (Innate, Divine ...). I want to separate "pure casters" from other characters (e.g. Wizard vs Fighter)

 

OT to this. I read through the history of game world. It is kind of funny. Forces of Darkness did won the good guys, heroes of good guys turned to evil and they are liuetenants of evil. Also other gods tried to punish evil god, just sending him to mortal world. They did mistake and now the good gods are behind the barrier in their own plane and evil god is in full strenght in mortal world...haha...well invented thing I would say. The easiest thing to understand this world is to compare it to Middle-Earth where Sauron won and rules almost every corner of the known world.

 

4. No Variable Pool, something else. I am poor with those for some reason I haven't every get to those really and avoid those when ever it is possible.

 

5. So called basic people don't cast spells in Midnight. Casters are more intelligent, so that is why I wanted some int requirement. I am going to categorize spells using "standard" Active Point / Real Point calculation formula.

[mhd]

It's been a while since I ran Midnight, but wasn't "Innate Magic" just a fancy word for "the other stuff" when it came to magical abilities, i.e. all non-spell based magic? So items, a creature's spell-like abilities and -- most importantly -- the "Heroic Paths". So I don't really see the need for any kind of talent, most of it would just be a standard Power.

 

There probably should be a big difference between Divine and Channeling. Not necessarily Vancian casting for the legates, but a setup that is both more powerful and a bit more predictable wouldn't hurt.

 

And what would be your definition of "Non spell casting profession"? Even in D20 Midnight that line was a bit blurred by the fact that multiclassing was rather common, so you had people with just the Magecraft feat, chars with a few levels of Channeler mixed in and pure dedicated spellcasters, probably even going for the "ancient traditions", i.e. the prestige classes that closely resembled the D&D defaults.

 

In HERO, that's just how many points you're willing to spend. A second-rate perk that limits progression seems a bit artificial to me. I would probably consider limiting the amount of points you're allowed to spend at character creation and during adventuring (e.g. a certain fraction of general power points). Something similar would apply to their innate magic talents, to ensure that there actually is a Heroic Path for them. (Before they all die anyway...)

 

Midnight's spell energy was pretty harsh, if I remember correctly. Level + attribute modifier for dedicated casters? So about three of your most powerful spells per day, and then you'd end up with no "change" for minor magicks. Dipping into your health was rather common when I ran it. As opposed to normal Con drain, you got everything back the next day, so powering one or maybe even two additional spells certainly within the realm of the possible (i.e. with enough hit points left to spare and survive whatever's coming).

 

Now how to model that in HERO is a matter of taste. Is it two or three spells per combat or actually per day? Does skill come into play or just mere innate power? And do you stick with the remaining D&D-ism of "per day" or make spell energy regeneration take a while? Actual BODY damage or a drain that's closer to the D20 version? How important or special locations?

 

Personally I'd feel inclined to go with an endurance reserve that closely mirrors BODY. Same limits, same recovery time. Special locations provide a bonus to that (either straight REC if you want them to camp there, or the equivalent of Healing if it's really powerful).

[mhd]

5. So called basic people don't cast spells in Midnight. Casters are more intelligent, so that is why I wanted some int requirement. I am going to categorize spells using "standard" Active Point / Real Point calculation formula.

You can be an utter lackwit if you don't follow the Hermetic tradition.

 

Never mind that AP maps very badly to any kind of in-world power.

[Theros]

Magic thing is hard to create. Races and classes are easier. I won't strictly follow original rules. I am looking for Hero version that is close to original with same feeling. Definitely not spells per day rule. I think that it is artificial thing...

 

so...?

[Theros]

About heroic paths I have idea to change Feats to powers in Hero System...some are spell like powers without uses END limitation. That needs quite bit of work to do. Still...setting seems to be into my taste and I will work with those.

[Lucius]

If you want to have a humongous list of possible spells that count for a given school, and a character who "has that school" (however we end up representing that in game mechanics) can potentially use any given one of those spells,

 

then if you don't want to use Variable Power Pool, you're basically going to have to go with a relatively arbitrary "Pay X points for access to Y spell list."

 

You'll need to write up the spells, but it will be a lot like writing up equipment - no one's going to pay for them with character points.

 

Balancing this, and especially balancing it in such a way that not everyone wants to be a primary spellcaster - and magic is supposed to be RARE in the setting after all - could be tricky.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

and a well balanced palindromdary

[mhd]

I don't think you need VPPs and school access talents in Midnight, if you're emulating the source. Magic users were hunted, and each single spell was a valuable thing.

 

Unless you're in league with the enemy, of course. Legates get more shiny goodies.

[Theros]

I am going to put Innate Talent. Cost maybe 10 points. Then every school of magic will be bought as separate talent. Maybe cost should be 5 points for those.

 

Heroic paths I am going to do so that every path gets list of skills. Players can buy talents/powers from list using character points. I think that the CP cost will keep players to buy Resurrection as first talent. Maybe I will some limitation as prequisite. Some powers will have daily charges to limit use of Midnight talents. In midnight heroic path feats don't use spell points.

[Theros]

I am now finishing PC race conversions. I came up with following:

 

+1 CON rolls when resisting cold and exhaustion. The Dorns are a hardy people. This bonus reduces recovery lost by one level in cold temperature and END duration is extended to 40 minutes.Additionally, Dorns suffer only half the normal damage (rounded down) from the cold damage caused by these effects.

