Chuckg

Actually, there is one thing -- you can scale villains to size, but you can't scale normals to size. 350-pointers worry if you send a well-trained platoon after them. 750-pointers, you need a small battalion, or else you need to pass out 16d6 blaster rifles.

19 -- Nama, I Would Have Words With Thee! VIPER suddenly starts going into paranoid-overdrive mode re: magical threats. Various prominent billionaires and politicians (Council of Thirty) members are mysteriously dropping dead. Several VIPER nests appear to have... vanished. Ice Station VIPER doesn't report in anymore, but an army of zombies in green is now marching south... ... good God, is that *Viperia's* skull on a stick? ... Takofanes the Undying has just found out that an old rival of his, Nama the Serpent God, still walks the Earth, and that VIPER is his cats-paws. And the Undying Lord has unleashed the full force of his fury upon the servants of the Snake. (Edit -- hey, VIPER and Nama working together took out Sharna-Gorak. Takofanes might be dead, but he ain't *brain* dead. Gotta get rid of the flunkies first before taking down the big boss. If you can kill them and then necro-Borg them into being *your* flunkies in the process, even better.) If you've read Takofanes entry, then you know what 'the full force of his fury' means. *shudder* It *starts* with the sky going black at noon, and works up from there to rains of fire and seas of blood... Four-color heroes have their hands full trying to stop one of the most dangerous beings in the entire history of the world from calling out one of the last true gods embodied on the mortal plane. Grittier heroes can also angst about the dilemna of 'Is destroying VIPER worth the price of letting Takofanes go unchecked? Is finally putting the Archlich down worth the price of a devil's bargain with the Supreme Serpent?'

A team of 750-1000 point characters can make Doctor Destroyer or Takofanes call for backup. Heroes of this scale are obviously going to get JLA-sized challenges, JLA-sized responsibilities, and JLA-sized notoriety whether they want it or not. Oh yes, and strain your creativity to make sure you mix "epic battles vs. hugely epic foes" in with "battles vs. villainous hordes" vs. "battles vs. people that the team could crush in a heartbeat in a straight fight, but are taking this long anyway because of some off-the-wall reason, preferably funny"... ... and never forget the single greatest DM's friend in high-power campaigns... ... Character-Driven Subplots. Beg for story hooks in your player's origins. Shout with glee when they come up with interesting and engaging DNPC's. Encourage them to write detailed histories of their lives and their (suitably epic) roles in the world, to have friends, to have acquaintances, to have things they love and other things they feel responsible for. Encourage every player to have some vague idea -- they don't have to map it all out in advance, and indeed trying to map it *all* out would be counterproductive -- but to have *some* idea of what personal journey they intend for their character to make. Because nobody starts out physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually perfect... or if they do, then you have to make the subplot 'how a perfect being copes in an imperfect world', with all the Gaiman-esque philosophy that entails. Speaking of Gaiman, if you want your demigods to taste mortality for a while, don't forget the Dreaming... and Virtual Realities... and everything else. And if you've gone through all that and they're still bored, then unplug their asses from the Matrix and have 'em roleplay *that*

Actually, the one that *really* made me laugh was this one: http://www.gamespy.com/comics/nodwick/ffn/ffn019.htm

> 2. a villian who doesn't confront them in combat (at first), > but makes it clear their Secret IDs, DNPCs, or various > interests are on the line (and not just physically - perhaps > the villians contacts can get wives and girlfriends fired - > etc). In yesterday's session, our DM did precisely that to our team's martial artist -- rather than have Green Dragon (somebody who Streethawk, our team MA, can fold up like an accordion) merely challenge him in the street and get pounded, the DM had Deng sneak into his apartment, leave nasty notes in the refrigerator, and scare the living whey out of Streethawk's fiancee. Right now, Streethawk -- on temporarly leave of absence from the Millennium City PD -- is busy obsessively tearing MC's Chinatown apart on his off time in civilian clothes, and had to be forcibly restrained from issuing an open challenge to Green Dragon on citywide television. So yes, it does get the dramatic tension up *quite* a bit. It also gets the supervillain mangled, because when Streethawk finally catches Green Dragon, odds are about even that his Enraged is gonna go off.

The Thor vs. Silver Surfer victories are what some friends of mine jokingly call "Pre-Crisis Thor"... (as in Pre-Crisis Superman vs. Post-Crisis Supes). Thor was a lot more buff during the early Simonson era than he's been in later eras, just as the Silver Surfer's been a lot more buff in many later appearances in his own title than he was in many of his earlier FF appearances and other such contemporaries. Then again, both Thor and the Surfer have had such wide variation up and down in their power curves over their respective lifetimes that they genuinely are an 'Any Given Sunday' situation, IMO. It depends on which point in their lifeline you pick the Surfer and Thor from. (It also depends on whether or not the Surfer will display the tactical ability of a hard-boiled egg or not... Norrin is *really* awful about using the full potential of his powers sometimes, whereas Thor is a very experienced warrior.)

