Magic System - comments welcome

[Steve]

I'm wondering if some races with a greater affinity for magic (elves for example) might have increased resistance to LTE loss.

 

It wouldn't be a form of Life Support vs Heat. I'm thinking of an ability like a Naked Advantage of x1/2 END cost that is only used to determine LTE loss. They would still spend the normal amounts of endurance on the spell, but they would burn through LTE more slowly. It would be a racial ability, so you'd have to take the package instead of just picking that one ability.

[Michael Hopcroft]

This may sound like a basic question, but what is Mana's ultimate source? Is it like the SW Force in that life generates it, and that the areas with little or no mana are that way because they are so harsh that virtually nothing can live there?

 

If that is the case, and it is well enough known that it is, there are a lot of places where mages would not be welcome. In fact, they may be unwelcome pretty much everywhere because spellcasting, even for benevolent reason, has negative effects on many living things in the area the energy is drawn from. Farmers in particular would hate mages because their livelihood depends on having a healthy crop -- and large-scale magic interferes with that.

[Steve]

If mana is created from life, then it's much like Dark Sun's setup.

[eepjr24]

I'm wondering if some races with a greater affinity for magic (elves for example) might have increased resistance to LTE loss.

 

It wouldn't be a form of Life Support vs Heat. I'm thinking of an ability like a Naked Advantage of x1/2 END cost that is only used to determine LTE loss. They would still spend the normal amounts of endurance on the spell, but they would burn through LTE more slowly. It would be a racial ability, so you'd have to take the package instead of just picking that one ability.

No such current race exists. Scions of gods and mortals might have something like this.

[eepjr24]

This may sound like a basic question, but what is Mana's ultimate source? Is it like the SW Force in that life generates it, and that the areas with little or no mana are that way because they are so harsh that virtually nothing can live there?

 

If that is the case, and it is well enough known that it is, there are a lot of places where mages would not be welcome. In fact, they may be unwelcome pretty much everywhere because spellcasting, even for benevolent reason, has negative effects on many living things in the area the energy is drawn from. Farmers in particular would hate mages because their livelihood depends on having a healthy crop -- and large-scale magic interferes with that.

Life is not the source of Mana. In an indirect way, Mana is the source of life. It provides energy at a sub-atomic level, if you want to think of it that way. As to the source of mana, it is a type of energy that simply exists. It is not destroyed, but it can be depleted in an area, so farmers might worry if there was a mage war, but wars are almost always bad for farming. 

 

- E

[Steve]

No such current race exists. Scions of gods and mortals might have something like this.

Hmm... since REC determines LTE burn rate, could mages buy an ability like a high REC that only determined LTE burn rate? I seem to recall you mentioning something like that being allowed earlier in the thread. Since it only determined the LTE loss rate, it would probably be REC bought with at least a -1 Limitation.

[eepjr24]

Hmm... since REC determines LTE burn rate, could mages buy an ability like a high REC that only determined LTE burn rate? I seem to recall you mentioning something like that being allowed earlier in the thread. Since it only determined the LTE loss rate, it would probably be REC bought with at least a -1 Limitation.

Yes, I would allow that. Probably not for a starting mage, but as one gained experience and trained for it, certainly.

[Hugh Neilson]

I would not see it as suppressing the mana but making channeling more difficult. But yes, I like the idea. Using Change Environment to impose limitations on a particular school or type of magic, either as a direct attack (a potion that you target the caster with) or passively (a token or item that you carry with an AoE). This could provide a variety of effects, adding skill rolls, extending casting times, increasing endurance cost, perhaps even increasing LTE.

My thinking is that you may benefit from being proactive and setting costs for the various CE effects you envision, rather than waiting for a player to "self-define" this.

 

 

I'm wondering if some races with a greater affinity for magic (elves for example) might have increased resistance to LTE loss.

 

It wouldn't be a form of Life Support vs Heat. I'm thinking of an ability like a Naked Advantage of x1/2 END cost that is only used to determine LTE loss. They would still spend the normal amounts of endurance on the spell, but they would burn through LTE more slowly. It would be a racial ability, so you'd have to take the package instead of just picking that one ability.

I like that, especially the fact that the naked advantage can take you to only a limited spell power - surpass that, and you burn out as fast as any mortal. Whether bought as a racial power, or some other special ability, a wizard perhaps altering his own biology to be a better channel for magical energy.

