greypaladin_01

I would need to dig out my storage boxes, but pretty sure the couterstrike hero mechanic was from the Ninja Hero 4th edition stuff.   So any marital arts focused book from 4-6th should cover it.

11 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

I had a look, not uploaded any Fantasy HERO sheets.   I did the sheets on this link using PowerPoint, looking for ways to play Justice Inc, Danger International and Champions with sheets designed to highlight the genre rather than the distemper but giving players the information they need to play the game.

 

Have a look, would be pretty simple to do the same for Fantasy HERO characters.

 

I have never seen anything like this before.  I *think* I can see how the official info translates to the picture sheet.   I do think there is some definite potential as a tool to help people learn.   Was there an article or something talking about how to utilize these... or just something you made?

10 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 

Oh the mentality is very different, because there is no "Zero to (Super)Hero" progression. Fantasy Hero characters, like Champions characters don't become more powerful over time, but become more versatile.  I Always despair about people trying to emulate D&D mechanics, especially Vancian Magic in Fantasy Hero, when you really can match other literary or cultural magical traditions from other sources. Also without class distinctions, characters can differentiate on much finer degrees, not to mention making tuned custom racial packages.

 

Very much this is an issue for me.   I am aware of it and trying to flex my brain more, but I have 30+ years of Pulp Fantasy/D&D style power progression in my brain.  

It feels that for FH to work you need the GM to be thinking different, but also the players.   If they are trying for D&D it will have difficulties as well

12 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

I think that @LoneWolf is right.  A lot of your problem might be what you are focussing on. There are few differences in the numbers in many characters statistics and, if you are using the standard character sheet, then those numbers take up a lot of prime real estate on the character sheet (top left of the page).

 

I am a keen advocate of bespoke character sheets for play - which make it more likely that the sheet emphasises what is different between characters rather than all the things that are pretty much the same.  It can be a little bit of work to design a sheet but it pays off at the table (the provided sheet is a useful reference for building the character and may be needed for very specific point cost stuff that come up from time to time).

These are all very good points, and much of what I was looking for assistance in.   The mentality for Fantasy Hero is very different from D&D or Champions... perhaps more than I even realized.

I am not familiar with "Bespoke Character Sheets"  can you clarify?

7 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Keep in mind that Normal Characteristic Maxima are not a hard and fast limit, merely a boundary beyond which Characteristics cost more. A GM is also not obligated to apply them to his heroic-level characters. When you look at Conan or Tarzan or Doc Savage, they clearly exceed what even well-trained athletes are capable of. Because they're heroes.

 

For comparison purposes, note that in the Champions genre book for superhero gaming, it suggests limits above NCM for human characters, beyond which they should be considered "superhuman," and have some setting-appropriate justification for how they became so exceptional. For example, that book sets the upper limit for humanly-possible STR, DEX, CON, and BODY at 30, SPD at 7, and INT, EGO, and PRE at 50.

 

In a fantasy game there can be plenty of justifications for a character to have Characteristics beyond the Maxima: barbarian or feral upbringing, enchantment or enchanted items, nonhuman or divine blood, training in esoteric disciplines, exposure to mind-expanding secret knowledge, etc.

This is very true and there is nothing to stop a GM from changing them for races, or across the board.   However, doing away with them completely feels like it leads to Fantasy Champions more than Fantasy Hero.   Fun..but not what I am looking for.

Has anyone had experience with changing the maxima in play?   How did that work?

I do understand the bell curve for skill checks.  I know that all skill checks get a dizzying set of positive and negative modifiers, especially in the Heroic level, but that is a whole different set of issues.

What it sounds like you are saying though is to not worry so much about the statistics themselves because all the difference between characters will be focused more on Skills and Skill level purchases.   I can wrap my brain around that... although from a balancing standpoint, I question where the limits of this should normally end up.   It feels that it could very easily get out of control quickly.

Ok... very basic and likely silly question but something that I run into whenever I try to work with HERO in a non-supers capacity.  I am hoping that you all might have some insights to help me re-align my thinking.

