Exceeding Characteristic & Skill Roll Maximas

[bigdamnhero]

Here's one that I'd never really thought about before. The specific context for me is a heroic fantasy game, but the question applies to all genres. (Tho I don't think NCM gets a lot of use in supers.)

 

If you're running a game that uses Normal Characteristic Maxima, and a character has a Power that allows them to exceed that Maxima, do you charge them double for it? For example, if a 15 STR Character has a spell that gives them 3d6 Aid STR, an average roll of 11 would put them up to 26 STR. Do they have to pay x2 for everything above 20, either by increasing the AP cost of the spell, or by counting 1-for-2 once you exceed 20 (So that 11 would only get them to 23.) Does it make a difference in your mind if the power is Limited, like "Only during a full moon" or whatever? What it's an item or some kind of artifact? Say the party walks into a Blessed area that gives everyone +10 STR; does Bob The Barbarian only get +5 because he's already at 20 to start with?

 

Same question if you use Skill Roll Maxima? Say a Character has Stealth 14- normally, but wants to buy a Talent that gives him +4 Stealth in the woods. Should it costs twice as much because that would put him over the maxima?

 

Since NCM/NSM are optional GM rules anyway, I know the RAW answer is "depends on the campaign." I'm just curious how other handle it or what y'all think.

[eepjr24]

6e1, pg 50

 

Characteristic Maxima rules typically do not apply to equipment defined with Characteristics (such as Automata, Bases, Computers, and Vehicles; see Chapter Seven of 6E2. Typically they also do not apply to Characteristics obtained through Powers, Talents, or the like. This would include, for example, the Characteristics Power, Adjustment Powers, Growth, and Lightning Reflexes. However, the GM may change this if he sees fit. Additionally, Adjustment Powers aren’t affected by the cost-doubling imposed by Characteristic Maxima — they add or

remove points in a Characteristic or Power at the standard rate, even if the character has paid extra points to buy that Characteristic or Power above the defined Maxima threshold.

 

I would probably go with exactly that, as long as it was not something that had very frequent impact. Items that raise stats above some cap (probably 30ish) would end up paying double, but it seldom matters since the items in question would be GM created.

 

Edit:

To the skill question. 6e Skill, pg 7

 

Skill Levels

Since they would provide an inexpensive work-around for Normal Skill Maxima, characters in a campaign that uses Normal Skill Maxima may not buy Skill Levels unless the GM specifically permits them (which he rarely should). The exception is equipment that provides Skill Levels, such as a set of finely crafted lockpicking tools (+2 to Lockpicking rolls with the Focus Limitation).

 

- E

[Tasha]

Here's one that I'd never really thought about before. The specific context for me is a heroic fantasy game, but the question applies to all genres. (Tho I don't think NCM gets a lot of use in supers.)

 

If you're running a game that uses Normal Characteristic Maxima, and a character has a Power that allows them to exceed that Maxima, do you charge them double for it? For example, if a 15 STR Character has a spell that gives them 3d6 Aid STR, an average roll of 11 would put them up to 26 STR. Do they have to pay x2 for everything above 20, either by increasing the AP cost of the spell, or by counting 1-for-2 once you exceed 20 (So that 11 would only get them to 23.) Does it make a difference in your mind if the power is Limited, like "Only during a full moon" or whatever? What it's an item or some kind of artifact? Say the party walks into a Blessed area that gives everyone +10 STR; does Bob The Barbarian only get +5 because he's already at 20 to start with?

 

Same question if you use Skill Roll Maxima? Say a Character has Stealth 14- normally, but wants to buy a Talent that gives him +4 Stealth in the woods. Should it costs twice as much because that would put him over the maxima?

 

Since NCM/NSM are optional GM rules anyway, I know the RAW answer is "depends on the campaign." I'm just curious how other handle it or what y'all think.

