rravenwood

Does anyone know for sure if there was a Boxed Set version as well as a softcover version of Danger International?

I don't own one and I've never personally seen one myself, but the PDF at this link is a scan of a 1985 Hero Games holiday mailer, and it references a limited box set of Danger International which included the regular softcover book, the older Border Crossing adventure, the classic double-sided Hero Games street map with hex grids (the same one from the Champions box sets), a poster, three dice, and a free sample copy of Adventurers Club magazine.  It doesn't seem like this "Deluxe" set of DI was ever made available through normal retail channels.  Note that the order form on the next to last page of the PDF is identical to the one found in the DI book itself, except it has been further marked up to reflect what is being offered in the mailer.

To answer the question asked:

The concept of 8s in primary stats for average people is found all the way back in Espionage!, and carries through the heroic-level games of the time period (pre-4th edition; well, at least the ones I have handy: Justice Inc., Fantasy Hero, Danger International).  Champions 1st and 2nd editions just say that 10 is the "base value" (although Champions II presents a sample "normal" with all 10s, which tells us that 10 was seen as average), but 3rd edition Champions includes the reference to all 8s for average humans.  Hero System 4th edition mentions that "the average human has basic Characteristics of around 8-10", but the Sample Characters section presents someone with pretty much all 8s as "Incompetent" versus the "Normal" who has all 10s.

So, the idea goes back quite a ways in the history of the game, although it seemed to be intended for use with the non-superheroic side of things (its inclusion in the 3rd edition of Champions may have been an oversight, as the format of that edition of Champions was clearly modeled off the format used for Justice Inc., and portions of the text from JI seem to have been used as a starting point for the revised 3rd edition Champs text).

Of course, things having been done one way back in the day doesn't prevent anyone from doing things differently for their own game now!

 

 

3e is really 1er2 (combined content from Champions II and Champions III with 1er1)

 

 

Champions 3rd edition actually only incorporated a couple minor things from Champions III (how to resolve Flash attacks, and a clarification on how to apply the damage multiplier for Vulnerabilities being the ones that I made note of - there could be one or two others that I didn't catch).  Both Champions II and Champions III continued to be compatible with Champions 3e, and continued to be available for purchase along with that edition of the base game - neither supplement was made obsolete or redundant at that time.

3e changed Growth and Shrinking fairly substantially, and while there were a number of other relatively minor changes and clarifications, I'd say that aside from the size-changing Powers, the main difference between 2e and 3e was one of presentation.  3e followed the lead of Justice Inc. as far as how the rules were structured, providing a lot more in the way of explanation and guidance for new players at the start of the book (including presenting a sample character and directing the reader to go through the provided solo adventure to get an initial feel for the game).

going from 1st/2nd edition to 3rd edition is where we get some really exciting changes.

 

Sounds like a job for Super Flowcharter and his sidekick, Annotation Boy.

 

(I keep wanting to go back through all that old stuff and track the changes. Because I'm that kind of nerd, ya know. Maybe after I retire, I can write a scholarly work on the evolution of Hero System.)

I can relate because I've actually already gone through and made notes on the changes between 1st/2nd/3rd (at least what was noticeable to me - I probably missed some things here and there), but they're not in a presentable form as of yet - life keeps interrupting, as it is wont to do...

2nd edition also added the rule whereby you could only sell back one Figured Characteristic. 

Actually that rule is already in 1st edition (p.8, first column, right before the "Explanation of Characteristics" header).

Neither of those two villains were in the original Firebird version.  The only villains statted out there are Privateer, Second Hand Rose, Landau Lubber, Mr. Fogg, Herr Doktor, Shocktrooper, Veltro, and Shinyu.

[snip] in this specific case Fantasy Hero (1st edition) lists the Blast Effect at 5 points per die.

That was also assuming RSR, Concentrate (1/2 DCV), and Extra Time (1/2 Phase) for no cost break; to buy those off were a total of +1 in Advantages, so you were effectively looking at 10 points per d6.

Very true - even if the base cost per die was the same between FH and Champions, the default magic system assumptions in FH made it more expensive to have a FH spell that worked just like a Champions power, which is part of the whole pre/post 4th edition change in feel being discussed.

(For the sake of accuracy, though, in 1st edition FH, the Advantages Easy, Fast, and No Magic Roll are all x1/4 multipliers, making a total of x3/4 in Advantages [8.75 points per die] to make Blast work essentially the same as Champions' Energy Blast.)

Energy Blast was 5 points per die of damage in Champions, but the Blast power that you built spells with in Fantasy Hero was 3 points per die.

