Ditto's Transform

[whitekeys]

The way this power is built is partially dependent on how we understand the power to work in the video game, or the anime, but I wanted to get some feedback.

 

So, as you probably know, Ditto has the ability to Transform into other kinds of pokemon. Here are some of my questions and ideas:

 

1. I'm doing multiform. I think that's the best, but other votes for Transform?

 

2. Would you pay the 5 CP to double the number of Forms up to approximately the current number of Pokemon in the game (x512, 45 Points), or would you pay a flat rate for a "floating" form, or would you pay for some kind of Analyze/Detect upon which the Transform depended?

 

3. To keep the price reasonable and game balance, I restricted the CPs in the most expensive form to the Total Points in the Ditto itself, so that it's not actually able to become more powerful than it is already. It just copies the abilities and stats of the opponent, assuming they're roughly equivalent. Otherwise, you'd have to pay the upfront cost of transforming into Mewtwo, Regigas, etc. With Limitations put on the Transform, the Ditto should never "fall behind", so to speak, because otherwise every Experience Point you received would have to be put into the Transform power to keep up.

 

Here's the current power: 

14 Transform: Multiform (75 Character Points in the most expensive form) (x512 Number Of Forms), Reversion (+0), Must Be Used At Full Power (-0) (59 Active Points); 4 Recoverable Charges (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; Healing at PokeCenter required for Recovery; -1 1/4), Costs Endurance (To Stay In Form; -1), Lockout (-1/2), Requires A Power Skill Roll (Analyze: Pokemon Skill roll; -1/2) 6

4. Limitation:

(a) Not sure if Must Be Used at Full Power is a legit Limitation, but it seems to make sense, since I envision it only fully transforming into another pokemon, and not doing half and half.

( 4 Charges was just a guess at the PP of the ability (or representing Ditto's fatigue before needing rest at the PokeCenter).

© Costs endurance to Stay In Form - cost saver, not necessary

(d) Lockout - to prevent it from using any other attack it might have learned as Ditto.

 

5. Requires a roll... I thought, to keep it balanced when coming up against more powerful pokemon, that Ditto would have to roll some kind of Analyze Skill Roll first, to examine the pokemon, and possibly take more time to figure out its abilities, etc. But, I also thought it should require an Activation Roll for the power itself, back before I had reduced the CP in the most expensive form to 75, rather than 500. Another way of putting it might be like this:

30 Transform: Multiform (500 Character Points in the most expensive form) (x512 Number Of Forms), Reversion (+0), Must Be Used At Full Power (-0) (145 Active Points); 4 Recoverable Charges (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; Healing at PokeCenter required for Recovery; -1 1/4), Requires A Power Skill Roll (Skill roll, -1 per 5 Active Point difference in forms modifier; -1), Costs Endurance (To Stay In Form; -1), Lockout (-1/2) 14

 

So, if attempting to change Forms into a 500-point Pokemon, that would be 100 Active points. Its current form (the Ditto itself) is built on 75 total points, so 15 Active Points. The difference is 85 Active Points, divided by 5 is 17. The Power Skill Roll would take a -17 penalty. In order to offset this penalty by buying up the Power Skill with +17 would be 34 points, although, by the time you got 34 Exp, the difference between the Active Point totals would be less, meaning less of a penalty. 

[Tasha]

IMHO I would do it with a bit of Shape Shift with a BIG Variable Power pool. Remember that sometimes the "obvious" build that doesn't quite work isn't the right one.

I would require the player to spec out the powers in the pool that vary between "forms".

[Cantriped]

Neither "Must Be Used At Full Power" or "Lockout" are appropriate or legal for multiform, nor do you really need to save points, because transforming into its enemy is usually all that Ditto can do in its natural form besides be a universal stud (in the games... which is creepy so lets not go there). Lockout especially isn't legal because the mechanics of Multiform already deny Ditto the benefits of any abilities it has in its True Form.

Considering that Ditto can only transform into the exact same pokemon it is currently battling, I wouldn't bother with doubling of forms. Instead I would define the "one form" it is allowed as "an exact duplicate of its enemy" and leave it at that, if you feel like this is more advantageous than being able to pick an alternate build, I suggest making it a custom +1/4 to +1/2 advantage. I would have Ditto spend most (if not all) of its points on Multiform, allowing it to break the restriction on multiforming into forms built on greater CP than itself. Also, I would keep the build as simple as possible, leaving out the required roll, and endurance cost. However limiting the ability by Charges sounds appropo to me 4-8 charges per day is more than sufficient to make one worth capturing, and won't reduce the cost of the power too much. If Ditto has any points left over, I would beef up its PD, ED, BODY, STUN, and REC into the stratosphere in its True Form (the special effect being its amorphous form).