 

Actually the rule has always been that powers that increase stats don't pay the NCM Multiplier. Probably because of Adjustment powers and making it easier on people. That includes Characteristics that are purchased as a power. I am sure that some nice person who isn't me will find the passages in 6e1 and CC/FHC

[ghost-angel]

The complete books barely address the concept at all, giving a scant "some campaigns apply a maximum" paragraph before moving on (in both cases) to Character Basics.

 

6E1, p50 addresses it directly and states that normally Characteristics gained through Powers and Adjustment Powers are not affected by the doubling cost rule.

 

Personally, if the situation in a campaign with establish maximums has campaign-ways built in that could exceed them, it comes down to how Large the campaign wants to go with such things. A Sword & Sorcery game where even the best of magics is still pretty limited, I would say that Adjustment Powers would also incur the Doubles Beyond Maximum cost. In a more cinematic, heroic, and grand campaign, I would not have Powers incur the doubling cost.

 

Not doing so also makes the on-the-fly math easier, so there's that.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I do not make them pay double cp for the purposee of Aid and Drains. Only for permanent straight adds to the characteristic itself.

 

I do not apply a skill roll maximum in my games because I support rules for critical success (roll half or less) so the higher the skill can rise above 18, the greater chance of a critical success.

[Tasha]

Here from Fantasy Hero Complete

FHC pg 64 (also in CC pg 54) under the Characteristics Power "Unless noted otherwise, a Characteristic purchased as a Power adds to and works with a character’s standard Characteristics, and confers the standard benefits and abilities of that Characteristic. In campaigns using Characteristic Maxima, those rules do not apply to Characteristics purchased as Powers."

[ghost-angel]

Must have missed that, thanks for finding the passage.

[Tasha]

Must have missed that, thanks for finding the passage.

NP. I knew that it had to be in the rules somewhere. It was too important to not be in there.

[bigdamnhero]

Thanks all. I thought there was a rule relating to Characteristic Maxima, but couldn't find it. Sneaky of them to hide it in...the section on Characterisic Maxima. It makes sense to me that Adjustment Powers shouldn't have to pay double, especially if it's being used on a different character. But allowing Powers & Talents to directly increase a character's Chars above Max just seems like an invitation to Muchkinland, i.e. - I don't want to pay double for 25 STR, so I'll buy the last 5 as a Power or Talent that's in effect 90% of the time and I'm good. It certainly makes Lightning Reflexes an even bigger bargain.

 

OTOH, saying that you can't buy Skill Levels in a campaign with Skill Maxima makes no sense to me. The previous paragraph says that buying +1 for a Skill costs double if it puts you above the Maxima, but then it says you can't buy separate Skill Levels? Not sure I see the rationale behind that; I would say same rule applies, ie anything that puts you over the Max it costs double.

 

I normally use a Skill Maxima of 15- in Heroic games, so it's really only to limit extreme cases. The specific example that brought all this to mind: a Ranger character has a base Stealth roll of 13-, and wants to buy the "Woodland Commando" Talent (FH6 p98), which gives a +4 Stealth only in woods. I don't have a problem per se with the character having a 17- Stealth in the woods; it's strictly a question of whether he should have to pay double for that last +2 or not.

[ghost-angel]

Consider if you have Conversation at 12-, Oratory at 15-, and Charm at 13- in a campaign with a Skill Maxima of 15-; You buy a Skill Level for three "Closely related skills" or a "PRE Based Skill Level"; for the Conversation and Charm skills, it doesn't get you to the max, so it's normal cost. For Oratory though, you immediately exceed the Maxima.

 

So you either have "Costs two SKill Levels to get a +1 above the Maxima" which is quite expensive at the "All PRE Based Skills" Level (8pts IIRC, which is double what an actual +1 would cost for that skill to exceed the maximum); Or just disallow it.

 

I'd probably be inclined to say the first rule is more appropriate, but the second one is much cleaner/definitive an explanation.... or decision. I can see why the Rules went that way...