Legendsmiths

I didn't finish, you could extend those same arguments to DCV, ultimately pricing it at 3pt per as well. Since players can't buy this, and it is set by creature type, this is okay (and not a cheap way to buy DCV). The net result: a "Size Modifier" that costs 6 pts per +/- 1 as a bonus/penalty to OCV/DCV. Giant (x2 size, 4m) = -2 Size Mod (OCV & DCV) Dog (x1/2 size, 1m) = +2 Size Mod (OCV & DCV) Any OCV penalties can then easily be bought off using Penalty Skill Levels (either by the creature, or by characters used to attacking smaller creatures).

Oh, growth is a different story since you don't use it to build large/small creatures (although it is a good reference).

We have all creatures pay for it, so it isn't part of a physical lim. If they are smaller, they have to buy DCV. If they are larger, it is a negative skill (-5 pts/-1). However, if you do that, then you have to either invoke a rule whereby the net penalty is an OCV modifier OR you have to pay for an equivalent OCV modifer that only applies in size based situations (i.e. not vs. Area Affect attacks). So, a dog (size DCV +2, OCV+2) and a giant (size DCV -2, OCV -2) attack each other. The dog is a net +4 to hit the giant, and the giant is a net -4 to hit the dog (OCV & DCV mods). However, if the giant attacks another giant (for attacking his pet pooch), the net attack roll is +0. Same goes if another dog attacks the first. Even a giant attacking a human would be -2 OCV because the human, relative to the giant, is about the size of a dog to the human. The unfortunate point side effect is that a dog costs more points (+20 pts, assuming a 'size based attack' +1 OCV = 5 pts) and the giant is cheaper (-20 pts). I suppose you could call the size OCV modifier a additional range penalty/bonus, although if that were the case, you wouldn't apply it until the targets were much larger. You could also add the height/size difference to range for calcualting a range mod, but then you couldn't have a static 'size mod' since you'd have to evaluate the relative sizes on a per attack basis. This is driven by the doubling of range = -2, as doe s the doubling of size. Fundamentally, they are the same thing. You are talking about the silhouette of the target. This means that CSL vs. Range can offset this penalty, meaning a large creature could buy Penalty Skill Levels to offset this penalty. 3pt/+1 would offset it with any attack, 2pts or 1 1/2 with limited attack groups. But assessing a -5/-1 OCV and offsetting it with all attacks at +3/+1 OCV seems odd. Perhaps the initial size OCV should only be -3/-1 OCV, which you could make an argument that size relative attacks are a 'tight group', or that since -5 pts per -1 OCV is the standard value, that a -1/2 lim of 'size relative modifier' is appropriate, which makes it about 3 pts. Whew! Lot's of brain vomit in there, and I hope I didn't get any on you.

Exactly. There are options in terms of cost. Is the DCV penalty (or bonus) associated with size something you pay for or a side effect of something else? If a human has a penalty to hit a mouse, why doesn't a giant have a penalty to hit a human? This is how the default rules play, and mechanically they work, but rationally they don't. Remember, rationality is relative. There is a note that creatures with the same size penalties should not assess them to each other, implying size penalty relativity, but this doesn't extend to the giant vs. the mouse, only mouse vs. mouse or giant vs. giant.

Is this for Fantasy or for other settings? as you may have guessed there are many ways to handle this depending on the genre.

It's on page 106 of the PDF FAQ. I had looked in the book and the html FAQ, but since it was far down in the FAQ I must have missed it. Sorry.

A 2d6 Transfer with AE affects all of the targets (say 4 in the area), but how many points does the transferer get? 4x2d6 or the maximum of 2d6? If he drains each an average of 7 points, does he then get 28?

Agreed. It's just easier to whip up a 50 pt thug than to whip up a 250pt thug when you are improvising.

Now THAT'S what I'm talkin' 'bout.

You are essentially running a fantasy supers game. Normals are inconsequential, and certainly not low-powered. I'm not talking about random thugs necessarily, but now a dock worker, or conspiring merchant don't have to be 150 pts to be a challenge. If a merchant is 150 pts, are their other 150 pt merchants? Doesn't that break the mold of normality? Hero can handle it, and I think it makes for a very satisfying game to have normals (25-70 pts) as adversaries. Then when you introduce a villain or demon or monster of 200-300 pts, things get crazy fun.

Thanks for the clarification. I wrestled with the racial disads question for a long time and then finaly was satisfied with having them not valued above and beyond the standard disad pool. The feel we are trying to go for is a grittier fantasy. Although still epic, we want the characters to feel closer to normal than not. I can't even imagine a 400 pt fantasy game.

I think your characterization that FH limits characters is way off. There is a lot of very useful material in there for running Fantasy games, even if you are running a "no holds barred" character set. We run 75 pts in a very serious game. What works is then normals are a realistic threat. A thug with a knife can't be ignored. When you are 150pts, 25 pt characters are mostly inconcequential, especially when you can't arm them with a blaster like a typical supers thug.

Shrike, what is your pt/level increment and where do you start?

Well I'm not sure I can help you with the setting issue (since we won't release our setting until after Turakian Age, although that should be out by Origins I'm sure). You are welcome to visit our site and maybe join the playtest. You sound like a member of our target audience, and we would love your input. http://www.narosia.com I also recommend Shrike's site. It's a great resource and he has a lot of outstanding material. A great place to start. I would say a 10th level character is about 165 points. I consider a 1st level character 75 points, and about 10pts per level.

Blocking is useful if you have a shield.