[Christopher]

The biggest question you have to ask:

Wich of the Power Copying weakness does it or does it not share?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PowerCopying

 

With Hero you might have the limit of Active Points/Total points on top of that. i.e., can't copy a 14D6 attack from a Pokemon that only has 12d6 itself.

 

IMHO I would do it with a bit of Shape Shift with a BIG Variable Power pool. Remember that sometimes the "obvious" build that doesn't quite work isn't the right one.

I would require the player to spec out the powers in the pool that vary between "forms".

While generally a good idea, VPP based "power copy" builds do have issues with copying Multipowers as you can not nest Frameworks and VPP takes a lot longer or a lot more points to switch then Multipower.

But I did delve into an option for that a few months ago:
http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/93314-combining-frameworks-multipower-in-a-vpp

[Tasha]

I didn't think that Pokemon abilities were that complicated. Really just 4 powers and the critters being pretty similar otherwise.

[Christopher]

I didn't think that Pokemon abilities were that complicated. Really just 4 powers and the critters being pretty similar otherwise.

The 4 power limit is only due to UI Limitations on the original Gameboy devices/modern mobile consoles.

This is a P&P equivalent, no need to keep that UI specific Limit.

[Christopher]

The 4 power limit is only due to UI Limitations on the original Gameboy devices/modern mobile consoles.

This is a P&P equivalent, no need to keep that UI specific Limit.

Actually I just checked. Only 4 Powers? Not even close.

Pikachu has 18 moves. The user in the game has to select only 4 to use:

http://pokemondb.net/pokedex/pikachu#dex-moves

 

As I said: Classical input device related limitation. No need to copy that part in a P&P variant.

[Tech]

For Ditto, Christopher, there is no copy weakness. Any power the other opponent has will be copied, regardless of how powerful or weak it is.

 

Of course, no one mentions the rare Ditto card powers which are not "Transform"... 

 

For myself, I would have built it as Multiform with x512 forms. I find Multiform's cost rather inexpensive for what you get.

[Cantriped]

 

For myself, I would have built it as Multiform with x512 forms. I find Multiform's cost rather inexpensive for what you get.

Except that Ditto cannot choose from battle to battle to change into whichever of the 512 prebuilt pokemon character sheets that would have the greatest advantage against its opponent. It really only has access to one alternate form (at a time), which just happens to be exactly the same as whatever it is fighting.

[Tasha]

I also didn't realize that we were talking about the Pokemon as they appeared in the CCG. I am used to the various GameBoy versions of the creatures.

[Cantriped]

The original poster appears to be referencing many sources for ideas to create a "world fluff" friendly conversion of Pokémon into HERO system for a campaign. As such they aren't just referencing material from any one of the Video Games, but likely also the Card Game, and various Series/Movies.

[whitekeys]

Cantriped is correct in that I'm referencing many sources to create a HERO conversion of Pokemon.

 

But that being said, the idea that Ditto can only transform into the enemy it's battling is a too-restrictive version of Ditto's transform ability. It's known in the anime, and from other sources as well, that Ditto can transform into any form. It has the ability to transform from memory, though this process is "inaccurate". I read somewhere on Bulbapedia that Ditto transforms into a rock while sleeping for protection. After all, there may very well be a circumstance in a RPG campaign where a Ditto is battling more than one opponent. Which one to transform into?

 

That was the trouble with buying the number of forms, or some kind of "floating" multiform. Or maybe a Linked Shapeshift? And also the idea behind utilizing "requires a roll" in some circumstances, at least. Or basing the transform on some kind of other Roll, like Perception, or Analyze. 

[Tom Cowan]

Buying more forms is cheap, 5 points for 2x the number of forms so for 512 it is 45 points from one one of its 513 forms.  Less with some limits.

[whitekeys]

I am still interested in hearing more thoughts, but I wanted to add this: 

 

If there wasn't really a convenient / cheap way of making a Multiform with unlimited forms, what you would folks, as GMs, be willing to hand-wave to make it happen for your PCs?

