Bengal

Re: Looking for NEW words of transformation: (SHAZAM, Thunder! Thunder!...)

This thread is too long to go back and read them all. But in case no one else has said it, the Tick says, "Spoon"... as a rallying cry rather than a transformation word, but it seems to be relevant.

Never underestimate cuttlery.

Re: Speaking of mixed power levels

A while back I was toying with running a mixed-power-level game based on Alan Moore's Top 10. Each player would be given a pool of points (say' date=' 600 or so) with which to build 2 characters, who would work together as partners in their role as super-powered police officers. Thus, some partnerships would be like those of Smax and Toybox (or King Peacock & Synesthesia), where one is clearly the powerhouse and the other is primarily a utility character, while others could have roughly equivalent power and skill levels, much like the team of Shockheaded Peter and Dust Devil, or Irma Geddon & Joe Pi.[/quote']

 

 

Mmmmm.... Top 10. Nummy nummy!

 

There was a one-shot or miniseries which I never got about ten years ago about a superhero who only had his powers while in close proximity to a tiny, frail child (who was called Nifty Lad I think). So everywhere he went, he had to carry this kid around with him. I think it was played very optimistically and romantically, maybe even for laughs... but it does bring up an interesting campaign idea, one where each player gets a pool of points out of which to make two characters, who are only superpowered when they are together.

 

I think there was something about Quantum and Woody, who had this goat or something, along the same idea. One guy was a superhero, the other guy wasn't, but they had to fight crime together or something bad would happen.

 

 

600 point total, while fairly arbitrary, might be the way to go.

Re: Doom Patrol Champions

Doom Patrol seem to me to also be an answer to the X-Men and Spider-Man... their powers are limited and fairly focused compared to the JLA and most other previous DC heroes, although they are definitely "super", unlike the Challengers or Sea Devils. They are all considered freaks to some extent, like mutants are at Marvel and unlike the JLA were (even though Aquaman probably should have been a Doom Patrol character and not a JLAer, which was a plot element in the JLA Year One mini by Mark Waid a few years ago).

Doom Patrol, as we're talking about it here, seems to mirror Marvel's early Silver Age very well. In fact, I imagine them spouting dialogue that could just as easily have come from the FF and relying on teamwork (rather than individual strength) just like the original X-Men.

The Metal Men, on the other hand, are an interesting case: This group couldn't have been from Marvel's Silver Age; their power levels are too high and the differentiation between them so small (except perhaps for Mercury) that they would have been more apt to serve the Mad Thinker than be a good guy group. I don't think that any of the early Marvel heroes could have matched them in power level, aside from Thor and the Hulk; and the relative power level difference between Marvel and DC at that time (and nowadays to some extent) puts them firmly in the DCU to my mind.

Re: Is OAF worth a -1 limitation?

I kind of think that OAF is the baseline for a -1 advantage. It can be broken, stolen, or left in the car, so it's fairly common that a guy will end a battle without it. In my opinion, if you're getting way too many OAFs in your game, you ought to break, steal, and otherwise neutralize foci more often.

Re: Doom Patrol Champions

Ugh. Nothing like retconning four entire runs of a comic series just because you feel like it. . .

I didn't know it was John Byrne at the helm?

Re: Powered Armor: OIF versus OIHID

I just don't respect this kind of reasoning. We're talking about the definition of a limitation and suddenly you're talking about cheesy framework constructions which are not the topic. If the power armor can be taken away, if the power armor can be broken, if the user of the power armor may not always have it one, that power armor IS a focus.

 

Ah, the munchkin ad hominem attack. sad

I think I've played Battletech four times in my life, ten plus years ago. It's a fun game but not my thing.

 

Potential for abuse? Why don't you wait for ACTUAL abuse and then say no way. You are jumping to conclusions.

 

An interesting point - most power armor characters are either superscientists or have some serious perks. Skills and perks cost points.

 

A well built power armor character using the focus limitation is just as possible as any other well built character. I am always surprised at the level of prejudice that is always exhibited by individuals who want to LIMIT something MORE than the rulebooks require because of POTENTIAL abuse.

 

Again, as to the munchkin issue, if you automatically assume that the focus limitation for power armor will be abused, I'd look closer to home than my players for munchkins.

Whoa! I've be slapped!

Actually an ad hominem attack is one made toward a person rather than a group of people or an idea. I wasn't thinking of you at the time, Agent X (you're more of a pharmer than a munchkin anyway LOL).

The rest of your pionts are valid. I'll rethink.

Anyway, it's currently moot; my second child is coming very soon, and I don't think I'll see the inside of a games store for about nine or so months. Plenty of time to jump prematurely to my next set of ill-conceived conclusions. Feel free to pre-slap me this time.

Re: Powered Armor: OIF versus OIHID

The abuse made possible by clever point-hoarding inherent to power armor characters, entire frameworks (with chars and some talents, rDef and ranged attacks, movement and life support, whatever you want really) in addition to a flat rate of 25%-33% off, makes me farily wary of these constructions.

