Sean Waters

Re: Change of Speed 1. and 2. OK, but Old Mr Horowicz, he has 8 DEX and only 1 Speed. Why can't he sell back the 8 points? 3. If you are right about it costing END every phase, you're right about it costing END if you try to activate it and fail. 4. Not in dispute, but if you DO have a fractional speed, why shouldn't the character points act as a buffer against drains, or a fillup for aids? 5. Yes, I didn't get that at first but now I do, but the speed change system still doesn't do the job as well as it could.

Re: Killing attack optioal damage From the fruit basket. Apples and oranges, but only to an extent. 2 1/2d6 = 15 x 5 maximum damage, and you'll probably get that a couple of times in a (combat intensive) session. To do 75 points of stun with a normal attack you'd have to roll on average 21 dice, and when you are rolling that many dice the result will always be close to the average. You will never in your lifetime roll 21 straight 6's. Even comparing apples and apples, 2 1/2 d6 KA is 8 DC. Max 15 Body and 75 Stun. and 8d6 normal attack maxes out at 16 Body and 48 Stun. Why is the normal attack doing more Body and less Stun than a killing attack? Shurely shome mishtake? 10d6 - having an subway car dropped on you. Still should do more damage than the shotgun...but doesn't.

Re: Oihid Yeah...so how do you kill cockroaches then?

Re: Oihid I agree. But... Limitations and different builds are all a matter of how they are played and run. Take the example from earlier of Little Timmy and his OAF Cosmic Rod. With 5 STR and 8 DEX, taking it off him is a doddle. Mega Morpho with his 35 DEX and 75 STR is a different kettle of fish, but you get the same points for both, and you get to build on more than 350 points. The value of limitations is relative to the other powers your character is built with, but we don't work it out that way. Your multiform idea is great until the character realises that for another 5 points and another magic word he can have a second form, and a whole new 350 points, maybe all on defences and regeneration, so he's only building on 350 points at a time, but he's building with a lot more than 350 points. By the same argument, do away with power frameworks, nasty point giving constructs they are. Actually, in all seriousness, I'm with you on that one... We could get rid of OIHID and do it another way and you'd hardly see the join, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be there for those who want it. Just a thought, but we could all just walk away from this one and claim a moral victory...

Re: Oihid

Re: Oihid Actually kryptonite and superman is a good example. How common is kryptonite? Not very. How often does it come up in the stories? Constantly. Why? Well, presumably the GM is doind his job.

Re: Killing attack optioal damage Bullets are not as good as many people seem to think. Could you really shoot through an armoured wall with a shotgun? No. You can in Hero. A lot of bullets can go through a concrete wall in one go (BODY + DEF!) in Hero. Not in 'reality'. And it isn't just bullets. Could you stab a sword through a brick wall? You can in Hero! Someone is going to mention 'real weapon' any time now, but if you need limitations to make it work, it shouldn't be built that way in the first place. The damage something can do is a function of the amount of kinetic energy it transfers, how hard the relative materials are and a bunch of other stuff. If a bullet can not penetrate Colossus' skin - and he is organic steel right the way through, so just as hard inside as out, a bullet is not going to stun him. He doesn't just look hard. He is hard. He probably has better defences than the front of a main battle tank. Know what bullets do to the front of a main battle tank? Nothing.

Re: black market items You could make something illegal. That's always good for creating a black market.

Re: Expending Energy for effects Oh I hate myself for suggesting this, but you probably need a VPP. All VPP powers work off an END reserve, can't take reduced END, have to cost END if they don't already and you can, if you want, convert the whole thing to a healing pool, which is a lot of healing.

Re: Expending Energy for effects I don't think you can do it in HERO without major kludging, but if you are converting the whole system and EVERYONE will have similar powers, rather than just converting one character into a Champions game, use a house rule: You can convert END in your END reserve to STUN (on a 1 point for one point basis) or BODY (on a 2 points for 1 point basis) as a free action. Your combats are going to take forever. You know that, don't you?

Re: Killing attack optioal damage Bullets are good at killing if they penetrate. A bullet carries a lot of kinetic energy, so if it is stopped by a vest, the energy is changed from penetrating force, that would go in and mush you up, to more diffuse force (you might call it a normal attack), but it is still applied. A heavyweight boxer can deliver as much kinetic energy as a bullet, and that punch would stun you to, but then you are a normal. Against supers the heavyweight boxer will hardly be noticed, and the bullet shouldn't be either.

Re: Killing attack optioal damage

Mesmeric mind controls Super Janet. The command is: "Do as you are told" and he gets it at +30. Does this mean that Super Janet has to do what she is told? If so, it means that you don't need to do another attack to issue another command, which is powerful magic. You could answer: well, she will do as she is told, but only the next thing she is told...but the MC is still in place, she is still obeying the order...why should it only last one command? Another problem: this time the command is:"Answer truthfully whatever you are asked" - does that mean Mesmeric doesn't need to bother buying Telepathy too? And again: "See your allies as enemies" - can you turn MC into a sort of Mental Illusions too? How do we stop Mesmeric, when the one power can make Super Janet do what she is told, reveal her thoughts and perceive reality differently?