[whitekeys]

Except that Ditto cannot choose from battle to battle to change into whichever of the 512 prebuilt pokemon character sheets that would have the greatest advantage against its opponent. It really only has access to one alternate form (at a time), which just happens to be exactly the same as whatever it is fighting.

 

While this is true, I thought I would add that, while the video game featured Ditto with only 1 move (Transform), I think the RPG milieu would certainly allow for Ditto to learn other things in its natural form, like possibly a melee attack, or some Power tricks arising from its amorphous body (like stretching or dodging) - things that would be of great out-of-combat and role-play value, too.

[Tasha]

If it can pick and choose what powers it uses. A Variable Power Pool with common abilities written up on a separate sheet would be the easiest way to go. though Most of the Builds here would have most GM's saying no because of the immense flexibility of such a character (ie why VPPs tend to be very regulated in most Hero Campaigns). It could choose the form/powers that match the weaknesses of whatever it faces. while that works as an NPC, it is problematic as a PC IMHO

 

Tasha

[Christopher]

I am still interested in hearing more thoughts, but I wanted to add this: 

 

If there wasn't really a convenient / cheap way of making a Multiform with unlimited forms, what you would folks, as GMs, be willing to hand-wave to make it happen for your PCs?

Basically you have the "Beast Boy Problem". Beast boy could be build on at least two ways:

1. A lot of Multiforms. Of wich each one might need to be written up manually. the natural animals are propably to weak to be usefull in a superfight anyway. While Hero generally does not have any absolutes, you can define an absolute. i.e. you could say that Ditto can take "the form of any Pokemon" with only x32 Number of Forms. You equate "X amount of Multiplier" with "every form".

 

2. Variable Power Pool or Multipower with stuff like Growth, Shrinking (Mice/Elephant), Flying (Birds), Swimming (Fish) and various attacks (HTH, KA's, "Spitting acid/poision into the eyes"). Changing the form is simple the action of "Changing Multipower/VPP selection".

In Beastboys case I do not see much need for a Shape Shift (the power), as he stays green in every form.

The one big advantage is that you can "mix and match" abilities. Beastboy could afaik "half shift", so he could actually mix the properties of two animals.

 

3. option is the "Adapter/Absorber" build:

Just have a VPP designed to "only what he can copy". There is a example VPP in the book.

But as I said above, those do have issues if the copied target uses a Multipower of any kind and with time to shift the slots.

 

4. is the Martial Arts way. HSMA contains a few example superheroic martial arts, inlcuding "Shiftercombat".

i.e., escape defined as Turning into a small snake. Grab defined as turning into a Constrictor snake.

 

I can not really see 4 working for your Ditto case. Just pointed it out for completion.

2 has the problem that it allows to "mix and match" powers across seperate pokemon.

1 could be the simplest way for a Pokemon conversion

3 has - as I said before - issues with changing of slots.

[whitekeys]

Basically you have the "Beast Boy Problem". Beast boy could be build on at least two ways:

1. A lot of Multiforms. Of wich each one might need to be written up manually. the natural animals are propably to weak to be usefull in a superfight anyway. While Hero generally does not have any absolutes, you can define an absolute. i.e. you could say that Ditto can take "the form of any Pokemon" with only x32 Number of Forms. You equate "X amount of Multiplier" with "every form".

 

2. Variable Power Pool or Multipower with stuff like Growth, Shrinking (Mice/Elephant), Flying (Birds), Swimming (Fish) and various attacks (HTH, KA's, "Spitting acid/poision into the eyes"). Changing the form is simple the action of "Changing Multipower/VPP selection".

In Beastboys case I do not see much need for a Shape Shift (the power), as he stays green in every form.

The one big advantage is that you can "mix and match" abilities. Beastboy could afaik "half shift", so he could actually mix the properties of two animals.

 

3. option is the "Adapter/Absorber" build:

Just have a VPP designed to "only what he can copy". There is a example VPP in the book.

But as I said above, those do have issues if the copied target uses a Multipower of any kind and with time to shift the slots.

 

4. is the Martial Arts way. HSMA contains a few example superheroic martial arts, inlcuding "Shiftercombat".

i.e., escape defined as Turning into a small snake. Grab defined as turning into a Constrictor snake.

 

I can not really see 4 working for your Ditto case. Just pointed it out for completion.

2 has the problem that it allows to "mix and match" powers across seperate pokemon.

1 could be the simplest way for a Pokemon conversion

3 has - as I said before - issues with changing of slots.