With Champions, the statistics spread for characters tends to be a bit broader as well as having powers that help differentiate characters from each other fairly easily.   However, whenever I sit down to work at the Heroic level  (specifically trying to work on a fantasy hero game for a friend) I am finding that the characters tend to really look similar due to Normal Characteristics Maxima.   For example Stats in Heroic level HERO tend to fall into the 10-20 range...but mechanically there is very little difference between those.   (we are talking 11- vs 13- rolls and the like.   There is a math difference but not HUGE.)   Compared to something like D&D where between 10-20 in a stat gives between +0 to +5 modifiers.   

In my mind, this keeps feeling like a flaw... making the warrior, mage, archer and rogue tend to look VERY similar to each other.   I am hoping that there is something I am missing here.... a different perspective that will help make this feel more open than it currently does.


I have been trying on and off to get something FH going since the 4th edition days...specifically because I want something NOT D&D but still fantasy.   However my brain gets a bit stuck here and on not getting caught in D&D-think.   Sorry for the ranting question... hopefully people here can help break my Train of Thought out of this loop. 

For the longest time I only had the pack that came with the 4th Edition DM screen.  But those were SO helpful with my champions games... I used them for years.   Once HeroClix started to appear I transitioned over to a mix of Cardboard and Clix for use at the table.   Since then I found the full Modern Heroes pack but I have not cut them apart yet.   Sadly my Table gaming days are in decline for a long while now, most of what i do being online with things like discord chat.  But still have very found memories of these figures.

I appreciate the suggestion but no social medias for me sadly.  But still good to know there are ways to reach him.

I have always done something similar in my games and when teaching others to play.

(11+OCV) - 3d6 = DCV hit

People can adjust their math as needed and speeds things up a great deal.

Along with all my other projects, I am going to be doing a 1 player Kazei 5 game from time to time.   While the supplement and website have a great deal of info for major NPCs/Player examples there is not as much in the way of generic enemies.   Smalltime gang members, corpo security and the like.   I was hoping to avoid having to create all of that and so wanted to see if anyone had resources I could tap into for help.

Firefist was just the POV character in the comic portions of NM.  As far as I know he never got stats.. unless they were in one of the supplements.  Don't recall that.

Yes Code of the Hero is very much a 'classic' almost Silver Age concept that can adapt but comes from that era.

- Respect the Law and Legal Figures
- Do not hit women  (at least silver age)

- Tell the truth

- Do not hit someone when down

Stuff like that.

At the risk of pointing to another game (ick!)  All of D&D 4th edition is based off the PoL concept and the DMG1 would be a good starter resource to look over.   There have also been alot of DMGuild type products on it.

That being said my understanding of PoL  (which I do like)  is this:

1:  PCs are the stars of the show.  For the most part almost no one else is strong/brave/stupid enough to leave the safetly of the lights (towns/cities) and go out into the wilds.

2: Usually there was a large kingdom that fell and the PoL pockets of civilization are all that remains and travel between them is not easy or safe.   Usually far apart and monster filled between.

3: Lots of ruins and other adventure sights are all over the place but are avoided by general populace, but having rumors and legends about them would not be uncommon.

4:  as I said, PCs are the stars.  The few NPCs of power that exist do not leave their homes and venture out much.  You might have a power mage or captain of the guard, but they will not leave the city or tower to deal with the goblin raiders... even if you think they theoretically should.  That is why PCs exisit.

This is hardly complete but just some random thoughts based off what I think of right off when PoL comes up.   Hopefully it helps you get started.

On 6/15/2021 at 7:04 AM, theinfn8 said:

 

First an observation. There are many players that do not enjoy failing at something that is supposed to be their characters schtick. When shooting a fireball at an enemy, they want to know that they can rely on that ability, and wouldn't even take RSR if it wasn't required by the game rules. To them, failing that roll is "Not Fun". This same thing happens with people who don't want to miss in combat. To that player, missing in combat makes the game "Not Fun". There is nothing necessarily wrong with this mindset. It is simply a different way to play.

 

I posit, that if this is an issue in your game, then you might need to sit down with the players and have a discussion about tone, genre conventions, and what everyone expects out of the game.

As a tangential note to this, what if you just House-Ruled and changed what RSR does for the purposes of Magic?   Something I have been toying with (but not tested)  is basically setting up a Pass/Pass with Consequence setup for RSR magic rolls.   This way players don't have the double fail threat (passing RSR only to miss DCV and then watch Warrior just shoot a bow and only have 1 chance of failure with almost no points spent).  

