Disarm Maneuver

[Ryhope Wood]

Is it just me? The text for this maneuver was difficult to follow without referring to 6E Book 2. It is missing the text that explains that "If the Attack Roll succeeds, the two characters engage in a STR Versus STR Contest: each rolls 1d6 per 5 points of STR and counts the Normal Damage BODY." I would have just assumed it was a Skill versus Skill type contest, but then the text mentioned BODY and I couldn't follow it.

 

Not sure if this is errata or not.

[Ryhope Wood]

Okay. My bad. I found the reference to STR rolls under characteristics on page 17. However, it does seem to be different from 6E Book 2 in that it uses STR damage from the table rather than the rule of thumb of 1D6 per 5 STR.

[bigbywolfe]

Damage from what table? 1d6 per 5 STR IS how you determine STR Damage.

[Scott Baker]

Okay. My bad. I found the reference to STR rolls under characteristics on page 17. However, it does seem to be different from 6E Book 2 in that it uses STR damage from the table rather than the rule of thumb of 1D6 per 5 STR.

The last sentence of the first paragraph on Strength (top left on FHC 17) references both the Strength Table and how the values on the table are calculated.

 

Damage from what table? 1d6 per 5 STR IS how you determine STR Damage.

The Strength Table on FHC 17.

[Ryhope Wood]

Sorry I did not explain myself very well. In 6E Book 2, the wording under disarm says use 1D6 for every 5 STR. In FHC, it says use the exact damage from the STR table. So, if you have STR 8 then according to FHC you would use 1.5 D6. According to 6E Book 2 you would use 1D6 as you have only 1 full increment of 5 STR.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Ryhope Wood

[Lucius]

I just use 3d6 rolls, as I would for a contest involving any other Characteristic. I don't see the rationale for treating STR differently in that regard.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Tug of war with a palindromdary

[Vondy]

I've never liked the grab, escape, and disarm rules in hero. In my games, I convert them to opposed characteristic contests. Ties go to the "defender." The one who wants to escape or retain their weapon.

[Markdoc]

I just use 3d6 rolls, as I would for a contest involving any other Characteristic. I don't see the rationale for treating STR differently in that regard.Lucius AlexanderTug of war with a palindromdary

If I recall correctly, the rationale was that "strength is different". Because of pricing issues in earlier editions, it was the one characteristic that routinely went to high levels in supers games. For a Brick, a strength of 50+ was all but mandatory, whereas in my experience it's been rare to see a DEX, INT or EGO over 50. That meant in many games, contests between someone with a very high STR and someone with a low STR could be routinely expected - and a single characteristic roll-off made it more likely that a very fit normal could - say- beat someone capable of lifting a tank at arm wrestling, etc. The "# of damage dice" roll makes that less likely.

 

That's the rationale. I didn't say it was a good one . Personally, I too have long just used a characteristic rolloff - though to be fair, since I usually run low powered games, that's not a problem anyway.

 

Cheers, Mark

[Lucius]

Hey, at least there is a reason for it. I might even use the "count BODy" method if I were ever running superheroes.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary proposes a "count heads" method

[mhd]

So, what about Trip? There's a second line of defense for me keeping stuff, but not against falling to the ground.
 

Is this some kind of subtle social commentary?

[Lucius]

So, what about Trip? There's a second line of defense for me keeping stuff, but not against falling to the ground.

 

Is this some kind of subtle social commentary?

 

Well, there's Breakfall. But unlike STR, not everyone has the Breakfall Skill.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Any subtle social commentary is going right over the palindromedary's heads

[Markdoc]

Hey, at least there is a reason for it. I might even use the "count BODy" method if I were ever running superheroes.

 

For me, the fact that you have to make exceptions, generally indicates that the rule in question is probably not well-thought out. There were a lot of exceptions and gotchas around STR, most of which resulted from the pricing structure ( and that's been discussed to death in the past). I see this as simply one more (and not one of the worst, to be honest).