 

How much this costs CPs?

[Theros]

Second thing came with Orcs...this is related to above:

 

Resistance to Cold: Orcs are children of the north and as such have a natural tolerance for cold weather. They are immune to nonlethal damage caused by cold dangers like cold weather, severe cold or exposure, or extreme cold. Additionally, orcs suffer only half the normal damage (rounded down) from the lethal cold damage caused by extreme cold.

 

What will be the cost for this?

[mhd]

That's practically "Life Support: Safe Environment: Character is safe in Intense Cold", so 2 points.

 

For the Dorns, I'd just say that they have a larger "comfort zone" (6E2 146) and leave it at that. That does pretty much the same as the D20 version, but isn't really worth any points (esp. considering that the total immunity is 2 points).

[Lucius]

That's practically "Life Support: Safe Environment: Character is safe in Intense Cold", so 2 points.

 

For the Dorns, I'd just say that they have a larger "comfort zone" (6E2 146) and leave it at that. That does pretty much the same as the D20 version, but isn't really worth any points (esp. considering that the total immunity is 2 points).

 

 

You're overlooking the "take half damage" aspect. I'd call the first case Damage Reduction 50% Limited to Cold and rule that it also halves the environmental effects (half END loss or half REC reduction, etc,.) The value of the Limitation depends on how common cold based attacks are.

 

The second case probably has the 2 pt immunity as well.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

safe in intense palindromedaries

[Lucius]

1. How I can use END Reserve in setting? It sounds good enough. Some example?

Just look in the rulebook under END Reserve

 

 

2. I am thinking that "overcasting" should consume Body. After END Reserve (see above) is consumed character starts to use Body.

Your END Reserve will have a REC score. Limit it to slow down how often that "spell energy" comes back.

 

Then buy an AID to the END Reserve with a severe Limitation: Costs X BODy.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Instant tagline, just add palindromedary

[Markdoc]

The takes half damage only applies to weather conditions, not to any attacks (even attacks defined as altering weather conditions ), so I'd go for life support and call it good.

 

regards, Mark

[mhd]

What Markdoc said. It's been a while, but as far as I remember the only sources for non-lethal cold damage were exposure. Also known as "rules nobody ever used anyway".

[Markdoc]

What Markdoc said. It's been a while, but as far as I remember the only sources for non-lethal cold damage were exposure. Also known as "rules nobody ever used anyway".

 

Actually I used them, and one of my GM'ing friend did as well. We had a memorable scenario, where my paladin and his posse pursued an evil-doer into the wilderness. We caught up with him in  an area of old graves (think the barrow-downs) but were trapped by a storm, and deep snow. I had to kill my faithful warhorse so that we could survive

 

I will admit though, that that is the exception rather than the rule. My currently most-played character has this resistance to cold thing and although we've been tramping around in snow and ice and even been dunked in the water at midwinter, the issue of exposure has never come up once.

 

cheers, Mark

[Theros]

Just look in the rulebook under END Reserve Your END Reserve will have a REC score. Limit it to slow down how often that "spell energy" comes back.Then buy an AID to the END Reserve with a severe Limitation: Costs X BODy.Lucius AlexanderInstant tagline, just add palindromedary

Just look in the rulebook under END Reserve Your END Reserve will have a REC score. Limit it to slow down how often that "spell energy" comes back.Then buy an AID to the END Reserve with a severe Limitation: Costs X BODy.Lucius AlexanderInstant tagline, just add palindromedary

I am going to use END reserve as stat with separate REC and END. I think adding AID will make things too complicated?

[Theros]

But I will use your idea.

[Steve]

You could also use 1-point versions of Life Support for various lesser effects. The 2-point version would let you stand on Pluto in a superhero game, but you could revise it to say that the character is comfortable in arctic conditions and would still freeze to death on Pluto. A 1-point version would just extend the range of comfort one or two levels, which would work for the lesser effect.

 

50% Damage Reduction versus only cold (-1 Limitation? -1.5 Limitation?) would allow a character to resist even magical cold, but you could say that it is a more advanced talent than merely having 1 or 2 points of Life Support. Normal damage reduction would thus cost 7 points (assuming -1 Limitation) and 15 points for resistant. Having an Orc shrug off a magical cold-based attack would make for an impressive Orc.

[Theros]

Ok. I think that human and elf race from north will get lesser version. Orcs are more harder to decide. Those should gate better version (some extreme cold resistance). Maybe just like you proposed, resistance to cold with limitations will work well enough. Maybe I should combine it with 1 point talent?

[Steve]

You could combine them into one Talent.

 

I would suggest figuring out the cost of each ability you want to include in the Talent and that will give you the total cost of the Talent. You could throw some additional limitations on the Damage Reduction portion like requiring a Constitution roll to have it work. You could also just make it a flat Energy Defense addition of 5 points or more that only works against cold-based damage. Orcs could get a Resistant form of Energy Defense.

 

It would be a bit cheaper that way than getting Damage Reduction.

[Theros]

I will continue working with races and Heroic Paths at tomorrow. I am now thinking daily x1, x2 and x3 spell like heroic path abilities.