Roughly the idea would be if you make your check spell works as intended and move forward,  if you fail the spell STILL works but would be at Half AP or perhaps x2 END or some other side effect.  It still keeps magic feeling reliable but  if you don't harness it properly then you will not have as good effect as you wanted.

Thank you everyone for you input!   I am glad to see I am not alone in thinking on this, and appreciate the shared brainpower to get me started!

Nice to know it is not just my neighbors that do the illegal fireworks.   Its been illegal for something like 10+ years...but 4th and New Years will have HOURS of the stuff going on.   At least with the 4th they only go between 9-11 at night.    New Years goes till 2am or longer.

3 hours ago, mallet said:

 

In that case maybe there is a cultural/societal shift that you can add to your game. 

 

In bigger cities and towns, maybe there is a "money exchange" at every entrance. When people enter and leave they can first stop by these exchanges and have their coins either changed in to smaller value coins for spending in town, but when leaving to travel, they can exchange their various small coins for fewer larger value coins that are easier to carry (and conceal).

This is something I was already thinking on, but more in the perview of nobles, banks and merchant caravans,  having it available for general travelers would not seem far fetched.  Plus there could be tax or conversion fees as well for outsiders.

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

The Field Guide covers some economics and pricing, but the upcoming Player and Master guides will cover that in more specific detail. 

Thank you!   Based on what Spence is saying then I will have to pick up a copy of the Field guide,  at the very least it should make for interesting reading.   I appreciate the help from everyone.   I know I can always count on this group for insight and direction!

2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

This one takes a bit of front-loading on your part, but if you really want it to work, then it should be worth it, as the research isnt too involved.

 

Look up the value of the various metals- copper, silver, gold, iron, steel- and figure the ratios between them.

 

Fudge them a bit until you have a working x ounces of A equals Y ounces of B kind of thing going.

 

You can then determine a coin size and figuure out the weight of coins in various metals, or (and this is just simpler, but its about how simulationist you want to go, really) just determine how many ounces are in a coin, keeping that weight consistent from coin to coin, and assuke the size of the coins varies with regard to the metal used.

 

Once You have the values of the metal, you need a set of multipliers.  Assume your base values are for ingots, or ore that has been refined to a useable purity.  Knock off fifteen percent to determine the value of raw ore (steel, obviously, has no raw ore, but consider the "ore" to be raw or cold_rolled low-grade, semi-pliable steel: the stff that needs a good forging to be useful for things that need to harder than wrought iron or rebar).

 

If you want to get deep into simulation, add ten or twelve percent to the value of any coin being spent in the territory where it was minted _or_ devalue "foreign" coins to that of ore value, since they will have to be collected by the authorites and restruck as proper coins of the realm.

 

Determine your multipliers for different types of metal goods:

 

Simple jewelry?  Metal value x 2, paying for the skill and labor that went into it,

 

Nice jewelry?  Metal used x 4.

 

Exquisite jewelry?  Metal x 10.

 

These are just numbers pulled from the air, mind you, and to get the feel of different economies or particularly desireable or common pieces will rate higher or lower than the listed multiplier.

 

It gets a bit more detailed with steel, but gain, your cost _starts_ with the amount of raw materials: the coin weight of the item, essentially, plus the weight of any material lost during crafting, etc.

 

From their your multipliers are determined by the amount of time spent crafting (total time: if it took ten men ten days, then it took 100 days), the amount of skill, the detail and ornateness, and any uniwue features such as "unearthly sharpness of edge" or "lighter than a schoolboy's thoughts" or even "super-easy to bless."

 

Which brings up the next point, more common with weapons than anything else in RPGs:

 

_everyone_ gets paid, and everyone has a orive requirment.  So you have figured out what the metal costs and the blacksmith charges; that's great.  But then there were the two monks who blessed the ore and started the ceremony to enchant the blade and the alchemists who provided the mysterious powders to fold into the white-hot steel, etc.

 

All of that costs, and those costs are not only added in to the cost of the item, but they are determined the same way: the church wants to be paid for their services, as does the local alchemical college.

 

And this is pretty much how an unregulated market works, really.  If your local municipality has special laws governing any of these things or even controlling the sale or manufacture or even just the final price, factor that in as well.

 

There is so much more than can be thrown into this, but the first part: metal value, ore value, cost multipliers, exchange rates- these should be enough to create the experience your playera arw looking for.

