How to Build: Angelic Guardian

[TheRealDeal]

Thanks in advance for the feedback. I wanted some input on ways to build the following power:

 

Angelic Guardian: One Ally in LOS suffers BODY or STUN damage. You may suffer the same attack against yourself (as if it hit you) and both you and the Ally suffer only half the damage that gets past your defenses (like Roll with Punch).

 

I have some ideas, but wanted to see if anyone could help me make this cost a bit less than a triggered 50% Damage Reduction effect useable on others and self at range with a Side effect of you suffering the same attack.

[Hyper-Man]

Simplify a little and it's doable.  The owning character doesn't get the benefit of the Damage Reduction.  They do take whatever final damage the target takes past defenses as the Side Effect.

 

You may want to build another similar ability to provide some minimum defenses as well so it can help 'normals' as well.

 

90    Angelic Guardian: (Total: 134 Active Cost, 90 Real Cost) Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50%, Usable By Other (+0), Grantor can only grant the power to others, Recipient must remain within Line of Sight of Grantor, Grantor can take back power at any time, Recipient must be within Limited Range of the Grantor for power to be granted, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1 1/4) (67 Active Points); Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-1/2) (Real Cost: 45) plus Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50%, Usable By Other (+0), Grantor can only grant the power to others, Recipient must remain within Line of Sight of Grantor, Grantor can take back power at any time, Recipient must be within Limited Range of the Grantor for power to be granted, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1 1/4) (67 Active Points); Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-1/2) (Real Cost: 45) - END=0

 

As built this would be a pretty damn effect boost to a team brick.  The Real Cost could be lowered by some more defining Limitations like Costs End.

[Tasha]

One strange artifact of that build is that Damage Reduction is applied after PD and ED is. So it's half whatever damage has gotten though defenses. Which doesn't feel like a Guardian angel that gets in the way of an incoming attack.

 

Perhaps it's really a Barrier with Feedback to the user. Of course that doesn't really half damage. But it fits the Power conception IMHO

 

It could also be done as a Damage Negation with a +1/4 limitation Can only negate up to half the dice in an attack. It would have Usable by others and Trigger like Hyper-man's Damage Reduction build.

[Hyper-Man]

One strange artifact of that build is that Damage Reduction is applied after PD and ED is. So it's half whatever damage has gotten though defenses. Which doesn't feel like a Guardian angel that gets in the way of an incoming attack.

 

Perhaps it's really a Barrier with Feedback to the user. Of course that doesn't really half damage. But it fits the Power conception IMHO

 

It could also be done as a Damage Negation with a +1/4 limitation Can only negate up to half the dice in an attack. It would have Usable by others and Trigger like Hyper-man's Damage Reduction build.

 

77    Angelic Guardian v2: Damage Negation (-6 DCs Physical, -6 DCs Energy), Usable By Other (+0), Grantor can take back power at any time, Grantor can only grant the power to others, Recipient must be within Limited Range of the Grantor for power to be granted, Recipient must remain within Line of Sight of Grantor, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1 1/4) (135 Active Points); Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-1/2), Limited Power Can only negate up to half the dice in an attack (-1/4) - END=0

[Christopher]

Defenses, UOO, Side Effect: Caster takes Feedback based on damage that was prevented.

 

The tricky part is to define "half" the damage in HERO. It is a term you would find in D&D first and it works there for one simple reason - armor does not reduce damage.

In hero armor/defenses do prevent damage. If you half an attacks damage (like you do with reduced penetration, kinda), you might end up doing no damage past defenses. If you split a attacks damage/AP betweenspecial effects, you might end up cutting your damage to 0 too*

There are several different versions of the Feedback rule:

Takes attack before primary target defenses against own defenses.

Takes attack before primary target defenses against own defenses+primary target defenses.

Takes all damage that went past priamry target's defenses, without any defense (the targets defense are your only defense for this feedback).

 

I would propably combine a Defense buff with the last varriant - you take everything that got past defenses. I would avoid not having any defense youself - it would be too easy for normal damage attacks to get body through, wich is not what they are supposed to (at least not much). Either the targets (boosted) defenses or your own should still apply to the damage to shave off the unwanted/secondary part (Body from normal damage attacks, Stun from Killing Attacks).

 

 

*The Multiple Special Effects Advantage from APG I is usuall the best way to deal with "Flaming Swords" and the like. You count it as whatever special effect is worst for the target after defenses.

[TheRealDeal]

To clarify, the power is designed to allow the user to grant some damage mitigation AFTER the fact, most Aborts require you to declare before the attack, Roll with the Punch is the one that allows it after the attack. However, this was designed to bail out an ally who could not abort (took an action that segment) and also designed to be a sure thing (Roll with the Punch requires an opposed OCV at -2 roll and imposes a -2 DCV after the move).

 

I do not want the power to negate all damage (which most of them would if applied before damage is done, like barrier or armor or Damage Negation which would reduce the damage enough that it would bounce off the target harmlessly) but just turn a nasty blow into a more manageable ouch! The name may not be the best for it perhaps, but that is just flavor and I leave names to the players to choose for their powers.