I quite agree with your overall point that there are definitely many examp[les of cost differences for similar Skills, Powers, Disads, etc. between Champions and the various pre-4th edition heroic games, but I just want to note that in this specific case Fantasy Hero (1st edition) lists the Blast Effect at 5 points per die.

For my part, what I remember most powerfully about Strike Force was how Aaron paralleled the events in the campaign world with what was happening in his game group in the real world. Every lesson he and they learned, every bit of advice he offered, was emphasized and illuminated by the context of his evolution as GM and his players as role-players.

 

As a corollary to that, the Strike Force world characters, PC and NPC, weren't static. They changed and evolved over time, as the experiences of the campaign shaped them. That made their world seem organic and alive, and the characters deep and rich.

 

On a practical level, much of what I found most useful from the book was its illustration of how to build and run a superhero team. Not just the designs of bases and vehicles; but organizing the members into sub-teams with similar powers and skills for specific missions; optimized battle tactics and code-words; a corps of specially-equipped support agents; interactions and relations with other heroes and groups. Some of these I'd never even seen in the source comics before, but once presented they made so much sense.

Lord Liaden expresses my thoughts on Strike Force better than anything I could have said myself.

EVerybody MUST - GET - STUNNED

(to the tune of Dylan's Everybody Must Get Stoned.)

This should be one of many installments of Schoolhouse Rock for Hero System!

Awesome, I've downloaded it now - thanks again!

I didn't want to drop the damage on weapons too much because a heavy bow or a longsword should be pretty lethal to a guy in his undies. I did make some changes to reflect the capapbilities of the weapons, and in a few cases STR min dropped, but on the whole weapons are not too different from what's in the various Hero books.

Is there any chance you might post/upload your modified weapons list, to have a better idea how it all fits together (with the other changes you made for armor & missile weapons)?

I must confess to squirreling away a good number of house rules and suggestions which you've posted here since I started reading these forums.  They largely seem both sensible and playable - I appreciate your sharing!

The original Enemies book (published 1981, then in a revised edition in 1982) contains Black Mamba and Cobra (I'm not sure if King Cobra is the same as Cobra - Cobra's real name is Dr. TImothy Blank, if that helps).  Boa Constrictor appeared in Adventurers Club #2 (the Winter 1983 issue).

Another option is to put restrictions on purchases that do nothing to price, so you simply impose a rule that a character cannot buy Take That You Fiend until they buy at least 10 points worth of novice blasts.  The problem with this is that its a penalty with no corresponding reduction in cost, which also violates a basic Hero concept.

But isn't that really just another form of campaign ground rule, similar to the GM saying that hit locations will be used, but not the bleeding rules?  Or, more to the point, it's like a GM disallowing use of a particular power, modifier, or power construct - yes, it limits a player's choices in character construction, but once the character is built and in play, there is no restriction to the character's abilities.

There is a little bit of material on this topic in the old 2nd-edtion Champions II supplement.  Look in the "Encounter Charts" section under "Natural Disasters".

Justice Inc was published around the same time as 2nd Edition Champions. It's around the same vintage as Espionage and has the exact production values as the other two games (2nd Ed Champions and Espionage). There wasn't a proper replacement for Justice Inc. until Pulp Hero was published near the end of the Hero System 5th Edition Revised period.

I realize this is probably being a bit pedantic, so apologies for that up front   I've recently finished re-reading both Espionage! and Justice Inc., and I have to say that the production values of JI far exceed those of either 2nd ed. Champions or Espionage!.  Champs 2E came out in 1982, Espionage! in 1983, and JI in 1984, and the evolution of Hero Games' design and presentation approach is clear to see.  JI is certainly a game of the 2E era, but I would consider it a proto-3rd edition game given not only its superior - although certainly not perfect - production values (by which I mean graphic design, layout, and editing), but also in the changes made to the presentation of the game, which foreshadow the approach taken in Champs 3E: Sample character presented early, solo (programmed) mini-adventure to give new players a quick feel for the game, improved game mechanic descriptions, etc.

I can't comment on how JI compares to Pulp Hero, but taken as a product of its time, Justice Inc. was definitely a favorable milestone for Hero Games.

One thing about chraxteristics for a 7 th.

Only values that have an effect ruleswise would be nice. Currently we increase str,... By single points each but for usage they are divided through 5 always

Admittedly a small detail, but up until 3rd edition, at least, the formula for calculating lifting capability was presented in the rules (25kg x 2^(STR/5)), so one could determine just how much more weight - for example - a STR 11 character could lift (about +15 kg).  Unless the STR chart in 6th has radically changed, I'd imagine there's no reason the old formula still couldn't be used.

