greypaladin_01

I also agree about the granularity aspect, but I also am in the camp that finds 3d30 to be unduly cumbersome and clunky.   

1 - It would be the ONLY place in HERO that does not use d6s  (d3 is the same and d6, lets be fair)

2 - It creates the need for players to buy specialty dice that do not come in any standard dice packs.  I don't even recall the last time I saw a d30 at any local game shops.  

3 - I have personal experience using just 1d30 back in houserules from the AD&D days... and they were HORRIBLE.   Dice the size of golf balls that roll and roll.... over half the time they would go right off the table and people would have to hunt them down.   The readable face is a little hard to identify given the size of the dice.    I shudder even trying to imagine keeping 3 of them active and controlled at table play.   (Sure this is just anecdotal... but this was a 3 year long game that played twice a month with average of 5-7 players... so not an inconsequential sample size.   And for the record, it NEVER really got much better as far as using them at table)

This is always the juggling act for HERO, allowing for common sense and special effects vs Did-You-Pay-For-It.  

Finding the balance between  "yes that makes sense"  and "no LS: Radiation does not make you immune to Rad Blast" is always a tricky one.   If you give TOO much leniency to Special Effects then points become almost meaningless, but if you are over strict on "did you buy it"  you end up with 2000 point characters where 1500 are spend just on Edge Case powers and abilities that might never see use in game.   Background and Knowledge skills also suffer from this issue I find.

Mechanically, I'm not sure I can help to much.   I am not super familiar with Mental Powers off the top of my head.   However I can help a little with guidelines.

As GM you need to decide what the upper limits of the Powers should be.   Also what the typical amount that NPCs might have in the world.   If everyone has 10d6 Mind Control and can talk people to jumping off bridges, then Mental Defense will likely be higher too... which negates out having so many dice.

If PCs are special and these powers are very rare then MD would be very low or non-existant and maybe only 6d6 is all you need.

But you should decide how much influence someone could at MAX have on another and what the average NPC stats for generic or 'named" characters are... that should give you a rough starting guideline.

From what I remember they were well done.  And while they might not all fit Greyhawk as written, you should be able to adjust them with minimal tweaks.

Since you are looking to heavily alter the standard rules, some of the changes to mental powers are just the new Base Rules: This Game.   As long as ALL the Social Combats work using these base rules then you don't need to worry about the points/limitations as much.   The important thing is that players can all understand how things work by default.

While adding more modifiers might be the way to go.  It is also something that you could just establish as -0 Limitations that are just the "ground rules" for how the system works.   As long as all mental powers are used in this manner, they are less game mechanic limits and more just the Rules of The Game.

This will also clarify to players how the abilities work ahead of time.

If I had to guess, the No Range is included mechanically is to simulate that you can only use the ability when speaking to those around you, instead of say 50m away like you could with normal Mental Powers.

I do not have my books at hand to look up the rules on Mental Powers but do you not also need to include a limitation for "must be able to speak / target must understand language" for these?   The whole thing is that you must be talking to convince/manipulate someone with this system.   You could perhaps even make a case that the powers need Extra Time modifiers since a proper speech usually takes more than a short sentence or two to sway someone.

5 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

I have been doing some reading because a feature of Greyhawk is the variety of non-human domains.  As such it is important to ensure there is decent guidance on the variety of peoples that comprise those domains.

 

Unlike a lot of other stuff though, I think Fantasy HERO has done all this work for me.  I don't think there is any real need to tweak the packages for the standard demi-humans.

 

My big ruling will be that, if you want to be an elf, or hobbit, or dwarf, you need to take the package and work from there.  That is the baseline.

 

My question is whether I present that as standard base character + elf package, or an elf base character with fewer discretionary points to spend.

 

I think HERO folk might prefer the former but, as a game, it looks better as the latter?

 

I was also wondering if there are any good package deals for humanoid types out there.  Would not want to stop folk playing orcs, goblins, giants, Griffin's or almost any intelligent creature.  A key feature of the system is it's flexibility and this does a run round of the inflexibility of D&D where you needed new races and classes and the balance (if there was any) would be in a big black box.