 

cheers, Mark

[Vondy]

So, what about Trip? There's a second line of defense for me keeping stuff, but not against falling to the ground.

 

Is this some kind of subtle social commentary?

 

I do that one as ST vs. DX or Breakfall or Acrobatics.

 

Not particularly elegant, but it works.

[Netzilla]

Having disarm go by body rolled makes it easier to handle disarms via ranged attack, speedster grab-bys (where you can add velocity dice) and knockback.  Also, it keeps the disarm maneuver consistent with the way grabs are handled (which a disarm can be seen as a subset of.

[Vondy]

Having disarm go by body rolled makes it easier to handle disarms via ranged attack, speedster grab-bys (where you can add velocity dice) and knockback.  Also, it keeps the disarm maneuver consistent with the way grabs are handled (which a disarm can be seen as a subset of.

 

I also handle grabs (except for damage) as ST vs. ST. DCs easily convert to +1s on die rolls. Its really six of one vs. half dozen of another. Ergo, preferred method.

[mhd]

I do that one as ST vs. DX or Breakfall or Acrobatics.

 

Not particularly elegant, but it works.

I'd want to figure knockback resistance into that, so Aunt May, after a few hours of Tae Bo, isn't totally gonna drop that Brontosaurus/Moon Nazi mech walker.

 

Unless that's intended. I don't judge.

[Vondy]

I'd want to figure knockback resistance into that, so Aunt May, after a few hours of Tae Bo, isn't totally gonna drop that Brontosaurus/Moon Nazi mech walker.

 

Unless that's intended. I don't judge.

That's only relevant in super-heroic campaigns. At the same time, you could also model knockback this way. The attackers roll would be 9 + DC = knockback roll. The defenders roll would be a skill or strength roll modified by relevant factors like knockback resistance, size, density, the root maneuver, etc. The one thing you'd have to develop a modifier for would martial attacks, which have a lower chance of doing knockback. However, knockback isn't a default in Heroic games, You use knockdown instead. That can be modified the same way, but tends to be simpler and have fewer ramifications and applications. I run mostly heroic games, so I haven't run into any real problems with it. Someone running super-heroic games may find it less workable. Of course, the obvious answer to granny going Bruce Lee on the super-sized Nazi mech-walker not to roll any dice to begin with. Just say "no." Sheesh.

[Netzilla]

You know, this conversation brings me back to my long standing desire to unify the 'success roll' mechanics in Hero. Skills and attacks are computed differently and, as is thread demonstrates, STR v STR contests are handled in a a third fashion. Personally, I've kind of always thought that all this should be modelled off the to hit mechanics. You'd use skill level in place of OCV and a difficulty number in place of DCV. Stats would contribute on a 1:5 or 1:3 basis (I'd personally go 1:3 but I could see that making super stats too powerful). You'd also need to change the way familiarities and general skills work.

 

Eh, just an idle tangent. Nothing to see here. Move along.

[Lucius]

I also handle grabs (except for damage) as ST vs. ST. DCs easily convert to +1s on die rolls. Its really six of one vs. half dozen of another. Ergo, preferred method.

 

Same here on using STR vs STR for grabs, but there IS a difference between the methods. The "roll and count BOD" way makes overwhelming STR even more overwhelming. Also, it's more granular: using a STR based 3d6 roll there is no distinction between 18 STR and 20 STR, but there's a significant difference if rolling damage dice and counting BOD.

 

I think my preference for the 3d6 roll is from a desire to unify mechanics as much as possible. On that note...

 

You know, this conversation brings me back to my long standing desire to unify the 'success roll' mechanics in Hero. Skills and attacks are computed differently and, as is thread demonstrates, STR v STR contests are handled in a a third fashion. Personally, I've kind of always thought that all this should be modelled off the to hit mechanics. You'd use skill level in place of OCV and a difficulty number in place of DCV. Stats would contribute on a 1:5 or 1:3 basis (I'd personally go 1:3 but I could see that making super stats too powerful). You'd also need to change the way familiarities and general skills work.

