Astral Travel

[JmOz]

Okay I have been working on the "Official" Way of doing Astral Travel in my game, I figured I would start with a "Novice Spell of Astral Travel" and work up from there, so please critique:

 

20 Clairsentience (sight)

+5 Hearing

+5 Mobile Perception Point

----

30 Base Points

-0 1 20 Minute Continuing Charge, recoverable

-1 1/2 0 DCV Concentration with Not aware of suroundings

-1/4 Perception point can be detected and attacked by appropriate Attack, Body and DEF =AP/5, Stun equal to AP

 

11 Points

[PhilFleischmann]

Looks good to me. You might want to add an additional limitation. "Perception Point's movement may be blocked by appropriate substance or energy." This would probably be a -0 lim, but it allows for privacy. There should be a way to shield an area from being viewed remotely.

[JmOz]

-1/4, stoped by Mental defense or Mystical Barriors (depending on if it is a Mystical or Mental version)?

[pinecone]

Looks good to me..I've always liked clairsense as "astral" better than using a Desolid duplicate........and its fairly inexpensive

[JmOz]

Okay, I think I am satisfied with Version 2.0 of the Novice version, the next version will be for most basic mystics (this is the 350 point characters)

 

Spell of Astral Travel

 

20 Clairsentience (sight)

+5 Hearing

+5 Mobile Perception Point

+5 x2 Speed of MPP

-------

+1/4 1 Rec Charge lasting 1 hour

+1/4 Megascale (1"=1km)

 

52 Active Points

 

-2 Common Astral Limitations

*****-1 1/2 Concentration (Total, 0 DCV)

*****-1/4 Astral Form may be perceived and attacked by appropriate attack forms

*****-1/4 Astral Form can be blocked by barriors of appropriate F/x

 

Total cost 17

 

This should cover enough area to be a city and the subburbs...

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by pinecone

Looks good to me..I've always liked clairsense as "astral" better than using a Desolid duplicate........and its fairly inexpensive

 

It's inexpensive only if all you are doing is using it to spy on people. If you want to manifest using Images, Mental Powers or Telekinesis, it's much cheeper to use Duplication. Also, A Duplicate has not range limit, if you had the time to get there, you could observe events on Mars.

[JmOz]

Duplication is out: I disagree with it on a fundamental level.

 

The reason why I disagree with Duplication is this: The purpose of the power is to make a second character, so that you can use 2 or more characters simultanius, most forms of astral travel have the body going cautinaunic (sp), thus only one character will be in effect, thus no Duplication.

 

However having said that:

 

I have also been toying with building it with Multiform, with a custom lim that says: Leave body behind

 

It is a design mentality (Same mentality makes me disagree with DS on Continous)

[zornwil]

Hey, JmOz (and sorry, I think I called you JimOz before, never really noticed there's nothing between the J and m until now), I don't know if it's useful, particularly as you said you don't like Duplication, but the USPD has "Astral Form" in it. Other than saying it uses Duplication, I don't think I should reprint the actual power of course. It's on page 164 if you have the book.

[JmOz]

I'm aware of it, don't have it, but have seen the play test. Using Duplication seems to me like using a screwdriver to hammer in a nail, it can work, and the nail looks almost like a screw, but it is just not right... However most ideas involving Duplication can have Multiform substitute for it (with a leave the body behind lim) instead. The reason for this is the idea that Dup creates multiple characters, a comatosed body is not a additional character, while Multiform gives you an additional form, but you can only use one at a time

 

I am also a big fan of the idea that in Hero there is always more ways than one to build the same ability, and it is a matter of taste and minute differences depending on how you build it.

 

Then again as most of you know, I disagree with SL on how to do things all the time...But he is the owner, I am the fan, so you can guess who gets published and who does not

[zornwil]

I agree there's many valid ways to skin the cat, certainly not suggesting that just because it's done this way in USPD means that's necessarily canonical (and most days Steve Long says much the same).

[McCoy]

Re: Astral Travel

 

Originally posted by JmOz

Okay I have been working on the "Official" Way of doing Astral Travel in my game, I figured I would start with a "Novice Spell of Astral Travel" and work up from there, so please critique:

 

20 Clairsentience (sight)

+5 Hearing

+5 Mobile Perception Point

----

30 Base Points

-0 1 20 Minute Continuing Charge, recoverable

-1 1/2 0 DCV Concentration with Not aware of suroundings

-1/4 Perception point can be detected and attacked by appropriate Attack, Body and DEF =AP/5, Stun equal to AP

 

11 Points

Sorry, that's scrying, not astral projection. Astral projection involves "being there," able to interact with the enviroment (admittedly in a very limited way), the risk of being detected and attacked. The desolid duplicate (or desolid multiform) seems more in genre, the deciding factor for me.

[Farkling]

Hey JmOz,

 

how is "Multiform, leaves Body behind" more of a nail than "Duplication, original is comatose" ??

 

The Duplication limit causes you to use only one of the Duplicates. Limited access to your duplicate.

