Why have Dual attack MP/EC?

[Dr. Arcane]

I recently started going through old villain books and noticed that several villains (Dr Destroyer & others) have two attack Multipowers...

 

I was wondering why?

 

In HERO you can't make more than one attack per action (rapid fire excepted), so the only use is to be able to add the 2nd attack into the first. You can use multiple powers together in one attack, as long as they are all accessable at the same time. 

This would indicate that Dr D, (6e) would be able to fire a single attack for 46d6 damage by combining his Primary and Secondary attack into one "Attack". OUCH! That'll leave a mark.

 

Am I missing something? Is it possible to use the Primary on 1 target and the Secondary on another? Is there another logical reason to have multiple attack MPs?

 

[steriaca]

Am I missing something? Is it possible to use the Primary on 1 target and the Secondary on another? Is there another logical reason to have multiple attack MPs?

Yes you are ... on the butten. Dr. Destroyer can shoot one attack at one victim and another at another victim.

 

Another reason for the double multipower is that one multipower has one special effect, and another special effect on another multipower.

[Hyper-Man]

Look up the rules for Combined Attack 6e2 page 74 or CC page 151 (or if using 5er see Multiple-Power Attacks page 358).

 

Having 2 attacks built in separate Frameworks means that they can be combined into one Attack Action.  The damage of each attack is still counted separately vs. the target's defenses.

 

HM

[Dr. Arcane]

Yes you are ... on the butten. Dr. Destroyer can shoot one attack at one victim and another at another victim.

 

Another reason for the double multipower is that one multipower has one special effect, and another special effect on another multipower.

Actually for Dr. D the special effects are pretty much the same "Weapon Array" (which isn't much of a special effect in my book, I would certainly never accept it for an EC, although I'm more lenient w/MP)...

For The Warlord (5e at least), they are Identical (as are the MPs).

 

As for shooting two DIFFERENT targets, how does one do this? Does it REQUIRE using the Rapid Attack action or is there something I'm missing? Please give a page # (preferably 5e) if you can....

[Hyper-Man]

Attacking 2 separate targets at range would require the use of Rapid Fire* in 5e or its renamed 6e equivalent Multiple Attack**.

 

*5e/5er had equivalent maneuvers for HTH (Sweep) and Ranged (Rapid Fire). 

**6e/CC simplifies these into a single maneuver (Multiple Attack).

 

The 5 point Rapid Attack Skill converts these maneuvers from Full Phase actions to Half Phase ones.

 

HM

[Dr. Arcane]

Attacking 2 separate targets at range would require the use of Rapid Fire* in 5e or its renamed 6e equivalent Multiple Attack**.

 

*5e/5er had equivalent maneuvers for HTH (Sweep) and Ranged (Rapid Fire). 

**6e/CC simplifies these into a single maneuver (Multiple Attack).

 

The 5 point Rapid Attack Skill converts these maneuvers from Full Phase actions to Half Phase ones.

 

HM

  Thank you, had I read the darn maneuver in detail I could have answered my own question... And also my thanks to the person that pointed out that when combining multiple powers in a single attack Defenses are applied seperately vs. each power, makes it SLIGHTLY less rude... Though most of my players will probably use it as an attempt to get around campaign DC limits (not that I have hard limits).  Ah well, let them "accidentally" kill a few people and have to deal with the consequences I guess.

[Scott Baker]

  Thank you, had I read the darn maneuver in detail I could have answered my own question... And also my thanks to the person that pointed out that when combining multiple powers in a single attack Defenses are applied seperately vs. each power, makes it SLIGHTLY less rude... Though most of my players will probably use it as an attempt to get around campaign DC limits (not that I have hard limits).  Ah well, let them "accidentally" kill a few people and have to deal with the consequences I guess.

Since the attacks don't add, they really aren't getting around the DC limits. If the attacks in your game normally use END or charges, this option can burn through them rather quickly, perhaps leaving them to face an opponent completely exhausted. If they buy all of their attacks to 0 END, etc., it can be more of an issue.

[Dr. Arcane]

Since the attacks don't add, they really aren't getting around the DC limits. If the attacks in your game normally use END or charges, this option can burn through them rather quickly, perhaps leaving them to face an opponent completely exhausted. If they buy all of their attacks to 0 END, etc., it can be more of an issue.