I ran a couple "fight the robots" combats for my young kids, and tried to keep it very simple.  I wrote out a few stats for each to reference, such as CV (no need to differentiate between OCV & DCV for this early exposure), DEF (same thought re: PD/ED), MOVE (in inches - we played on a hex mat with Lego figures), dice of damage done (Normal damage), STUN, BODY, REC, and CON.  I think that was it.  I told them they could attack either hand-to-hand or at range, but the ranged attack did 1 less die of damage (to give them a reason beyond RMod to want to try HTH combat).  The robot opponents had only HTH attacks.  Not defining DEX or SPD, I assumed everyone had the same SPD (either 2 or 3, I don't remember which), and let the kids act first (going clockwise around the table like most board games).  I just ticked off phases on scratch paper and let them know when it was time for their "free recovery".  The robots, of course, never recovered, so that was easy to manage.

They handled it pretty well, and even figured out counting BODY pretty quickly.  The kindergardener certainly needed help with the math, but the older kids were just fine.  Not having played or run in a looooooong time, I misjudged the toughness of the robots, but the kids still - barely - prevailed.

I could see simplifying it even further, ignoring DEF, STUN, BODY, CON and REC, and instead just focussing on the Attack Roll mechanic, having the kids just track the number of hits they take (maybe with an Attack Roll being made by half counting as two hits or something) - once they reach whatever the determined threshold of hits is, they have to recover on their next action but after that are back in action.

Lots of possibilities, but I think focussing on a very small number of game mechanics at first is best, and then introducing new rules slowly over time.

Kind of in the same direction that Christopher is going, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Greek_and_Latin_roots_in_English I've found the following:

aut-, auto-    self, directed from within
ego-             self, I (first person)
sui-               self

sapi-, -sipi-   taste, wise

anim-            breath, life, spirit
ide-               idea, thought
log-               thought, word, speech
ment-            mind
phren-          diaphragm, mind
psych-          mind

simul-           imitating, feigning

Not sure if any of those work well together (autoide?  automent?), but they might spark an idea.

I noticed that Brick's base OCV is 7 though his dex is 17 which should make it 6. He has density increase and growth always on. Didnt back in the day growth gave you additional OCV?

Yep, +1 OCV in HTH combat per level of Growth.

Beyond what has already been mentioned, in 1st edition, the Characteristic Drain effect only lasts for 1 of the attacker's phases, but this duration may be extended +1 phase per +5 points.  In 2nd edition the return rate (of the renamed Power Drain) was changed to 1 Power Point per segment, with the option to delay the start of the return by +1 segment per +(2 x characteristic cost multiple) points (as already mentioned).

Since the last few posts here - mine included - are actually in regard to 2nd edition, it would probably be better to continue with any further 2nd-edition conversation over in the other thread specifically about 2nd edition

Just replied to the 1st edition thread as well. Wanted to note that this is the same 2nd edition that I mentioned there, and it does have a color cover. The grey-scale covers were in the boxed set that came out when they first released the revised (i.e., 2nd edition) rules.

I replied over there as well, but since the discussion has turned to 2nd edition, color covers, and 4th printing, any further replies should be made here to keep the threads on-topic

Just to summarize, Scott Baker has a color-cover version of 2nd edition that is a 4th printing.  Greywind has also mentioned that he has a copy of 2nd edition with a color-cover rulebook.  So, I'm wondering if the color-cover versions of 2nd edition were specific to the 4th printing, or had been introduced earlier.

I have a color-cover 2nd that came out of a box.

Greywind, is your version a 4th printing?

rravenwood: What you really need to do is look at the title page (inside the front cover), and look at the number of pages.

 

I just dug out my 2 color covers. They both have the Hero Games logo. However, one of them is 1st edition (Copyright 1981; 56 pages). The other is 2nd edition (Revised Edition Copyright 1982, Fourth Printing 1983; 80 pages). The 2nd edition one also has a speed chart and attack modifiers chart on the back cover instead of the rest of the Champions in the original cover art.

 

I'll be interested to see what you find out.

Just to be clear, I'm not confused about 1st edition versus 2nd edition and how to tell them apart .  My OP was about sharing my realization that there are two different printings of 1st edition out there, with slightly different covers, and also wondering if anyone out there had any more to tell about that particular "story".

Thank you, though, for mentioning that your 4th printing of 2nd edition has a color cover.  I've come across other mentions of color-cover 2nd edition rulebooks in various places across the Web, but I think your statement is the first one (at least that I recall) that isn't of the "I kinda sorta think..." type .