 

Eh, just an idle tangent. Nothing to see here. Move along.

 

 

A comment and then I say we drop it or start a new thread: I don't think changing the way familiarities and general Skills work is necessarily a bad thing.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Generally familiar with palindromedaries

[Vondy]

 

I think my preference for the 3d6 roll is from a desire to unify mechanics as much as possible. On that note...

 

 

 

For me its a desire for consistency, as well as speed and simplicity.

 

It also, subjectively speaking, feels more apropos for heroic games.

[mhd]

That's only relevant in super-heroic campaigns.

Knockback itself, sure, but I'd say that most justifications for resisting knockback also would apply to resisting trips, i.e. increased mass, limbs, density.

 

Of course, the obvious answer to granny going Bruce Lee on the super-sized Nazi mech-walker not to roll any dice to begin with. Just say "no." Sheesh.

If it's just this extreme corner case, sure. But generally you'll find lots of size and weight differences, especially in fantasy heroic campaigns (more so than super-heroics, I'd argue).

So some mitigating factor besides combat defense or Breakfall aptness would be nice to have. And I think there is a reference to using some size-based limit for both Throws and Trips somewhere in the books, although I think that's a hard cap, not some gradual impediment.

 

You know, this conversation brings me back to my long standing desire to unify the 'success roll' mechanics in Hero. Skills and attacks are computed differently and, as is thread demonstrates, STR v STR contests are handled in a a third fashion. Personally, I've kind of always thought that all this should be modelled off the to hit mechanics. You'd use skill level in place of OCV and a difficulty number in place of DCV. Stats would contribute on a 1:5 or 1:3 basis (I'd personally go 1:3 but I could see that making super stats too powerful). You'd also need to change the way familiarities and general skills work.

So, in other words, Fuzion?

 

I'm currently using a 1:3 characteristic bonus plus expanded skill ranges (1-10), with a universal roll-high mechanic. Works pretty well. We expanded the use of familiarities for some regular skills (e.g. Survival), but combat still is the only section of the rules where you distribute skill levels. Which is fine, I like this better than the separate attack/parry skill system suggested in one of the APGs or Fuzions default attack/defense roll using the same skill for both.

[Netzilla]

So, in other words, Fuzion?

 

I'm currently using a 1:3 characteristic bonus plus expanded skill ranges (1-10), with a universal roll-high mechanic. Works pretty well. We expanded the use of familiarities for some regular skills (e.g. Survival), but combat still is the only section of the rules where you distribute skill levels. Which is fine, I like this better than the separate attack/parry skill system suggested in one of the APGs or Fuzions default attack/defense roll using the same skill for both.

 

Not really Fuzion, no.  For one, I'd never dare that game on these forums, myself.    For another, Fuzion uses a universal roll-high system with Stats and Skills working on roughly the same scale (since both add to a success roll equally) but bought from differently scaled point pools (a little clunky in that regard). 

 

I know you weren't being entirely serious but considering this boards history with discussions of Fuzion, I felt it best it best to distance myself from it before the searing heat of the boards' hatred comes your way.

[mhd]

Not really Fuzion, no.  For one, I'd never dare that game on these forums, myself.    For another, Fuzion uses a universal roll-high system with Stats and Skills working on roughly the same scale (since both add to a success roll equally) but bought from differently scaled point pools (a little clunky in that regard).

 

I was mostly talking about the attempts of an universal mechanism, which is something that Fuzion certainly did, and where you'd come pretty close with some of the APG rules.

Balancing stats and skills is a difficult topic, and I would say that HERO itself has a bit of a glass-house problem (with a skill system that's awfully close to binary).

 

Lately my heresy goes beyond just mentioning Fuzion, with impure thoughts about non-linear costs for stats/skills and degree-of-success mechanics