 

Just remind them when they start to realize that metal items are very much worth more than their weight in coins that this is the reason so many grouos kind of gloss over day-to-day finances.....

 

Hope something there helps!

 

 

 

Wow...  you are right that is ALOT of front loading.   Maybe a little more than I am able to do at this time, but I have a new pet project for that mythical 'free time' people talk about now  

There is a lot to unpack here but certainly some good nuggets to think about!  But yes, as someone that works in a production industry... there is a definite value to finished materials that is more than just the cost of raw components.   Really wish more customers could get that through their heads.

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

That's what I did for my campaign, copper is the base currency (with iron coins for pennies), and the breakdown of value the same way.  Most premodern cultures (and some modern ones) had a very wide dichotomy between the rich and the rest of the people, almost two economies.  Rich people dealt in the big coins, the rest (merchants, peasants etc) dealt in the smallest.  Rich people spent silver and gold, poor spent copper and sometimes might see a silver piece, using that system.

 

A straight conversion of Gold to Copper works fairly well for most fantasy material lists, but economies are fluid and reactive.

I had not considered doing sub-copper coinage, not sure if I want to do that or not but you seem to be very much on the wavelength I am thinking about and going for.   They players are going to be based in a Trade Hub town so I do want to have some price flux depending on if a caravan or ship has come through recently but focused on the base rates for now.

Allowing you a shameless plug, I see you have done a lot of Fantasy Hero supplements but I admit to not have purchased any so far.  Do any of the ones you have cover the pricing at all?   

3 hours ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

My current campaign (well, the notes for one, since I'm not playing right now) uses octal instead of decimal currency. There's also a, "great silver" coin (worth 8 smaller silver coins). The final wrinkle is that only the Imperial government can coin money using precious metals, so some nobles have created local currencies using base metals (iron, brass/bronze, or maybe lead).

That is not something I had considered as an option but I like it!   Definitily going to come up with some multi-value coins for use.  Seems like it would help with lower and mid-level business transactions as well.

8 hours ago, Steve said:

There is an article by Lewis Pulsipher in Dragon Magazine #74 entitled "A player character and his money..." that touches on this in one section of the article called "The silver standard." The article was mainly about ways to keep money flowing out of a character's hands, but it also had some ideas on managing currencies.

 

He suggests you leave the prices of goods and services as-is, but replace descriptions in treasure hoards with the word "silver" wherever it has "gold." When it comes to coin weight, he also suggests changing coins to the size and weight of a modern dime (35 grains/about 219 coins per pound). British half-pennies (new pence) were apparently pretty small. This makes silver the wealthy man's mode of exchange and gold a truly rare and wondrous thing. You also won't break your back carrying a personal fortune around or need magic bags or mules to carry a decent sum away from an adventure (or theft).

 

Your average longsword costing 15gp in D&D would now require 150sp to buy, which becomes a more proper value when characters are earning silver instead of gold on adventures. A sword was a treasure in and of itself in days past.

I'll have to dig through my old Dragons, but I don't think I have that one.  It would be a very simple system but still too coin intense for me.  Part of what I am looking to do is try and cut down on the idea of people carrying huge bags of coins all over.   But thank you!

I had considered doing something like this, but I also never really jived with pricing from D&D or Pathfider, they work ok enough for what they do but was not really the feel I was going for.  However I appreciate the suggestion!

Thank you for your input!   While I agree with you on the KISS philosophy, players have expressed as desire for a slightly more "simulation-ist" style game this time around.  So for that sake I am trying to get some type of pricing for shopping and life expenses so things can be zoomed in or out on the timeline.   If they have specific things they wish to do for a day then I need to have things covered for general life if they want to RP the night at the tavern or visiting the farmer market and the life.   Or enough to extrapolate multiple days costs on the fly if we are doing a time jump before the next 'event'

Hello all!   I am hoping to pick your collective brains for something I am working on.  I am sure much of what I need is out there or one of you amazing folks have already pondered.   So I am hoping for tips or directions to where to look further.

Finding treasure or at the very least "doing the job and getting paid" is pretty standard for most Fantasy Hero (and other) Campaigns, but I am looking for some help with trying to do something a little more Low Fantasy than D&D when it comes to pricing and payments.