We run a tailored magic system ideal for low-powered campaigns. A 75 pt starting mage can have 10 spells or so, of moderate power. The mages are fairly balanced with non-mages, even at the 180 pt character level. We will be publishing it in our setting book (scheduled for GenCon release). The 75pt mages have been a lot of fun to play. The system supports improvisation, as well as rotes, maximizing player choice while minimizing Hero rules overhead. The goal is a magic system that is rich yet easy to play. I know that doesn't tell you a lot, but you are welcome to come to our site, register, and participate in playtesting once it starts.

I like to start my fantasy games at 25+50 points. That maps pretty well to realistic levels where the average person is 25 pts. I like to see my games evolve to 200+ points, and I award "healthy" experience (2-3 per session, plus a 0-3 point "kicker" for adventure completion based on how well they did). This moves players allong pretty well and keeps everyone growing, while keeping things at a semirealistic levels. I like my heroic characters to make sense in society. 150 pt starting characters are truely "Heroes", not fledglings. A 75 pt character is still challenged by 25pt thugs, which are of course easily justified. Once they get to 150 pts, the 25pt thugs still remain, but now have a different feel. One idea I have yet to do, because my group generally isn't interested in supers, is a 150 pt supers game. Few restrictions on powers, but the sole idea is that full powered supers exists, just on a lower scale. There's no problem with that growing to higher point levels, but I would almost do it on a 3 real months = +25 point basis. No incremental improvements.

That's more of an issue for group management. The situation shouldn't have to be rehashed on every person's phase. Out of session, say over email or something, just discuss the fact you want to have combat move faster. One of the ideas you'd like to float is that aside from critical status clarifications, everyone must declare their character's action in a short period of time, say 30 seconds. Let them know that as a GM you will impose a 5 second response if they are dragging things out. Many players become indecisive when they have no "sure thing" choice available. That is unfortunate, but no reason to slow the game down. They have to commit to an action as quickly as possible. You of course want to keep things friendly, but at the same time there is a responsibility to facilitate the game. If people are asking for a recap because things are moving slowly and they lost track, having people remain focused and committed to 30 sec phases is fair. Dice shortcuts are nice, and can help, especially with large numbers of dice. Alternatively, you could come up a chart that is 3d6 always, with xd6 normalized. Most of my campaigns are heroic. We don't use END (except for aborts & pushes). Mooks don't recover. Characters only recover END if they take a recovery (i.e. no post seg-12). I also have an excel sheet that I can enter in DEX and SPD of the characters, hit a button, and it builds a combat order. I then just read down the list so I don't have to call out phases.

One thing I didn't see mentioned about constant powers is that the reason you pay END per PHASE, meaning more END if you have high SPD, is because you can cause effect with the constant power on your PHASE. Say Inferno buys Incinerate - 6d6 EB, Continuous (6 END). Inferno has SPD 6. If he attacks and hits a target with Incinerate, he will do 6d6 damage on each of his PHASES, resulting in 6 applications of 6d6 damage per TURN. If he only had a SPD of 4, he would only do 4 applications of 6d6 per TURN. Now, turn that into AE: 6" radius. The Incinerate is now active on all segments, but Inferno still only causes damage on his PHASES except if someone enters the AE. As soon as they enter, they take damage, and then take damage as long as they are in the area., on each of Inferno's PHASES. So, that is why someone with a constant power and high SPD will pay more END... they get more effect. The rules are such that if you pay END, you get something for it, and so there is no chance of you not getting your END's worth. Hope this helps. Welcome aboard.

Heroic or Superheroic?

thx.

A character with a 1 DC continuous killing attack hits a target. He pays END for as long as he wants that target to take damage. On another phase, can he hit the target with the power again, paying effectively x2 END and then do 2x 1 DC cotinuous killing attacks?

Concealment can be used for finding things as well, although PER can substitute. Use the better of the 2 with the other being complimentary. I don't like rolling for complimentary skills (slows the game down). If someone has a complimentary skill (at 11-) I give them +1 to the primary skill, +1 per +2 skill after that (e.g. 15- in a complimentary skill is worth +3 to the primary skill). So, someone with a 14- PER and a 11- Concealment would be 15- to find something concealed, but only 11- to hide something.

What about Suppress, 0 END, Always On, Persistant, AE (possibly selective if he has some control)? The power you describe seems exactly that.

Well you definitely hit all the major universals. You left Savage Worlds, but that might not have enough detail for you. The setting I'm working on went through a lot of what you've already described. Hero is where we've landed. Another you could look at, that is very close to Hero is Action! and it is OGL, which is pretty sweet. Doesn't have a magic system or martial arts just yet, but they will get there I'm sure. UMA & UV. I don't think you need UV for what you are doing unless you want to get into Skyship combat. The rules in UV for "party control" of a vessel/combat are pretty nice. UMA is only needed if you are going to run a heavier martial arts game, especially if you want to make your own maneuvers. I like it, but you can certainly get enough out of the main book to tide you over. Windlings are easy. Give them 0-3 base STR, with a max of 5-8 (otherwise they get crazy). Buy their running down to 2-3" but give them: 12 points Winged Flight (6†Flight) ,0 END (+½), Restrainable (-½), May be increased/decreased at 2 pts per 1†They can then fly with perfect ease. If you think they get just as tired as someone walking, get rid of 0 END, or make it 1/2 END. Give them 5-8 Body (they are small). I think to handle the breadth of races in ED you should consider modifying characteristic maxima, otherwise, especially at high point levels, you end up with 20 STR windlings and that gets ugly fast. This is where you can represent their speed, but giving them a 5 or 6 max., offset of course by reduced Body, STR, and CON maxes. This means players can buy higher speeds but avoid the x2 cost for going over 4.