 

My idea for it was a bodyguard type effect which allows you to share their pain. Perhaps the Side Effect should be you suffer the same damage the target ends up suffering and it is a NND type damage with the defense being not using the power!  

 

Would it be reasonable to say have each Ally buy DR 50% for rPD, rED, and MD and just put a limit on them something like:

1) One Recoverable Charge (-1.25)

2) Charge Does not Last 1 Phase, only for 1 Attack (-1/2)

3) Only Useable When within LOS of Sir Frances (-1/2)

4) Only Useable While Sir Frances is not Stunned or KOed (-1/4)

5) Side Effect: Sir Frances suffers Same Damage You Suffer (no defenses) (-1)

 

It is another way to approach it, taking the burden of protecting off Sir Frances' point totals. Assuming the above Limitations are correct, the AP would be 90 (30 for each of the 3 rDR types) divided by 4.5 = 20 Real Cost per PC who wanted it.

 

Would you suggest keeping the power in the hands of Sir Frances or having the fellow PCs share the point burden?

 

Thanks for your suggestions thus far, I wanted to explore the options and see which way the players want to go.

[Tasha]

Other players will NOT want to have to spend precious points on an ability that someone else has control of. The way you describe it then Hyper-Man's first construct with Damage Reduction works great. It may even be good at 25% DR.

[TheRealDeal]

In the build of Hyper-Man, could I link (-1/4) the other DRs to the first for some extra point saving?

 

@Tasha: they still control the power on them, they just cannot use it unless Sir Frances is around and active. If the power was only useable during a full moon, they still have control, but cannot use it unless a full moon is out. Do you object to the limitation being the requirement of a person's presence? Sir Frances is a regular member of the party, and if he should die or leave permanently, I would allow them to re-train the points into something else. 

[Christopher]

To clarify, the power is designed to allow the user to grant some damage mitigation AFTER the fact, most Aborts require you to declare before the attack, Roll with the Punch is the one that allows it after the attack. However, this was designed to bail out an ally who could not abort (took an action that segment) and also designed to be a sure thing (Roll with the Punch requires an opposed OCV at -2 roll and imposes a -2 DCV after the move).

In order to prevent damage, all defenses must be applied before the attack hits. Even if you put a defense on a Trigger, it will usualyl be "too late" to affect the attack that triggered it. Attacks are generally instant, so they cannot be affected after they have been applied to the target.

If you want to reduce damage after it was applied, that is called "healing" by the game system.

 

So you propably need a pre-emptive power, that only works under certain conditions.

I consider "Defenses, only retroactively affect damage after going into superform" a valid construct to make "partialy healed when going to super form". The defense allows you to not have taken the damage in the first place. The limitation says "but you still suffer it till you transform".

 

How about:

Defenses, AoE or ranged UOO*, "Half action per turn to keep bonus active"** or "must abort to use this power to affect an ally"

 

*Normally AoE cannot be used to apply defenses. But for sake of simplicity and asuming other limitations I would consider it applicable.

There is a good argument to allow the ower of this power to "Abort to defend an ally" with it, so a UOO could be applied via abort. And abort goes before the attack that triggered it (whereas other held actions, actions that take no time and the like have to win the Dex Roll with the attacker).

 

**This work a bit like Defense Maneuver under the 10 point/4th level. You(r group) will get the benefit, as long as you have the time to focus on it.

 

 

And of course, before writing a power for something, you should be aware of the rules that already exist. Work on the car that you have, before you try to re-invent the wheel:

One can block for adjacant (melee range) Character. Limited Skil levels can deal with peanlty for "block for others"/"repeated blocks".

One can use "Dive for Cover" to step into an attack.

Optional rules for combat include stuff like interposing (basicalyl a held action to cover an area).

[Lucius]

 

 

There is already a Power, I think called Deflection, that allows one to use Block at range to protect someone else.

 

Just redefine it so that instead of Block, the Defensive Maneuver it allows at range is Roll with Blow. Define a Limitation to also take the damage, and perhaps an Advantage if you want to be able to use it again in the same phase (I think that, unlike Block, by default Roll with Blow only can be used once per phase.)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

guardian palindromedary

[Tasha]

In the build of Hyper-Man, could I link (-1/4) the other DRs to the first for some extra point saving?

 

@Tasha: they still control the power on them, they just cannot use it unless Sir Frances is around and active. If the power was only useable during a full moon, they still have control, but cannot use it unless a full moon is out. Do you object to the limitation being the requirement of a person's presence? Sir Frances is a regular member of the party, and if he should die or leave permanently, I would allow them to re-train the points into something else.

That's not what I am saying. If the players decide they all want to spend 100 points each on team Vehicles or a Team Mascot, that's up to them. In my long experience playing and running the game. Getting Players to buy anything that is outside their power conception is nigh Impossible. Most Players complain to high heaven if you require they buy a team Communicator (5 pts at most). Having a Player require other players to have a power that doesn't work if said PC isn't present will have a VERY hard sale. They will NOT want to spend their precious powerpoints on such an ability.