Re: Oihid I'd assumed the levels were being bought for EDCV, so they'd have to be 3 pointers with say, Ego attack, Mind Control and Mental Illusions. Worth it for the EDCV even if you don't have those powers. Or youcould use 5 pointers and add appropriate limitations (14- activation, costs END, OIHID....)

Re: concept vs. booklegal Mega scale I like your application of megascale to strength for throwing distance. Very imaginative. Not so sure I'd allow the 'can be scaled down' on the hyperflight III. Megascale is a huge advantage (PUN!) and being able to set the level of it would certainly be worth more than +1/4 IMO, if I allowed it at all. Having a supersense in a MP. Hmmmmm......

Re: concept vs. booklegal Look, I know I'm dim, but are you using the teleport to get in position for the move through, so you can come in from odd angles...if so I really don't think you need it if you take position shift and no turn mode on flight you can come in from any angle. Buy flight skill, roll it when you do the move through, and if you do well in an opposed roll against the opponent's perception, you can get a +1 to +3 surprise bonus. OR, to move away after the move through...I don't think you can do this because it would require the activation of the power after an attack. OR, in some way, to do the movethrough - which I think is specifically against the rules EVEN WITH the 'has to cross intervening space thing. I guess what I am saying is I still don't properly see what you use the teleport for (PUN!). What is the concept and what are the intended game effects? Other than my one blind spot, the character lookls excellent.

Re: Oihid It is, until the Monkey Psychic buys 2 point levels with his Ego Blast too. As a general defence to mental attack though, it is far more effective than mental defence. Well worth looking at too, and often forgotten, is damage resistance to mental. It doesn't just reduce the damage from Ego Blast, but reduces all mental power effects. Probably only worth it if psychics are a real problem, but you'll never be MC'd at the +20 or +30 level again, even when you do run into a 20d6 mind control... Can I also mention, just from the roleplaying angle, one use we put Hero ID to. Fortress used to be the world's most powerful man, about 40 years ago, then he got a heart condition and... He is a normal who turns into a superman with 3/4 of his points spent in OIHID. I was running the game and built all the characters, so no one was munchkining. Well, except me, and I was the GM so that was OK. Anyway, during a particularly strenuous battle, Fortress has a heart attack and saves himself by turning back to human form. Took weeks before he had the courage to turn back into Fortress to see if he would live...now that was worth the points all on its own.

Re: Killing attack optioal damage Wolverine has squidgy insides. Has anyone, ever ever ever seen Collossus (in armoured form) get stunned by a bullet? No. The stun lottery does some things well, but it does some things badly. I'm not keen on it, but everyone to their own. All I can suggest is that if you think it is a good thing then you have no right to moan when some punk with a saturday night special takes out your superman clone with a lucky shot, and if you play characters with killing attacks, you should expect them to be used against you plenty. Goose. Gander. Say hello to the sauce.

Re: Interpreting "Body" Ramblings... My take is that Body represents how hard it is to destroy you. In most cases, will to live is a small part of that, but only a small part. With superpowers giving you the ability to literally change your body it may be a lot more. A creature with no internal organs, or undifferentiated organs should be harder to destroy than one with vital organs. Y'see that is the thing about the human form, you can kill it by breaking enough unimportant bits that the functionality just stops, or you can do the 'bullet through the Honda' thing, if you hit a vital organ. Of course defences also play a large part in how hard you are to kill, and can not easily be seperated from the concept of Body. To simulate the 'bullet through the Honda thing, use hit locations and the impairing and disabling rules. To simulate the gradual erosion of your ability to live, just use Body straight from the book. Vehicles damaged as you describe can lose one of their powers - like your Honda's running - so the system holds up there. With ideal character design, a massive, dense, structurally tough character with well defended soft spots should have more Body than the avarage speedster, but I can see arguments...the damage is in some way processed or avoided by the speedster (isn't that a function of DCV?) so the high total represents the fact that he moves ten times faster than us. the Massive Brick has a low body because he is squidgy inside, but huge defences so he rarely takes Body. I'd say, as you did, there is no answer, but I would advocate anyone building a character thinks about why htey have a particular characteristic value, not just stick CON at 23 because it is efficient to do so...high Body or low Body, I'm sure you can justify it, but that is it - you SHOULD justify it in concept. Really not sure where I'm going with this. Might just drive around until someone puts a bullet in my engine...