Starguard -- grab the Mayor and extend her 20 PD/20 ED "Protects Carried" Force Field around him.

Very well. As soon as I see Pattern Ghost's posts go down, I'll delete all of my sarcastic responses and continuations of the flame war. Edit -- and now they're all down, and so should all of mine be. If I missed one, somebody please let me know where.

Agent X -- I missed this post of yours before... [snip] > Why can't Batman neutralize his rogues' gallery as easily as > he can outwit Supes? That's the thing. He *can* neutralize 99.9+% of his rogues' gallery as easily as etc... with extremely rare exceptions such as Ra's Al Ghul, "Batman vs. X" conflicts end with X in jail or in Arkham. At which point, the Editor Gawds intervene and allow X a chance for recidivism, instead of simply burying him in the Slab for fifty years to life. But then again, every other superhero (except for the Frank Castle-type lethal-force using vigilantes) suffers this problem as well... no matter how many times they put the villains away, no matter how cleverly they do so, the villains will keep coming back. That includes Captain America, BTW. As well as Reed Richards, Thor, etc, etc. I say again -- you cannot use Batman's "failure" to eliminate his Rogue's Gallery permanently from play as proof that Batman is somehow incapable... ... because nigh-on every superhero ever published, no matter how powerful, no matter how skilled, no matter how brilliant, and no matter how devious, has the exact same problem -- the villains will, eventually, get out of jail and get back in the plot. Edit -- the only real solution to the above problem has been the Frank Castle/Authority solution... kill the villains. At which point, all they've done is trade in the recidivism problem for another problem... i.e., for every villain they mow down, two more spring up.

Pattern -- re: 'logic'... you are mistaken in the belief that logic doesn't apply to comic books. Logic applies to everything. *Real-world physics* doesn't apply to comic books, just as it fails to apply to much science fiction, virtually all fantasy, and most other genres. And yet, fiction of all varieties is still able to deliver *internally* consistent stories and arguments, even if those arguments are not *externally* consistent with mundane physical laws. This is a form of logic... one of the most basic forms, called 'consistency'. re: 'rat's ass' -- [snip] Vigil -- again, I just can't grasp why you are so determined to have Cap be *that far* above peak human. I mean... Cap easily dodges volleys of machine-gun fire at point-blank range. So does Batman. Cap easily throws aerodynamic projectiles on obnoxious ricochet and boomerang shots and never, ever misses. So does Batman. Cap effortlessly does gymnastics under harrying circumstances. Batman has been routinely throwing swinglines around Gotham City for years without ever once becoming street pizza... and remember, at the heights he works at the first time Batman ever blows a Bat-line grapple is the *last* time he'll blow one, barring a miracle. Cap can do curls with weights than normal bodybuilders would be hard-pressed to use for their bench press. Batman can pick up and move vending machines that would normally take two guys and a dolly to drag. The one *big* superiority I will grant Cap physically is endurance -- Batman still has a metabolism that generates fatigue poisons, Cap explicitly does not. But just because Batman can do an Iron Man triathlon and "only" have enough wind left at the end of it to beat down fifteen ninjas, that's still extremely damn impressive, and the fact that Cap could do that same triathlon and barely have broken a sweat at all won't change that. IMO, *if* Captain America beats Batman in a straight-up hand-to-hand fight... and that's by no means a guarantee... then Cap will do so by dragging the fight out for a *very* long time, and gradually wearing Batman down until he's finally done enough wearing that he can make the KO punch actually land home. But there will be no walkovers, no 'casually sweep the net aside and surprise Batman with the pounce', and nothing else of the tone of 'I'm Captain America, you're only human.' Cap is peak human, not Agent Smith. Edit -- [snip]

While I agree with you re: their relative skill levels, I was leaving Deathstroke and Val Armorr out of my calculations of "best" because in Deathstroke's case it's not skill, it's pure metahuman stats -- and in Val's case, well, I guess I was thinking only of 20th-century martial artists. I'm with you on the fact that if he was allowed into the contest, he'd destroy everybody else there on pure skill alone and never break a sweat. I disagree with you, however, about how Cap's physical stats are 'far beyond' human capacity. The whole point about Cap is that he's peak human, not metahuman. Your scenario about him picking up a net and throwing it back upon Batman before Batman can see it move... sorry, just don't see it. *Deathstroke* isn't *that* much faster relative to the Bat (he is faster, but not that much faster), and he *IS* in the definitely superhuman range. The thing about Batman is that he's about as physically peak human as it can get without actually invoking Super-Soldier Serum, but *with* invoking a buttload of mind-over-body disciplines in addition to what is literally a lifetime of fanatic training.