 

That also ignores what that does to the balance of Defenses for the whole group. Assuming that everyone has standard defenses, you are planning on having a PC give the other PC's another 30pts of Defenses and having them spend 60pts - limitations on the same power. This isn't a good thing for a campaign, you will be making it MUCH harder to challenge the PC's

 

ie assume DC 10 campaign 20def average. On an average hit of 35 stun. the PC takes 15 pts of Stun. With your addition to their defenses they take 7 stun. Assuming 18 Con you would need 39 Stun to Stun the PC, With the Damage Reduction you would need 57 stun to stun the PC's on a hit. A DC 10 attack does a maximum of 60 stun. Can you see the problem? It's a bit better with only 25% Dam Reduction.

 

I would have the player buy Deflection instead. It requires them to actively block the attack. It does deflect the whole thing, but you could take a limit that would partially deflect The damage. What it does is limited to the owner's OCV vs the Attacker's OCV. (each attack deflected after the first is at an additional -2OCV)

[TheRealDeal]

The power would only be usable 1 time per encounter at most, so it is really just a way to soften the blow of an extreme result that would put the PC out of action. I use Fate Points for this currently, and the PCs get them rarely, and one use of a Fate Point is to allow them to Roll with the Punch even if they already acted that segment. I was looking for a way to build this so it worked always when used (Roll with the Punch may fail). 

 

Because PCs get attacked so much more often than mobs (who get attacks a few times and then usually are killed/defeated) it is only a matter of time for an extreme result to hit them. This is my way to mitigate that, as I do not want bad luck to outright kill a Hero in a single blow, unless they did something to invite it. This allows me as GM to use some more risky and threatening encounters without worrying too much about killing off PCs with lucky rolls. Fate Points help in this way, but I wanted to give a better Fate Point option than the Roll with the Punch which can fail to achieve its result if the unlucky Hero rolls poorly on it. I wanted the same result as Roll with the Punch (half damage after defenses) but more as a power that will always work when used, no roll needed. 

 

I explored the option of giving this to another PC (Sir Frances) since it fit his concept, with the drawback he would suffer the damage the other PC avoided. So, since this would be usable by any single PC only 1 time per combat at most (thus the 1 recoverable charge idea), and even then, he would need to use a Fate Point to recover this single recoverable charge, so it would not be a balance issue based on how we play.

 

@Lucius: I like your idea, of reconfiguring Deflection to use Roll with the Punch instead of Block. I just wanted this to be a sure thing, no attack roll needed like Roll with the Punch requires. 

[Lucius]

Use Area Effect: Accurate and enough Skill Levels to make success a virtual certainty. (yes, it's something of a kludge to use Area Effect: Accurate when it's OCV not DCV you're supposed to roll against, but less of a kludge than adapting Deflection to Roll with Blow instead of Block.) Then invoke the "Absolute Effect" rule to say it always works.

 

If it's a once per combat thing, ignore what I said about needing an Advantage to keep doing it.

 

I'm sort of tempted to write it up myself...

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary orders a Roll with Punch thinking it sounds like light refreshment

[TheRealDeal]

I look forward to your write up Lucius if you decide to do it. It sounds like it would be cheaper than the UOO DR path.

[Christopher]

I would have the player buy Deflection instead. It requires them to actively block the attack. It does deflect the whole thing, but you could take a limit that would partially deflect The damage. What it does is limited to the owner's OCV vs the Attacker's OCV. (each attack deflected after the first is at an additional -2OCV)

Deflection has a variant of the Feedback Limitation. But does not take care of Blocking in Melee.

 

I look forward to your write up Lucius if you decide to do it. It sounds like it would be cheaper than the UOO DR path.

The main reason that one is expensive is the DR part, not the UOO path.Depending on campaign this might be enough:

10 Resistant Defenses (ED +PD), AoE, only allies (not self), only when spending Fate point

 

But honestly it sounds like you don't want this to be a power, but a game rule. A campaign rule in a campaign you are GM in particular. You never have to write up a Campaign rule, you just declare them. "You can spend a Fate point to half the damage". Of course with an approach like "half the damage" and houserules in general you will get yourself into balancing hell.

 

If the players decide they all want to spend 100 points each on team Vehicles or a Team Mascot, that's up to them. In my long experience playing and running the game. Getting Players to buy anything that is outside their power conception is nigh Impossible. Most Players complain to high heaven if you require they buy a team Communicator (5 pts at most). Having a Player require other players to have a power that doesn't work if said PC isn't present will have a VERY hard sale. They will NOT want to spend their precious powerpoints on such an ability.

My biggest issue with that is that it is dishonesty regarding the powerlevel. If you declare a 250/50 game and then force everyone to spend 25 points on certain skill, you might as well said "225/50 game and you get those skills for free". Character Taxes like this obfuscate the real power level. Or rather the falsely high Total Value obfuscates the actually lower power level.