Re: Gestures and Restrainable For the little it may be worth, I think that there is not too much point in trying to get it too right, because the level of the limitation is not independent of the rest of the character. An example: The Cosmic Rod , a staff like OAF is wielded by Little Timmy. Little Timmy has a DEX of 8 due to his bad leg, and a strength of 5 because he is so little. Taking it off him is easy. Mighty Morph has the Cosmic Rod . He has 35 DEX and 75 Strength. Just how accessable is the Cosmic Rod now? ...but they both get the +1 bonus. Arguably they shouldn't, but, and trust me on this one my children, that way lies only madness.

Re: Killing attack optioal damage Maybe we should try a killing attack on it. Hehehehe. There's a couple of recent threads running this one into the ground (again). No criticism implied as you will see if you look at the threads I'm as guilty as anyone (moreso - I started some of them). I think we need a big bumper compendium of ways to deal with killing attacks from 'leave it alone' to 'scrap it from the system' and everywhere in between, where we can wallow and bemoan the choices of others. Hell, what am I saying, we ALREADY have discussion boards!

Re: Oihid Oh my god, are you still arguing this one? Look, Gary is right, you can abort to a Hero ID, but it depends if your GM lets you. If you can then there should be some other commensurate disadvantage, and if there isn't then the charcter shouldn't be getting points for the limitation. Whether a Hero ID is limiting depends on whether the GM and/or player is willing to put in the effort to play it properly. It is no more or less restricting than other limitations if it is played/enforced right. I think it is a role playing opportunity so I am going to allow it in my games and build characters using it, but I won't feel at all put out if anyone takes a different view. See you all in another three or four pages...

Re: Change of Speed My concern is less that the end result can not be achieved - it clearly can - but that I can think of no good reason why the rule needed to be changed in the first place - it was done the 'old' way - where you could sell back fractional speed through every edition of Champions and HERO up to and including 5th edition - until it was changed in the erratta and FAQ. Why? The fact that you can side step the issue neatly (that'll be the extra DEX then) doesn't mean the issue goes away. Can you think of one good reason for the rule change? Can't be simplicity, it is actually a little more complicated to record points that do not effect your totals in case you need to use them later. What is the point? Anyone? As a devil's advocate myself, I recognise one of my brethren at work...was it not you who suggested, earlier in this thread, that one way to buy up speed was to add limitations then buy them off later? insert hours of argument +7 DEX, no figured was when I was doing breathing exercises to centre and calm myself, so my accuracy and agility improved now I am working on translating that body control into explosive power and combination moves, so that I can use it more efficiently, and get more actions in. Anyway, that was always the concept - I told you that when I bought the DEX!

Re: Change of Speed Right: +1 Speed with activation roll is easy enough because you only roll once per turn, right at the start, so you know what the speed for that turn is and it doesn't chage 'in turn', but if you don't want it, don't have it. To balance the odds you don't have to make activation rolls every phase, SO LONG AS YOU MAKE THEM AT SET INTERVALS, not just when the player wants to activate, for example you could roll all activations at the beginning of every turn and the player could either use or not use the power for the whole turn. Mathematically it makes no difference doing it that way. SPEED costing END...well I see it as a 10 active point power you use once per turn (see the activation roll point above), so it should cost a commensurate amount of END. You are not getting advantages like increased OCV/DCV or anything, just one more phase....which is of course useful...but only costs 10 active points. Build cost: I can see absolutely no point in saying you can not buy your fractional speed back. It has always been done that way, and was done in FRED (see 'senior citizen' write up, until they changed it in the FAQ and erratta). Steve won't discuss design philosophy, but I can't think of one good reason to disallow the buy back of fractional speed. Having said that, and as Hugh Neilson pointed out - 27 DEX, 3 SPD: never going to happen. In game cost: I can see more sense in ignoring fractional speed for in game mechanics - then 10 points in loss of one speed, but I have never found it at all difficult or confusing to allow a character with fractional speed to use the unused points as a small buffer against speed loss. Unless someone can give me a good reason why not (and I am beginning to feel that 'because that is the way it is done in HERO' is not a good reason) I would be inclined to stick with what I know. Zornwil points out that being able to buy an extra point of speed for 3 points is an advantage, and I agree there is utility there, but it is no more an advantage than any of the other methods suggested: if you could buy (in Hugh Neilson's example) as the Player 3 or 4 example, you could (when you had the extra points) persuade the GM to move the points around to let you change it to 27DEX 4SPD, so you would have the same utility anyway. Mind you, I don't think I have ever bought back fractional speed unless I am designing a GM character for a particular purpose. Speed is useful and quite cheap. Finally involuntary speed changes: I don't think they work right in the present system, although most of the time you don't notice any difficulties there is still room for inequities in changing speed. The system I suggested earlier works better, but I'm sure you can think of your own ways to do it. Will 5ER sort the problem....? Voluntary speed changes can largely be limited to end of turn...except with things like multiforms/aids and so on.

Re: Superhero Images Thank you Bblack and Blue for your kind assistance...wish me luck.... ...muttermutter...not doing this right...damn computers....