I'm not sure if they are still a thing but I remember in 4e Fantasy HERO they also had cultural packages.  They would fill gaps in for "raised by dwarves, but not dwarf" but also things like Backgrounds from 5e D&D.  "merchant, soldier"   Are you using things like those as well?

It certainly looks impressive, I'm sure they will all have a good time.   Also to add to the questions from @Cloppy Clip how are you handling combat size with your group?   I know when I have run champions in the past combats can take some time, and when running low level "standard" battles in 5e D&D they can go much faster by comparison.    Are the players staying interested in the combat or is it taking a long time and they drift some?

34 minutes ago, Cloppy Clip said:

It sometimes gets to the point where I figure that, if the rules worked one way in that edition and another in this one, and presumably people were happy enough playing both versions, then the game won't fall apart completely if I tweak a few things. I think the game's precision can sometimes be misleading, where people assume that the specific points costs for abilities mean that the ability must be worth that much, and not one point more or less. Actually, I think the game is much more flexible than it can sometimes appear to new players, and these slight changes through its lifetime are my proof of that.

I agree.  While there probably is an argument that could be made the some things are over/under priced for their effect per edition, I think that many of the changes stem from some type of obsessive need to codify everything. No matter how minor.

The best example I can think of was how Instant Change was just it's own thing up through 4th Edition costing 5/10 points depending on just how much you could alter your clothing.   However starting in 5th edition it was removed and instead turned into something like Transform: 1d6 (a dozen modifiers and advantages/limitations)  that made the cost result to something like 6/12.    Was there REALLY a need to complicate things to that level and was the 1-2 point increase that vital to 'balance'?

It has been stated elsewhere in the boards but campaign limits to things like DC and DEF are much more balancing than point costs overall.   In fact, you could probably grab a villain character sheet from as far bac as 3rd edition and just run them in a 6e game as is and it would usually function just fine.   Certainly the 4th edtion ones....   The same goes for PCs made in different editions, there is really only a very small grouping of abilities that had massive overhauls.

Those hex grids looks very cool.   What are they?

16 hours ago, Sketchpad said:

It's an interesting idea. Skills could be easy enough to implement in as an adder to the effects. You may want to use a Difficulty system, like needing 6 successes (aka BODY) to achieve a moderate action. Skills could add to this, or even add more dice into the check. So if you have a INT 15, rolling 3d6 for the roll, but also have Deduction 3, this may add 3 more dice in, rolling 6d6 when making Deduction checks. 

For the purpose of my initial draft, I will probably not go this far.  Although I do like the idea, it will take a lot more thought and testing to get it running.  

As far as a general function, it would probably work similiar to how the White Wolf success system did.   Although I am going going from memory off looking over those rules in the 90s.

For the moment I will likely focus on tweaks to the current skill system for ease of conversion, just changing things to additive format instead of the Number Or Less model right now.   But I do like the Count Body concept and plan to experiment more down the road with it.

27 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Introduced in FH for Fifth Edition, "New Talents" section, pp. 107-108. I don't have the Sixth Edition book(s), so can't say for certain whether, where, or how it appears there. But I'd be surprised if it's not there, and it shouldn't be substantially different.

Cool.   I'll have to dig my 5e copy out and look it over.  Thank you!

14 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

You're just forcing me to throw points away to remain even.  If you want to do this?  Make it a Physical Complication.  Characters NEED to make PER rolls, if someone wants that Blithering Idiot, well, it's a shtick that gets REALLY old, REALLY fast...most of the time it's not so much a point of characterization, but a power trip for the player, forcing the party to cater to him.  But if it's really legit, fine...take it as a complication that gives a couple extra points to that character, rather than force most players to spend points just to get back to even.  Or, allow Bad Vision:  -1 to Normal Sight PER.  -1 point.  Or whatever.  Figure what senses you want it to apply to, then figure out the total cost if you were giving +1...and that's the cost for -1.  Also:  I'd almost never allow this for touch or taste, and probably rarely for smell.  How often do those PER rolls crop up?  It's way too likely that this is pure min-maxing.