 

Life is not the source of Mana. In an indirect way, Mana is the source of life.

Poe Tae Toe Poe Tah Toe

 

It provides energy at a sub-atomic level, if you want to think of it that way. As to the source of mana, it is a type of energy that simply exists. It is not destroyed, but it can be depleted in an area, so farmers might worry if there was a mage war, but wars are almost always bad for farming.

Or they might not be scholars of magic, but operate on rumour, speculation and fear. Last I looked, the average guy wasn't too well versed in how nuclear power works, or what, exactly, are the benefits of "organic food" versus normal food (inorganic food - ie rocks - being pretty useless).

 

The odd aspect of this system will be all the high END, high REC spellcasters who can also run for miles, quickly recover from a KO, etc. A decision on whether END and REC "only for magic" are OK and, if so, what the limitation would be is probably a good inclusion. NOTE: There's not a ton of difference between END and REC "only for magic" and buying an END Reserve for Magic which also inflicts some personal LTE loss, is there?

[Hugh Neilson]

Yes, I would allow that. Probably not for a starting mage, but as one gained experience and trained for it, certainly.

I'm unclear whether "starting mage" encompasses all PCs at creation, or whether you're just looking for a character whose background includes considerable magical training and, possibly, experience. My starting character could be a 75 yo Wizard, trained in the Mystic Arts since he was in diapers.

[eepjr24]

I'm unclear whether "starting mage" encompasses all PCs at creation, or whether you're just looking for a character whose background includes considerable magical training and, possibly, experience. My starting character could be a 75 yo Wizard, trained in the Mystic Arts since he was in diapers.

I don't know if you intend to appear argumentative all the time or not, but you certainly come across that way. Not a big deal for me, since you are not a player in my campaigns. I mean that it is not an ability that you will have access to at initial character creation.

[eepjr24]

The odd aspect of this system will be all the high END, high REC spellcasters who can also run for miles, quickly recover from a KO, etc. A decision on whether END and REC "only for magic" are OK and, if so, what the limitation would be is probably a good inclusion. NOTE: There's not a ton of difference between END and REC "only for magic" and buying an END Reserve for Magic which also inflicts some personal LTE loss, is there?

This fits perfectly with the theme in my mind, since the end/recovery combination is a decent marker of ability to tolerate and bounce back from exertion well and channeling magic is a form of exertion that makes your body work. I have already stated that END and REC for magic purposes only are an option (even for players at character creation). I am thinking -1 is probably appropriate. And if there is not much difference to you between this and END Reserves, then my way should not cause any trouble. I prefer it my way for several reasons:

 

1. NCM increasing costs after a certain point.

2. END Reserves and their recovery do not affect LTE.

3. The interaction of running out of END and using Stun.

4. The corollary interaction of physical exertion making casting more difficult.

5. Pushing.

6. End Reserves are more expensive, especially after applying the limitation.

 

- E

[Steve]

My understanding is that abilities bought with Limitations are not subject to NCM multipliers per RAW, so a character could buy an 8 REC and then add on another 8 only for magic (with an assumed -1 Limitation) and not pay double on that extra 8 before reducing the cost with the Limitation. The same would go for additional END only for magic.

 

Since you were fine with Aid and Healing for LTE, would a slow form of LTE Regeneration be acceptable? A character with such an ability may burn through their END like anyone else but then recover LTE more quickly than others. Regeneration may be used on characteristics other than BODY, so an ability recovering LTE would seem possible in this setting. If it didn't recover faster than 1 LTE per 5 Minutes or maybe 20 Minutes, it shouldn't be abusive.

 

Such an ability could represent a racial or maybe cultural-induced (I'm thinking Spartans) hardiness, so fighters and non-spellcasters could benefit from it as well.

[eepjr24]

My understanding is that abilities bought with Limitations are not subject to NCM multipliers per RAW, so a character could buy an 8 REC and then add on another 8 only for magic (with an assumed -1 Limitation) and not pay double on that extra 8 before reducing the cost with the Limitation. The same would go for additional END only for magic.

Campaign guidelines will prevent that in this case. 

 

I doubt I will allow regeneration. I think I have provided plenty of methods to recover LTE for now. I can look at it later if there is not enough to go around.