 

The limited Multiform is creating something out of thin air that the power fundamentally does NOT create, i.e. an extra body.

 

Duplication certainly seems closer to me.

 

However!

The Multiform could be manufactured with the Physical Limitation "Physical Corpus remains at Multiform location"

(along with susceptible to damage to corpus, silver cord links corpus to multiform). The Multiform could even be to an AI or an actual dweller of the Astral Plane, built according to GM designated rules and options.

 

Duplication on the other hand, comes with feedback also, to simulate the damage taken by the immobile, unconscious form.

 

EDM doesn't quite cover it...as there would be no body behind.

Of course it could be EDM, affects mind only... hmmm.

[Lightray]

I mentioned this in another thread under the Champions forum, but after testing out Clairsentience-as-Astral Form, I just went ahead and created a new power based on the Clairsentience model.

 

We felt that Clairsentience had more traits of what Astral Forms do in comics -- move near-instantaneously, leave the body relatively unaware (via Blackout or Concentration or similar), allow crossing into the Astral or other dimensions.

 

There were a few problems with Clairsentience, though -- the targeting issues, and the fact that if the power is turned off the Astral Form is immediately back.

 

So, I made it a Mental/Sensory Power. I'm away from my home computer, but I see I've got an earlier version on this one:

 

 

PROJECTION

 

Mental Power / Sensory Power

Constant

Range (LOS, or 50 km × Active Points)

 

Projection is similar to the Clairsentience power. A character with Projection can project his awareness elsewhere, to use one or more of his Senses (usually Normal Sight) at a distance. One example of Projection is the ability of sorcerers to project their astral body.

Projection is a member of the Unusual Senses Group. Characters may purchase Sense Modifiers such as 360-Degree Perception for their Projection. Projection is not normally a Targeting Sense, though it may be bought as such. Projection, even if a Targeting Sense, cannot usually establish LOS.

Whenever a character uses Projection, it is as if he were standing some distance away from his current position, trying to perceive something. He designates a “perception point†from which his Projection works. He can change this perception point from use to use, and can put it anywhere within the range of his Projection. This allows him to see (or hear, smell, and so on) just as if he were standing there himself.

Calculate the Range Modifier for PER Rolls made via Projection from the perception point, not from where the character actually is. Objects in the way will not block Projection, but they may make it more difficult for a character to get his perception point in the desired spot. The GM may require a character to make an Attack Roll against DCV 3 (or higher, depending on the difficulty) to place his perception point properly.

Because Projection is also a Mental Power, however, the character may use his “perception point†as the point-of-origin of any other Mental Power. Projection allows the character to establish LOS of Mental Powers from the “perception point.â€

 

Other Dimensions:

Characters can use Projection to perceive into other dimensions. A character can perceive into a single dimension for +10 Character Points, or into a related group of dimensions for an additional +10 Character Points.

This option can have a powerful impact on the campaign, but can make an interesting plot element. Projection cannot perceive into the past or future — use Clairsentience (Precognition or Retrocognition) instead.

 

Range:

 

Combat and Noncombat Range: Projection has two different ranges, similar to Movement Powers with Combat and Noncombat Movement. If used at “Combat Rangeâ€, the range of Projection is Line of Sight. If used at “Noncombat Rangeâ€, the range of Projection is 500 km × the Active Points in the power.

 

Advantages:

 

Indirect: Characters do not have to purchase this Advantage for Projection; Projection is inherently “Indirect.â€

 

Costs END Only To Activate (+¼): Projection with this Advantage only costs END to turn on; it costs no END to maintain. However, if the character is Knocked Out, his Projection power ends.

 

Disadvantages:

 

Leaves Body Behind: This signifies that the body of the character is incapacitated and helpless while Projecting.

 

Blackout (-½): This Limitation signifies that the character cannot use his normal Sense while using his Projection – he cannot perceive anything through his personal Senses and can only perceive through his Projection until he turns the Power off (this includes any perils to or movement of his body).

 

 Projection Cost: 20 Character Points for a base PER Roll with one Sense Group; +10 Character Points per additional Sense Group, or +5 points per additional Sense; +10 Character Points to enter single other dimension, or +10 additional points to enter a related group of dimensions (Clairsentience, Mental Power [+1], Scalable [+½]; Affected by Magic [-½], Leaves Body Behind [-½])

[JmOz]

Originally posted by Farkling

Hey JmOz,

 

how is "Multiform, leaves Body behind" more of a nail than "Duplication, original is comatose" ??

 

The Duplication limit causes you to use only one of the Duplicates. Limited access to your duplicate.

 

The limited Multiform is creating something out of thin air that the power fundamentally does NOT create, i.e. an extra body.

 

Duplication certainly seems closer to me.

 

However!

The Multiform could be manufactured with the Physical Limitation "Physical Corpus remains at Multiform location"

(along with susceptible to damage to corpus, silver cord links corpus to multiform). The Multiform could even be to an AI or an actual dweller of the Astral Plane, built according to GM designated rules and options.

 

Duplication on the other hand, comes with feedback also, to simulate the damage taken by the immobile, unconscious form.