I would argue that it 'forces' throwing away points no more than 6th edition having removed Figured Characteristics are requiring them to be bought from a base level now.   Or separating out Offensive and Defensive Ego Combat Values and Standard Combat Values into different stats and requiring purchase of all four.

 Even in the Toolkitting chapters of HERO they discuss making Perception into stand alone statistic/skill.   Although at the moment I can't recall if that is from Core or the APG.

Your point on the Complication is valid though, but by no means incompatible with what I am discussing.

14 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

Be VERY, VERY careful of how you process fictional material.  Who says they're really all that smart?  Is it a failure to perceive, or a failure to interpret...those aren't necessarily the same, and I think, far more often, it's the latter.  If you want academic-smart, buy less of a baseline INT and something like It's also plot device, and almost always, IMO, grossly exaggerated.  

I would argue that the entire point of HERO is to simulation fictional material.  And each genre, and honestly each game, will focus on different elements in the genre that it wants to be the focus on.  

14 hours ago, unclevlad said:

If you want good INT skills but not-so-good PER, then buy a more moderate INT, and +1 with all INT skills.  Those levels do NOT apply to PER.  This can, sometimes, be a pain...because those levels also don't apply to background skills.  But, if that's the case, then use the "Inhibited Perception" notion from above.  

 

Yes this is a way to do it, but is again contrary to the general goals I am working on for streamlining the game.

That is the strength of HERO there is no "right" way to build things and both players and GMs have a lot of flexibility in the guidelines for character creation in a game.

On 5/15/2023 at 11:08 PM, LoneWolf said:

There is also a Talent in Fantasy Hero for turning undead.  It is just extra PRE vs undead, the talent also has an extension of the normal PRE attack chart where if you roll high enough the undead start taking damage.  For this to work all undead take the complication.  

Which edition of Fantasy Hero is this is?

On 5/17/2023 at 9:41 AM, Cloppy Clip said:

I suppose that's just the risk you run when switching between editions, where the exact point costs can shift about. At least it's not something like D&D, where it almost looks like you're playing a different game depending on the edition!

Very much the case.  Each edition seems to change costing on various things, I am sure as an attempt at balance, but then also tends to give big increases to the Character Points provided to characters... so I'm not sure if there really is a net change in the end.

15 hours ago, Joe Walsh said:

 

Interesting! What would the roll be for someone who didn't purchase the Skill?

 

 

 

I look forward to seeing your completed system! I've tinkered with changes to the mechanics over the years, but so far I haven't come up with anything worth adopting.

The way I see it is Perception would be treated as an Everyman skills.  So everyone gets it at the equivalent of the 8- for free, then if you purchase it goes up to 11- and then increased from there.   

 

14 hours ago, Cloppy Clip said:

 

Oh, I certainly went off the rails a bit there, and I agree you don't need to take things as far as that! That was mostly me spitballing ideas because I wanted to see how they turned out, and if anything would turn out useful to anyone that'd be an extra bonus. Your changes do sound interesting, though, so if you get anything pulled together I'd love to read them.

Thank you both!   I am taking the feed back from here and putting it and my other thoughts into some rough drafts for now.   Hopefully I'll have the early draft for review up sometime soon.

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I always figured one roll represented more time than a single phase of action, myself.  Its up to the GM to describe the give and take and struggles that take place.

I see it as dependent on the situation and level of drama needed.  Somethings can be simulated in 1 roll, and may or may not take extended time.

Other things like Grab Holds/Escapes can run for several phases in combat.     Or if you want to do something in a more dynamic way, then several contested rolls can work well for that, and help paint the story as it goes.