Unless it's truly nothing other than a focus, and you can't lawyer your way to an OIHID solution, you really need to call it OIHID, just for the purpose of fairness to other, non-powered-armor characters.

Unless every one of your players is a munchkin, in which case you should probably just play Battletech. whatever.

I'm going to cast my vote for powered armor = OIHID on the metagame grounds that otherwise, the potential for abuse is too great.

Heh... wait a second! I have a science hero who has eight different multiforms, each with signifigantly different powers, all bought through an OAF Immobile in his lab. Never mind, get as many points for it as you can. In fact, call it a Restrainable (-1/4) OIF (-1/2) and put everything into an EC.

Just don't try to get it past me if I'm GMing you!

Re: Status of My Mixed Power-Level Campaign

I think in the future' date=' I'm going to ditch the whole, no-empty-slot rule. If I get a team of 500 pt combat monsters, then fine. No significantly hard mysteries to solve. If I get a team of 200 pt detectives, LOTS of mysteries and few major combat challenges (i.e., no giant robots).[/quote']

 

 

With experienced players, this seems like a good way to go. Explain what the three kinds of characters should be capable of, respectively, send them off with their FREds, and then see what develops, and plot from there.

Re: Status of My Mixed Power-Level Campaign

This is presicely the thread I was hoping someone just happened to have handy and ready to go when I was thinking about mixed-point-level characters a little while ago. Please please keep us posted.

Well... not presicely; more like accurately. What I was really looking for was someone who was running a campaign with sexperienced players without specific point caps, but rather well-rounded characters, sort of like the Avengers or JLA. But this is goooooood. Happy to read along, fellas.

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

I really need to figure out what I'm going to say and put it all down in one post so I don't look like I'm pharming. I'm not trying to, I've just got ADHD when it comes to computer posting, or whatever it is.

You know, point totals can be very overrated. Certainly, Aquaman and the Flash can be built on similar numbers of points.

On paper, Flash looks to be much more effective for a number of reasons, including their relative Disads, and the fact the breathing water and talking to fish is usually kind of useless especially in comparison to superspeed.

In the comics, Aquaman is much better, since Flash is pretty much a dummy, and Arthur is just so cool.

Another comparison: How many more points do you think the original Ant-Man (Hank Pym) had than the new Ant-Man (Scott something)? Probably not a heck of a lot more, but he was far more effective, being a core member of the Avengers instead of a once-a-year guest star. In addition, on the topic of Ant-Man, I did some figuring, and I got his shrinking gas costed out to as low as 480 points, and no lower. It's a cool power, sure, but there's no way shrinking gas is more expensive than, say, a Green Lantern power ring or Thor's hammer.

The whole point-limit thing works pretty well for most concepts (especially newbie concepts), but you simply can't duplicate some effects on a "reasonable" number of points- i.e. the same number of points that it would cost to do something equally useful. You could build both Hank Pym and Superman on 1000 points, and you'd come pretty close to getting everything in for both of them... but you know my money's on Supes in a fight.

OTOH there are plenty of concepts that can be done well on 200-250 points- a mentallist, a gadgeteer or powersuit with scads of Lims, an acrobat-martial artist, a duplicator/multiform, a growth or shrinking hero.

I've run out of things I need to say and my point still escapes me

(scrolling up.... da da da elevator music.... da da da)

Ah yes. Even in a "350" campaign, GMs need to use their imaginations and see these characters without associated point totals, and certainly need to think about allowing experienced players to step farther afield point-wise than normally I think GMs are comfortable with. a 650-point character in a 350-point campaign does not necessarily spell doom for party balance, just like a cosmic VPP with an 80-point pool doesn't necessarily turn a character into ambulatory Limburgher. Even in the best-statted-out system ever, you have to look past the points.

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

One important thing to remember is that the first base, vehicle, or follower is pricey. All the rest are dirt cheap.

 

OTOH, boatloads of skills, perks, talents, martial arts, levels, etc, is extremely expensive, unless some of it is in the form of a VPP.

 

For the record, I tend to think that Batman has two VPPs. One an "omnicompetence superskill" VPP, which covers his extreme levels of skill in various fields. It would be used to cover his uberninja stealth, more extreme feats of deductive and detective skill, the classic Bat Intimidation, the more extreme martial arts tricks, stuff like that. Depending on how you set up the limits, it might also cover some amount of the afforementioned stuff, like his occasional ability to pull a Contact out of nowhere, though I'd be inclined to require most of the "normal" skills and such to be purchased outside it.

 

The second would be his utility belt gadget VPP. Cosmic, but with a relatively small AP limit, and some limitations representing that he doesn't really have unlimited ammo in there, and he doesn't carry all conceivable belt gadgets in it.

Batman's utility belt could be purchased cheaper as a multipower- my martial artist-detective has a 20-slot multipower, each slot with 40 active points maximum, for a real cost of 47 points. You don't get too much more cost-effective than that. A VPP with the same effectiveness was something like 67 points I think, but the last revision he went through was over six months ago.