Re: number 14... while I can see a low-end VIPER agent doing that, obviously this guy is somebody who got passed over for Elite Agent Training. (If VIPER /doesn't/ make an effort to get the fingerprints/DNA of dead agents from the morgue and check them out to make sure it's actually the agent in question, I'd be /extremely/ surprised. Faking your own death has got to be #1 on the list of "Ways to hopefully keep VIPER from hunting me down")

One of the most horrific things I ever went up against in a Champions game was... 2d6 AP RKA, No Range Penalty (+1/2), Indirect (comes from same location) (+1/4) linked to Telescopic N-Ray Vision (not through force fields or lead) (edit -- to use the NRP and the N-Ray you had to peer through the scope, which was a half-Phase action... i.e., it was a full-Phase action to shoot this bastard.) A man portable railgun rifle that shoots effortlessly through anything short of hardened defenses or Questonite (we made it a -0 limitation that the DU railgun slug couldn't go through anything that it's max damage couldn't penetrate), linked to a comic-book tech "X-ray vision" targeting scope. Do you have any idea of how frightening it is to try and fight somebody who's doing the Golgo-13 and shooting you *THROUGH* the building? OTOH, unlike Terminus Est, you actually have a chance to survive being hit with this thing (especially if you have Combat Luck), and if you use your brain properly and the DM is kind enough to provide opportunities, you might even get away. (And yes, it was based upon the railgun from "Eraser")

Re: Cassandra and her move-reading ability... after vigorous training with Lady Shiva, Cassandra got it back. She can speak now *and* she has the full uber-thing she had before. Cassandra's having lost that ability temporarily (an ability which Shiva shares, BTW) is why she lost the first fight vs. Shiva... the second time, she was fighting unimpaired. Re: Lady Shiva and that recent showing vs. Talia... well, the comics discussion forum I hang out on has a term for such events -- 'Spider-Man vs. Firelord'. (i.e. -- a one-off fluke occurrence where a character came in vastly above or below their usual performance level, in a manner that just isn't even remotely plausible.)

Actually, while the dialogue said that, the actual results didn't support it... Batman has fought Shiva three times, and while he's never won any points without outside assistance, he's always managed to keep her from hurting *him* too badly. Connor went up against Shiva and almost died. He did inflict more damage on her than Batman ever has (Shiva's broken arm)... but Shiva repaid that by kicking in his ribs and putting him down and helpless, and she would've shoved that sword right through his head if Robin hadn't called in that debt of honor she owed him to save Connor's life. So despite the narrative hyperbole, I do not consider Connor Hawke as superior to Batman... superior to Nightwing, yes, clearly, but Batman's made a better showing than he did, repeatedly. Cassandra Cain has fought Shiva (edit) twice that I can recall... she got bitch-slapped all through the first one and then sucker-punched Shiva after the fight was over (punched her with her /broken/ arm, no less!), and won the second one cleanly by knockout... but it was still a very close thing.

Pattern Ghost -- who the hell said that Batman was the best hand-to-hand combatant in the DCU? "The Best in the DCU" is a title that has a helluva lot of crowding at the top. Then again, the only two contenders for that title who are clearly ahead of Batman (Cassandra Cain and Lady Shiva) both have such obnoxious chi mastery and other such aberrant skills that they are *WELL* up into the metahuman range, despite having absolutely no metagenes. (Cassandra can move in literal Matrix bullet time for brief periods, finish punching four people unconscious before the first one she hit has time enough to finish the blink she caught him halfway through, shatter brick walls *by accident* while fighting, and see an enemy's movements before it happens. Shiva hasn't yet demonstrated bullet time (because she doesn't have any fight scenes vs. people with guns), but she matches Cassandra neck-and-neck in everything else.) It is a logical fallacy to assume that you *must* be the best in the DCU to compare with the best in the MU. And BTW, nobody here has disputed the fact that Cap has a superior physique to Batman... only marginally superior in some areas (reaction time, agility), somewhat superior in others (strength), downright obnoxiously superior in one (endurance). What we are saying is that between his skills and his unorthodoxness, Batman can make up for loss of physicality with better and smarter fighting. Another logical fallacy is to make the assumption that because we're saying that Cap isn't as clever, as adept at controlling the battlefield, or etc. as Captain America, we are therefore somehow claiming that Cap is stupid. Cap is not stupid. Cap is quite briliant, agreed. It's just that Batman is significantly *above* "quite" brilliant... he's all the way up there at "breathtaking genius", with some spikes on the chart that go all the way up to "Holy Shit".