 

EDM doesn't quite cover it...as there would be no body behind.

Of course it could be EDM, affects mind only... hmmm.

 

It is a matter of primary function (at least to me):

 

Primary Function of Duplication: To allow a player to control multiple versions of the same character at the same time

 

Primary function of Multiform: To allow the player to control differnt versions of a character one at a time

 

In essence because the body cannot do anything it is not duplication (IMHO), but rather a form of Multiform with the limitation that it leaves the body behind.

 

Let me give you something to think about: A character with multiform can only change forms when he is at a big machine, the machine is one of a kind, and he cannot revert to base form without this machine. If this machine is destroyed he could not revert to form. No one would question that this should be a Multiform. However because Astral form leaves behind a body instead of a machine people say it should be duplication.

 

Another example: A character with Multiform Rips off his body, leaving physical remains (Dead body), I don't think many would make it with duplication, but except for the limitation that changing back requires you to be in the same place as your body, and the minor F/X that the body is still breathing, this multiform is very similar to astral projection

[zornwil]

Well, regardless, at least the increased consistency between Duplication and Multiform in 5th edition makes the points wash a bit better.

 

I'm unconvinced Multiform is "better" innately, although I understand the argument. The one thing still in favor of Duplication is that its feedback effects and it's handling of two physical bodies suits wherever that happens, IMHO, better than messing with Multiform to do the same. But that's all a matter of degree in how you define astral (or other) projection.

[pinecone]

Well clairsense can fit into the mental sense group if you want and most astral to real interactions are mental powers so If you modify clairsense to include Targeting and put in a "feedback" lim based on counterstrikes to the perception point you can get close....I guess I need to read up on Mystic masters...it covered the various "flavors" of astral and included Clairsense....

[Farkling]

If I remember correctly the old Mystic Masters included a Desol and a Clairsentience model for Astral Forms...they never considered Multiform or Duplication.

 

JmOz

how would you build the Matrix or Shadowrun "Net" effects?

 

Do the Characters buy powers that only work under thoise conditions? Or actual form shifts?

 

Can Neo use his cool martial arts outside of the Matrix?

 

I'm wondering now, as the Multiform / Duplication model seems slick for these ideas also, as the "digital form" is actually another character, and at base, we ARE talking about a form of Astral Projection.

 

I personally am unable to decide between Multiform / Duplication for the Matrix, that whole "drop dead when unplugged" effect could be either...

Neo's would be duplication, as he can exist in the matrix while disconnected from it...but the others? I am becoming inclined towards a Multiform effect.

[Edsel]

Horror Hero 4th Ed. had rules for Astral Travel which were a refinement of the Astral Projection rules from the old Hero System Almanac 1.

 

Basically you used a power called Shift Spirit (20pts per 1d6) to transfer the spirit (EGO was used) out of the body. This was also useful for things like "soul jar" type spells. If you only wanted to be able to Astrally Project yourself you'd take a Self-Only (-1) limitation.

 

Once seperated from the body the spirit was completely invisible and intangible. The spirit took with it the character's INT, EGO, DEX, PRE and SPD. The body kept the other attributes. To use any powers while Astral they'd have to be bought to 0 END or you'd need an END Reserve. Most skills were useless to a spirit unless you bought Telekinesis with a +2 Advantage to affect the real world.

 

Only another spirit could affect a spirit. You could also buy an Effects Spirits advantage, which was just like affects desolid but was a seperate and distinct advantage. In other words attacks bought with affects desoild would have no effect on a spirit, you'd have to buy affects spirits to do that.

 

To "kill" a spirit you'd have to destroy its EGO. There is also a power called Consume Spirit with was basically a ranged transfer/drain that cost 30pts per 1d6.

 

Astral Vision was a 10 point enhances sense that allowed you to see into the Astral plane.

 

The old Horror Hero spirit rules, in retrospect, seem a little cumbersome. It'll be interesting to see if the New Horror Hero, when released, covers this topic.

[JmOz]

Originally posted by Farkling

If I remember correctly the old Mystic Masters included a Desol and a Clairsentience model for Astral Forms...they never considered Multiform or Duplication.

 

JmOz

how would you build the Matrix or Shadowrun "Net" effects?

 

Do the Characters buy powers that only work under thoise conditions? Or actual form shifts?

 

Can Neo use his cool martial arts outside of the Matrix?

 

I'm wondering now, as the Multiform / Duplication model seems slick for these ideas also, as the "digital form" is actually another character, and at base, we ARE talking about a form of Astral Projection.

 

I personally am unable to decide between Multiform / Duplication for the Matrix, that whole "drop dead when unplugged" effect could be either...

Neo's would be duplication, as he can exist in the matrix while disconnected from it...but the others? I am becoming inclined towards a Multiform effect.

 

Of course it depends on the depth, but If I were to run a Net game (Cyberpunk or Shadowrun like) I would require it to be bought as EDM linked to Multiform, the Multiform is obviously for the net persona. I don't think I would allow the leave body behind on the EDM, but I might...I will have to think on that some...