OF COURSE my players buy all thier attacks (and Defenses) at 0 END. As well as Make sure they are at the campaign limit for Dex, SPD, OCV, DCV, Damage Class, etc, etc, etc. No one wants to be the "Average" everyone has to be "Ubermenchen Ultra-@$$-Kicker Man" with all thier abilities maxed. One of the reasons I stopped running supers games for so long.

 

  In my new campaign all PCs will have the Normal Cha Maxima DIsad. That should help keep Stat inflation down at least (although I expect to see a LOT of attempts to buy Stat as powers so that they are affected by NCM that I will need to step on). I suppose I could try a "Rule of X" approach. SPD+OCV+DC in Attack may not exceed.... 

[massey]

OF COURSE my players buy all thier attacks (and Defenses) at 0 END. As well as Make sure they are at the campaign limit for Dex, SPD, OCV, DCV, Damage Class, etc, etc, etc. No one wants to be the "Average" everyone has to be "Ubermenchen Ultra-@$$-Kicker Man" with all thier abilities maxed. One of the reasons I stopped running supers games for so long.

 

  In my new campaign all PCs will have the Normal Cha Maxima DIsad. That should help keep Stat inflation down at least (although I expect to see a LOT of attempts to buy Stat as powers so that they are affected by NCM that I will need to step on). I suppose I could try a "Rule of X" approach. SPD+OCV+DC in Attack may not exceed.... 

 

I think you're going about that the absolute wrong way.  None of our players ever buy 0 End on their attacks.  It's fairly expensive, and Endurance is cheap.  If your players have the points to buy the maximum in Dex, CVs Spd, Damage, Defense, etc, then your campaign limits are too low.  They shouldn't be able to afford the max in everything.  Enforcing NCM is just going to lower the things that they can spend points on, which will make the problem worse. Now they'll all be at the same maximums even faster, and the rest of their points they're going to put into different attack powers and specialty defenses.  Everybody's gonna have a Flash attack, and Flash Defense, and then a Drain, and Power Defense, etc.

 

Raise your campaign limits.  If it was 10D6 damage before, make it 12D6.  If it was 12D6, make it 14D6.  If your max Spd was 6, make it 7 or 8.  As your characters gain XP, you need to increase the campaign limits because they're growing in power.

[Tholomyes]

I actually disagree on the "If your players have the points to buy the maximum in [everything] then your campaign limits are too low". The actual point costs of all the CV, SPD, Damage, Defenses, ect can be large, but for the most part I'd say if your maximums can't be reached with points, then your maximums are too high. I don't mean this to say that players should have all stats at maximum, but rather that campaign maximums shouldn't be so far beyond campaign averages that reaching the maxima in all stats is impossible. 

 

How I would generally handle this would be to have a mix of a rule of X and a campaign averages/ranges system. Usually I have the following averages and ranges:

 

DC: Average 12 (+/- 3)

Defenses: Average 30 (+/- 10 PD/ED each; +/- 15 total)

CVs: Average 9 (+/- 3)

SPD: Average 5 (+/- 1) // Speedsters can have 7 SPD, but otherwise SPD 7 is outside normal ranges.

 

and for Rule of X, I do 53 >= 2*SPD + (OCV+DCV+CSL) + DC + (ED+PD)/5

 

The way the math works out is that when you plug the campaign averages, you wind up at 1 under the rule of X number. That's for two reasons: One of which is the psychological benefit of feeling above average, at least on something. The second benefit is that even if multiple players decide that they want to just buy their abilities to campaign average, there's a greater possibility of differentiation.

 

I would NOT do anything with NCM stats. It's too easy to get around if you want to game it, but it makes some legitimate concepts less viable. Also it doesn't really have any impact on many of the unbalancing aspects of HERO. If everyone is building their characters with Reduced Endurance, then you'll see far more reasonably done builds if you have Reduced endurance count towards their DC for limits and averages, than if you do NCM stats. Your problem, as you're describing it, is that a.) they've all bought off one of the balancing factors for powers: the endurance cost, and b.)they have stat inflation, because they don't really have any reason to stay below the maximum limits for those stats. NCM is a blunt instrument to solve the latter, but it's not even remotely the best tool for the job, and it really does nothing to solve the former.