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

Thor Silver Surfer and Superman arnt known for there wide ranging skills' date=' and there 1000pters. They barely demonstrate a skill level between them, there answer to problems is always "more power/hit them harder".[/quote']

 

 

You know, maybe that's why I find them boring. It didn't crystallize for me until I just read what you wrote. I can't stand any of those guys, and the Green Lanterns either. No wonder I'm biased against the heavy hitters of various superheroic worlds- they don't as a rule have the flexibility that comes from having to solve problems without their fists.

Re: Transform...Anything to Anything

Citizen Keen has it exactly. This isn't a transform at all, but rather a cosmic VPP. various Transforms can fit inside it, but it's not a simple Transform, no matter what advantages you put on it.

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

Just think how much cooler you rguy could be if you could give him a motorcycle and a glider and a speedboat and a space ship and some sort of underground network of moles and informants and friends in high places and some neat ancillary combat skills, like Defense Maneuver 1-4, and some overall levels (since he's such a badass at everything, after all), and maybe a little-known skill with learning new languages?

If you're just ramping up your attacks, you're going to be pretty boring.

Re: List of superhero gadgets

If you don't know what sorts of gadgets you would want to have in case of an emergency, then you're probably making a mistake using the VPP. Think of just a couple of items and put them into a multipower. When you have a sufficient number of them thunk up, then talk to your GM about shifting it to a VPP.

Also, after about a half of a normal adventure, you'll probably think of about seventeen things that you would like to have had. Try that.

Re: Ultimate Hibernation

McCoy's build seems reasonable, except that certainly this water bear can be destroyed by some method? You may have to hand-wave that part, but the rest of it seems elegant enough to make it worth it.

Re: He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

Sometimes, playing the wimpiest character on the team in a combat situation is fun, because you get to use your brain! Plus, your GM probably won't be building bad guys with your powers in mind, since someone else on the team can do most of what you can do, only better. That's why it's good to sneak in a couple of interesting cost-effective "utility-belt" powers, such as entangles or images. And don't forget talents- some talents outstrip their point cost better than some powers can, even with appropriate adders, advantages and limitations. Lightning Reflexes, Danger Sense, and Universal Translator will make your "wimp" an important character in a number of situations in and out of combat.

Re: Green Lantern

Here is another reasoned argument against GLs in superheroic adventure games:

http://www.javapadawan.com/calliope/mv41.html

Check it out now

Re: Super Speed Accelration

You could equalize her 15 dex with Lightning reflexes then shes a quick but combat un-savvy.

My speedster is like this. He's dex 23 with +10 lightning reflexes. It makes sense since he's sort of an idiot.

Re: Green Lantern

If you're looking for a short campaign that's an easy intro to Hero, I wouldn't recommend starting with a power level as high, and characters as insanely versatile, as the GLC.

Trying to create and run 1000 pt+ characters with an identical power source which includes VPPs, while ensuring each character has his own unique "flavour" is not, IMHO, a particularly easy way to start...

Righto, that's part of what I was trying to say. Let your players make up heroes to suit their own taste, and then put them on a government-sponsored superteam. Although it's pretty hackneyed as a team origin, it'll suit your need and purpose, giving them a clear code of conduct, person to report to, missions to fulfil, etc.

Re: CoH: Powers

CoH?

Re: Power Trick For Heat Vision

There's nothing wrong with building multipowers with naked advantages and things in each slot to tack onto a power you intend to make great use of, as long as point limits are taken into account. Transforms, various attack mods (AoE, AP, whatever), some skill levels if you can con your GM into them... it's a pretty handy tool for someone with one power they intend to rely on quite a bit. I imagine this is how Cyclops manages so many effects with essentially a single power.

Re: Green Lantern

Having your PCs become members of something akin to the GL Corps might be fun and exciting (kind of like any entity-sponsored superheroes for hire scheme), but making them Green Lanterns is probably not a good idea. The GL power ring is potentially limitless in versatility, and as powerful as its wearer's willpower- which basically makes it a race between your players to the highest Ego allowed, or whatever other parameter you set (I like pinecone's idea very much).

One of the great things about Champs, the thing that it has over many RPGs, is that each character essentially has his own unique "class". Making everyone a GL (or other kind of uniform powerset) takes away much of that flexibility. At some points in a comic book oir other superhero story, a writer may throw around many different "versions" of a hero's powerset to get him through various scrapes. This plot device is in great danger of being overused by a GL player. Put a ring on everyone, and you've multiplied the chance of this happening and reduced the characters' ability to differentiate themselves.

Furthermore, while it's interesting to see a great group of GLs from many sectors flying together in loose formation, it is significantly less so to see them blasting something in tandem, or whatever.

Re: Favorite Master Villain

Is this discussion limited to CU villains? Most of the great bad guys in my old campaign are originals or lifted from Marvel and DC, and some other comic book sources.

Re: Doctor Octopus?

Argh, I am so not buying G&G to get the arms.

Or more precisely, my wife will not let me buy it. Ah well.

Thank you though for all your help.