18 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Oh, I'd HATE!!! doing this in skill vs. skill contests.  First, what trained skills end up resulting in a skill contest?  Not many, and not often.  Take a case where A has concealed something, and B is searching for it.  This is not a skill contest as I think of it, but the rules do.  You roll A's Concealment, and use that as a modifier on B's roll.  See 6E1 57.

 

But these are very rare.  The most common would probably be grapple vs. escape...and that's counting BODY anyway.  IF you're using cyber combat, ok, Comp Programming vs. Comp Programming...in Matrix combat, very definitely contested checks.  Be careful here tho:  this commonly involves only one player.  From time to time, sure, it's cool, but it can *easily* be overused and become stale and boring.  

I agree.  This is not for Skill checks, I have a different tweak (just reworking of how the math formulas are displayed really) for those.  I am simply looking for changing up things when pure stat contests are in place.   Honestly I am struggling to really think beyond STR and DEX contests which others would even really have a need.  But this is part of why I feel some of the mechanics really could use a few look overs.

Champions/HERO is a rich and detailed system, that still operates on the same core mechanics from 1982ish era of the game.  There is certainly room for tweaks to streamline.

9 hours ago, Joe Walsh said:

 

How would you handle Perception rolls?

Currently I would be treating them as Skills not Characteristics checks.   However that is also because I am looking at de-coupling Perception from INT entirely and making it something along the lines of 11- equivalent base and then purchase it higher based on concept.   While I understand the baseline logic of INT/Perception, I can think of so many examples in fiction of "smart but unobservant" in fiction that I would rather treat it as it's own thing.

17 hours ago, Cloppy Clip said:

If it's all right to go a little off-topic, I'm interested by that mention of eliminating characteristic rolls, greypaladin_01, assuming you didn't just mean in the context of contests. If you want to strive for consistency in resolution mechanics, which I think is definitely a laudable goal (if not one HERO is necessarily concerned with as-written), then using the 'roll and count BODY' method for uncontested rolls would make sense.

 

I haven't gone through this thoroughly, so I'm just playing around here, but a target number-based system seems obvious. Roll as if the characteristic were STR, add up the BODY, and compare to a number based on the difficulty of the task. You could match the difficulty to the number of dice rolled by someone of the equivalent skill, so average difficulty would be 2+, as someone with an average characteristic of 10 would roll 2d6. This would let you benchmark higher or lower difficulties fairly quickly in-game, as you'd just have to imagine the rough level of character you'd see taking on each task.

 

You could even keep modifiers to the roll in for circumstances that affect performance by adding or subtracting dice. Although, thinking about it, it might be more elegant to work everything off the difficulty number, so you only have one axis to keep track of. It's a personal preference thing, like so much of this, I guess.

 

The main thing to watch out for would be RSR and Power rolls. The HERO skill system is fairly loose so you can tinker with it without too much trouble, but there's a lot more going on with the powers side of things, so you might need to keep an eye out for how changes to skill rolls affect powers that depend on them. Like I said, I haven't had a proper look at this, but crunching some quick numbers for 60 AP powers (so a -6 with the baseline rules) seems to indicate that a difficulty of 2 + 1 per 10 Active Points should get you similar results. But don't hold me to that!

 

Sorry if this isn't what you had in mind for your post, but it was an interesting idea to me (even if I don't use it in my own games), so thank you for giving me the chance to play around in this space.

Thank you for your input!   The draft I am working up does rework skills into a Difficulty Target Number style system with additive rolls for ease of flow.   Once I have it more fully fleshed out and some of these other points I mentioned up, I intend to post a thread for review and feedback.  

I am not expecting to be able to streamline HERO into a "one mechanic" system, nor do I want that.  I am simply looking to consolidate a few disparate systems together where I can and rework the flow of the math for some others to make it easier to teach newer players. 

Probably a big issue with spears, and polearms.. and pretty much anything not "sword" in most RPG games is that between fantasy tv, movies, books, video games and TTRPGs... the sword is pretty much always king.   And bow is runner up, ignoring all the reasons why crossbows took over in many ways.... not to mention how dangerous a proper sling was for trained users.