 

- E

[Hugh Neilson]

I don't know if you intend to appear argumentative all the time or not, but you certainly come across that way. Not a big deal for me, since you are not a player in my campaigns. I mean that it is not an ability that you will have access to at initial character creation.

Tone doesn't transmit well online (I assumed "comments welcome" meant you were open to comments, for example, but you sometimes seem more inclined to defend your starting point than to consider options - I suspect that's when we hit areas you've already considered and decided, though). My question was a real one. In D&D and many other games, PC's typically start young and inexperienced, still learning their abilities. That does not have to be the case in Hero - the young neophyte and grizzled veteran can both be starting PC's - which allows for "an experienced wizard" as a starting PC. That doesn't mean every experienced wizard has to have that ability, though, so restricting it to experienced characters, or even to characters who find the means in play, could make perfect sense.

 

 

This fits perfectly with the theme in my mind, since the end/recovery combination is a decent marker of ability to tolerate and bounce back from exertion well and channeling magic is a form of exertion that makes your body work.

It's more jarring from the stereotype of the aged/not that physically fit wizard than problematic. It just changes the archetype around.

 

I have already stated that END and REC for magic purposes only are an option (even for players at character creation). I am thinking -1 is probably appropriate. And if there is not much difference to you between this and END Reserves, then my way should not cause any trouble.

IMO, it's simply a variant END reserve. Since it will add to existing END and REC, it has a pre-existing advantage over the RAW reserve, but also the drawback of dropping to zero if the character is KO'd. It will also mesh better with LTE, which is clearly important to this system. The usual cost of a Reserve is 4 END per CP (your limited END will cost much less, 10 END per CP, but it will also impact LTE as well as being eliminated on KO), and 2 CP for 3 REC (2 CP will buy 4 limited REC, which will work on timing of the character's own recoveries for good or ill, and also impact the rate of LTE usage, presumably).

 

I prefer it my way for several reasons:

 

1. NCM increasing costs after a certain point.

As Steve notes, NCM does not normally apply to limited stats, but NCM is not a standard rule anyway, so applying NCM to limited stats is just part of the campaign-specific rule. Definitely easier to do with limited stats than a reserve.

 

2. END Reserves and their recovery do not affect LTE.

Another hassle avoided, really - you could apply a mandatory limitation to the END, and an advantage for the REC to reduce LTE usage, but this is simpler.

 

3. The interaction of running out of END and using Stun.

How will that impact LTE? It does give the character an option if he's low on END, though.

 

4. The corollary interaction of physical exertion making casting more difficult.

Flavour is always important.

 

5. Pushing.

You can Push a power drawing on a reserve.

 

6. End Reserves are more expensive, especially after applying the limitation.

The END reserve is more costly than normal END mainly because it doesn't disappear on KO. The REC is a bit cheaper, but not additive. The limited END approach means abilities can't keep drawing on the reserve when the wizard is KOd, which is probably a plus given the "maintaining magic long-term is difficult" aspect of the system.

 

Gut feel, you may be a bit generous, but then the spellcaster is paying full END for everything, and the LTE aspect has an impact. It seems like a reasonable starting point to see how it plays out, anyway. Whatever value you pick will only really be tested in play, and there are too many flavour aspects that would require an END reserve be modified for to be any more confident in that revised pricing. It would be a bigger pain to modify the reserve than use limited stats.

[Steve]

Familiars could also be built as sources of END, REC or both. If they are built with +X points of END/REC Usable By Others, it gives an excellent reason to have a familiar: they provide an aid in spellcasting. They could also provide LTE Healing or even just END Healing as benefits of having them.

[eepjr24]

I posted the Divine system that compliments this one here: http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/93884-divine-magic-system/

 

- E

[Steve]

I had a new thought on this. Perhaps as a spell side effect, failing your magic skill roll when casting causes the END loss to automatically become LTE instead.

[eepjr24]

I had a new thought on this. Perhaps as a spell side effect, failing your magic skill roll when casting causes the END loss to automatically become LTE instead.

I don't have anyone who is choosing to use RSR yet, but if they did I would certainly allow side effects to do that. I am considering Jam, Burnout or Abaltive style rolls as well, side effects would be an option with them.

 

- E