 

If it can pick and choose what powers it uses. A Variable Power Pool with common abilities written up on a separate sheet would be the easiest way to go. though Most of the Builds here would have most GM's saying no because of the immense flexibility of such a character (ie why VPPs tend to be very regulated in most Hero Campaigns). It could choose the form/powers that match the weaknesses of whatever it faces. while that works as an NPC, it is problematic as a PC IMHO

 

Tasha

 

YES!

 

the VPP pool is definitely the way to go. "Transforming" is a special effect! It doesn't even need to purchase a number of different attacks: since the baseline damaging move in my campaign is a straight Blast: Ditto can buy this for itself with variable special effects and "transform" as a fundamental special effect of the power, to cover all its bases. It could buy a naked advantage variable special effect for defining its own type and defenses, and since we're now separating the actual transform from the abilities, I think it would need to buy Shape Shift to cover the alteration of its physical body. I think this is more than a special effect. It can buy a series of Characteristics and STUN linked to Growth or Shrinking. It could then Link a number of other powers to its Shapeshift ability, like if it shape shifts into a pokemon with wings, it would have a linked Flight. 

 

I think the "mix and match" problem could be solved with a simple Limitation.

 

Brilliant! Thanks everyone

[whitekeys]

Shape Shift works so much better for what I had in mind: 

 

It costs END to shift and to stay in a shifted shape

It is open to any number of shapes for much cheaper

It has a built-in Imitation function

It gives option for various Limitations, like needing to perceive a shape in order to Imitate it, limiting the mix-and-match function, and keeping the Shape Shift Perceivable, etc.

 

So you guys opened up the possibility of linking the other powers I might need to the Shape Shift, with Transform as a special effect of the overarching power, and possibly putting some of them in a VPP, but I'll report back with whether that's even necessary.

[whitekeys]

11 Transform: Shape Shift (Sight and Hearing Groups, any shape), Imitation (33 Active Points); Requires A Roll (Skill roll; PER, Analyze, to imitate; -1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Requires a Roll (Power Skill, to improvise shape sifting; -1/2), Perceivable (Retains some semblance of Ditto's true form, such as facial features, provides PER bonus to perceive; -1/4), Must Be Used At Full Power (Cannot mix and match Shape Shifting abilities while imitating; -1/4)

3

 

So that's what I have so far for the Shape Shift.

 

But I see a slight problem here in that there are two main ways that this power is used: One is to only imitate things it see, whether that is another pokemon for battle, or a rock for sleeping (and Ditto MUST be able to see them in order to properly Imitate the shape, hence the Required PER Roll) and the other is regular shape shifting, which in the context of Ditto, I'm calling "improvised" shape shifting. I want Ditto to be able to Imitate very well, but be really clumsy when attempting to imitate from memory or improvise.

 

But since Imitation is an Adder, Ditto can still technically shape shift into whatever other shape he wants with no restriction. The Imitation adder allows him to copy very specific details about a particular shape, but otherwise he can adopt gross characteristics at any point. I thought about putting on a limitation Only to Imitate, but that leads me to the second main use of the power. I want Ditto to be able to transform from memory and to improvise certain features. So the broader use of Shape Shift is still effective, and the Only to Imitate Limitation is not appropriate.

 

At this point, PER Roll is still required to imitate from memory, both at first contact and to "perceive" one's own memory (which I would obviously apply a penalty to). But I wanted the improvised shifting to be unreliable. For example, a ditto that has never seen wings would not be able to shift into a wing shape by memory, but I could try and convey the idea of flight somehow. As another example "Ditto, transform into something scary to frighten these children..." Ditto could transform into some monstrous pokemon that it's seen in the past, but it could also transform into something completely unique and original. The "scary" might not come out. Maybe it gets it wrong and it's actually funny or adorable. Technically, by the power build, it's able to do all of this with no restriction, and so I thought a separate Requires a Roll limitation would be appropriate, to represent the unreliability of this improvisation.

 

Furthermore, I see its Imitation ability being used Only At Full Value (that is, if it wants to imitate, it must imitate everything it sees, whole hog), but in terms of improvisation, it should be able to different parts of its body into different things, as per normal Shape Shift.

 

So my question is... can I just put a limitation on an adder, or can I limit the whole power multiple times for different uses of the power, or is Variable Limitations appropriate here. Or something else? (keep in mind, we're still just talking about the basic physical form shape shifting, ..getting into powers and other abilities will come later).