Trying to make each type of weapon different from each other I feel leads to greater variation than REALY matters... or should happen for table game.   Even the -1 OCV mentioned earlier for a spear seems to only be there to make it different.  If anything, it should only apply if someone is inside the 'threat range' of the spear... few games really seem to model range/reach well.

And while STR is often checking BODY for damage in the case of combat.  It is also used in the Roll BODY format when seeing if someone has escaped from a Grab.   As mentioned above, this makes for a more involved and interactive moment in play, as well as giving a more visible difference when having characters with different STR facing off.   

Other than STR contests for Grabs and DEX contests for initiative, I am trying to think of any other contested Core Stat use in the game.   PRE attacks have their own system which for gameplay speed will probably be left the same... it would be FAR too slow for each defender of a PRE attack have to roll their own opposed checks for resisting.   Can anyone else think of contested Stat use in HERO?

3 hours ago, DentArthurDent said:

I’ve started sneaking in “count the BODY” rolls in place of characteristic vs. characteristic rolls. There are noticeably more ties. Which leads to a lot more theatrical, nose to nose, sweat rolling down the face, never back down, confrontations. By the time we get to the third tie-breaker roll everyone is cheering on their teammate.

yes something much like this is what I was thinking.  Both to help make the contests more engaging for players, but also to help make Trained Skills (and skill contests) FEEL different from general Opposed Statistic checks.

 

3 hours ago, vindeishi said:

Aaron Allston's Strike Force, available in the Hero Games store, includes updated versions of the characters (if you want a comparison).

Thank you!  I'll check it out.

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

No, it came originally from Fantasy Hero, then was picked up in Champions III.  You had drain, which was recovery/turn and destroy which was recovery/month.  They didn't come up with the modifiers to change the delay between recovery until 4th edition, which negated destruction as a power.

Geez.  That sounds extremely rough... especially if time is the only means to recover.   Although I can see how it would make for a good Dark/Low Fantasy Hero element.

Part of my current side project is reading through older editions of HERO and reworking things to be easier for my newer generation players to understand.   In doing so I am refreshing my own memory on how HERO works... and one thing I noticed is there are SO many different systems for how different Statistics Checks work.   I am thinking over changing/streamlining some and would like to pick everyone's brains.  

There are 4 types of checks that I can find in the HERO system when dealing with Statistic oriented checks:

1 - Skill Rolls:  Not something I am dealing with in this post.

2- Characteristic Rolls: non-skill checks that resolve with skill like check using raw stats.   Examples:  DEX compared rolls for Initiative Ties, EGO rolls for Psych Lims or Shaking Mind Control

3 - Mental Stat Related Rolls:  Things like Mental Powers or PRE Attacks.  Resolved by rolling d6s and adding up the full total of dice and then comparing them to targets relavent stat for success level

4 - STR contests:  Such as Grab contests or Casual STR, Resolved by rolling d6s and only adding up the BODY pips then comparing for results.

There might be others that I have not come across again but it seems like alot of systems for teaching.   My GF even commented on it during a solo game about why STR has a roll for some things but Dice Contest for another.

Solutions/Discussions:   While there is a { if not broke, don't fix it} attitude that could be taken.  I feel that there is room here for tweaks that would reduce at least some of the systems for learning the game.   I would love to hear peoples thoughts on this matter but I have this half-baked idea so far that I am working on.
 

Characteristic Rolls:  I would like to remove these completely and replace with something similar to the STR contest system of BODY pip comparisons.    This would also help bring up this system beyond just damage.  I like games that have repeated systems, it helps to reinforce things for players.   At first I considered trying to work up something where it is adding the dice like how Mental Powers or PRE attacks work, but that feels like it would lead to TOO much variation even between matching dice.

Any thoughts on a system like this being implemented?   Other than being "different" can anyone spot any flaws with using this system to resolve Characteristic Contests?

So the equivalent of "Turn Resistance" from  later editions of D&D would just be something like  +10 PRE, only to resist Turn Undead PRE Attacks?