I am trying to step away from the D&D gold piece standard and go more with Silver and Copper as the primary coin of the realm and people.   I figure Gold should be reserved for Guilds, Nobles and the like and not so much a barkeep or blacksmith.  But I also don't want to try and create everything from scratch.   I believe Fantasy Hero has a price sheet for weapons and some gear but I am hoping someone knows other places I can look for pre-made lists I can use as a baseline and adjust with minimal work.  To this end I was also thinking some thing a little different from the normal 10 coins = next step up and go with something like 10 Copper to 1 Silver but 100 Silver to 1 Gold or the like.

Goals:
1 - Most daily life purchase would be handled with copper or some silver.

2 - Trying for Low Fantasy so I don't plan for players to become insanely wealthy  ( no dragon hoards or the like)  But I do want them to earn payment that would be enough to live the high life for a week or so but then be getting low enough they need to find work again or risk going hungry.

3 - To this end I plan to track costs of food/lodging and the like as well.   I am not worrying about rules lawyering the system exactly, I trust my players enough to use their coins as per character needs/wants.

4 - Still thinking through what else I will need to think about.  I am open to suggestions

I will add support to secret IDs being very workable... with a caveat.   Superman / Clark Kent was never an issue for the world at large to me... only for the Daily Planet crew or people the regularly interacted with both identities.   In order for secret IDs to be compromised there has to be a causal link in peoples minds for the 'two' people.  

However, the concept that Lois Lane or Perry White can hang out with Clark and Superman and not "get it" is ridiculous, just as Spider-Man talking to Aunt May should have nearly instantly ended that whole mess.   VERY close people to you will not be fooled by a disguise or mask for more than the SHORTEST of time.  Within several minutes of extended contact or multiple short ones they will know.   However random person that was saved by Superman and then passes by Clark Kent at a diner later, will not even blink twice.

One more element on Secret IDs in comic books, the best defense for them is that most people wont even consider that the person might have another ID.   No one REALLY thinks that Superman puts on a suit and does a 9 to 5... they think he is all over the world at all times... or maybe chilling far away from people to unwind.   No one really thinks Batman is anything other than Batman...  at least not as far as the general public or even general criminals would think.  However if a character calls attention to their other idea existing then things might start to get more fuzzy.

Lastly,  Secret ID is a complication for champions, which means it WILL be an issue... that is why you get the points.   Now is when we are talking genre tropes at play.   If this was Retro-50s then Lois KNOWS Clark and Superman are the same...but can't manage to prove it... and that cat and mouse game is part of the points you are getting.    But in 70s style gaming the problems are more having to break your 3rd date in a row because you see a bank robbery happening or Amazing Man needs to be in Chicago because of the investigation but Johnny Normal has a report due by the end of the day.... what do you do?

Even by 70s secret IDs as we classically think of them were on the way out, especially in Marvel comics.   You had Spider-man sure, but Fantastic Four, X-Men and even Avengers either had public IDs or the IDs were never really an issue.   The 70s Avengers had people keeping IDs secret from each other even, but only might be an issue 1 comic out of every 20 at most... they were more focused on adventure and action.   So again, with Retro Gaming you need to decide what the most important focus elements should be and build around it... go more for the Flavor than the exact Recipe.

I have have very few issues with genre police and if anything I am the biggest one in my own games.   However over the years I got better at realizing that genre conventions are not a single set even for Bronze Age comics and even less so as you move to the 90s.

Retro game sounds very fun and yes looking at the comics for a look and feel is a good start.  But the look and feel varies more than just by decades.   For examples.... look at the 70s Fantastic Four stories vs 70s Dr. Strange stuff..... same decade but VERY different if you were going to run them as games.      I would suggest figuring out say... 3 examples of the era you like and then look what is common to create your own RetroGenre guide.     (second example... 1981 X-Men game would be VERY different from 1992 x-men game)

If the concern is wanting things to be as 'current & cool' as possible then I suggest 4A or 5 based on tone of the adventures.   Looking at modern superhero shows / films / games should be the benchmark and not comic books.   
 

I remember a sheet like that from the Big Blue Book era... might have come in the GM Screen.  Those were really helpful for group game for sure.

For the people that are doing more digital files for their notes and reference.   Have you found good ways of filing or sorting to make it quick to locate things later on?