Batman was beaten by Prometheus... the first time. When Batman admits that he was stupidly overconfident and let his guard down. The second time, in 'World War III', Batman was successfully making Prometheus eat his billy club even /before/ the cheat with the helmet came into play, on pure skill alone. Batman only needed to activate the helmet cheat because Prometheus had brought his wrist-gun into play at a critical moment... the pure HTH brawl was going all Batman's way.

... unless they genuinely do make the obnoxious success on the SC: Genetics or SC: Neurochemistry roll to cure Grond's mental retardation and explosive rage issues.

Well, Grond *is* 'just misunderstood' -- or, more accurately, he's so brain-damaged that he genuinely doesn't have the ability to tell the difference from right vs. wrong, or to be able to act upon that difference if he can tell it...

> Full continuity reboot = retcon. Yes, but hardly "this week's". If we use Post-Crisis continuity only, that's still almost *25 years* worth of comics. Post Zero-Hour only, that's still around 10 years. [snip]

The 'Batman has trouble with pro boxers' era isn't just Pre Zero-Hour, it's Pre-Crisis. Remember, Marvel might not have full continuity reboots, but the DCU *does*.

Hunter1 -- if the team wants to do it within the law, and they have sufficient legal sanction, they can try to convince the relevant DA to let Grond stay in *their* custody while proceedings go on... ... and given that Grond genuinely *is* mentally incompetent to stand trial, "proceedings" should consist of the court hearing handing Grond over for treatment... and since they're the only attempted treatment that's shown any success, shouldn't that be...?

> My annoyance with the Batman camp is that many of them > seem to believe it wouldn't be close if Batman had time to > plan. You would think that there wouldn't be any crime in > Gotham if Batman was as capable as they imply. Faulty logic, and reductio ad absurdum besides. All the planning in the world cannot overcome the basic physical limitations that: a) it still takes a finite amount of time to plan and Batman can only be in one place at one time. Hence, the continued presence of crime in Gotham no matter *how* good he is. OTOH, vs. a single foe (such as Cap), that limitation isn't really coming into play... You do realize, of course, that by similar 'logic' it can be argued that virtually every superhero in every comic ever written is an incompetent dolt, because crime still exists on their planet.

If Only We'd Sold Short The First Time... The Council of Thirty moves billions of dollars into selling short on various key stocks... and then stages a 9/11-sized terror event to temporarily crash the entire US economy. Again. It's a big gamble, natch. If VIPER pulls it off, they make *dozens* of billions in profits *and* are in a position to buy large chunks of stock in everything. If they *don't* pull it off, they *lose* billions. Which is why the Supreme Serpent's throwing everything he's got into the pool. Golden Serpent Agents, Viper-X, the best of Dragon Branch, everything short of Viperia.. and maybe even her, if they can figure out a way to point her precisely enough.

> Imagine Batman's surprise if he encountered one or more > vampires, or a Slayer in action. Sorry, I can't imagine it, I'm crippled by logic. Batman has seen more metahumans of more variety than most of us have had hot dinners. > Who would win a fight between Batman and either a Slayer > or a vampire? I don't think it would be Batman. Seeing as how the average Buffyvamp shifts into game face whenever balked, it's not as if Batman won't figure out quite soon that he's facing a vampire, and that's assuming its lack of reflection or some other clue -- you did remember that he's one of the most observant people alive, right? -- hasn't already told him. At which point, Batman's kicking its ass to the curb. In addition to the aforementioned Xander and Cordelia examples, Riley Finn can take vampires in hand-to-hand combat... and as all Buffy fans know, Riley's pretty much the Platonic Ideal of idiocy. As for Batman vs. a Slayer -- she has metahuman strength and resilience. And he's got skill. I see Buffy vs. Batman as a fight where Buffy swings fifteen times and punches air fifteen times, getting increasingly more and more frustrated, only to completely blow her head gasket when Batman calmly informs her 'You really need to learn how not to telegraph so obviously.' Cue rage-filled head-down-and-swinging charge from Buffy. (I mean, sheesh, about the only person with *less* temper control than Buffy is Akane Tendo.) Cue Batman using a bit of aikido to turn her own strength against her, watching her bounce head-first off the wall, and zapping her with a taser shot before she can recover. (Remember, Slayers have been downed in one shot by normal cattle prods.)