shaunclinton

Re: Ugh... must... become... tangible...!!! Just noticed the GM discretion thing under Always On, seems to cover it nicely!!! Cheers for the help guys!

Re: Spiderman vs... Batman vs. Cap and Spidey. Well, to me it comes out like this... Batman has better fighting skills. Batman has better gadgets (although web-shooters are awesome!) Batman might have the edge on Cap in terms of speed and agility, but it's too close to call in my opinion, even with Cap being post-human-max potentially. Batman is smarter than Caps, possibly smarter than Spidey, but that's a hard one to call as Spidey is supposed to be damn intelligent. I'd probably give it to Batman over-all as he's consistently portrayed as really smart. Batman is more tactically aware than Spidey, despite Spidey's phenomenal experience. With Cap it's close but I might give the edge to Batman. Caps and Spidey are both stronger, Spidey considerably. Caps and Spidey are both tougher than Batman. Caps and Spidey are both possessed of more endurance. Spidey whips Batman in terms of speed and agility. He also is able to dodge most of Batman's attacks. All three have willpower in spades. Batman is probably the most driven of the three, but Cap and Spidey have both been shown to have phenomenal will, allowing them to fight on in impossible circumstances. I have to analyse the above information and conclude as follows... Batman vs. Captain America: Batman win 58% Captain America win 40% Tied contest 2% Batman vs. Spider-man: Batman win 22% Spider-man win 75% Tied contest 3%

Re: Ugh... must... become... tangible...!!! I like the variable limitation route as it's more in keeping with the rules. Hmmm... let me think. Doesn't work for the END though, so I'd probably opt for using a combination of that and the naked advantage stuff. Cheers guys.

Re: Spiderman vs... Actually, Spidey is one of the few characters I wouldn't hand victory to Batman right away against. The reason why Spidey can hold his own against almost anyone??? Spider Sense + Amazing Agility! It really is a get out clause against almost any opponent. And when the writer (if indeed that is your real occupation!) conveniently forgets about that combo it really cheeses me off. I just read the Bendis 'New Avengers' thing and the Spidey broken-arm was just rotten. Shouldn't have happened, I can't even think why it happened other than to show that Spidey needs to be a team-player (which he doesn't really) in this new set-up. Bendis is getting mixed up somewhere! Good writers have Spidey in mid-air thinking things like 'Spider-sense warned me but can't change direction in time' or Spidey ignoring his Spider-sense and taking a pasting because he's busy saving someone. And occasionally a foe gets the better of him just because he's dangerous!!! Bendis obviously wasn't a great fan of Spider-sense because it hardly ever comes up in any useful capacity in Ultimate Spidey, and so he just left it out. Also, Spidey's STR is often under-rated. I think everyone agrees that it's somewhere in the 40-45 range (I'd go with 43 myself!) but what everyone forgets is that he's got the biggest push outside of the Hulk!!! He's gotta have another 20-25 points at ENDx5 or 10 with the limitation 'Must Think of MJ or Aunt May or Uncle Ben'! All in all the Spidey package isn't to be underestimated. And he'd beat Cap.

Re: Iron Meat I like that. I was thinking of something like that... I'd probably opt for more than 1 charge, and the Burnout is something I'd consider for sure... although what I might do is have a roll on it as multiple uses would certainly be more representative of burning through the batteries. Whilst on the subject, has anyone come up with a satisfactory way to create force fields in Champions that reduce in energy as they're blasted without resorting to the clunky ablative limitation? Or in a related vein, an effective correlation between damage taken (or protected from) and negative impact on END?

Re: Marvel Universe trivia Well, last time I checked I thought the Skull was destroyed in a beam of anti-matter alongside the physical form of the cosmic cube? No? Well, if I'm right then surely the Skull's conscience could have merged with some of the energy of the cube thus recreating himself as... The Cosmic Skull!!! Anyway, Cap always seems to fight cosmically powered Red Skulls, so why not reverse the roles and have regular ol' Red Skull fight Cosmic Cap? We all know plain old human ingenuity and determination defeats these lazy ass all-powerful types every time, don't we?

Howdy. I'm planning on designing a character who is, hmmm, somewhere between The Spectre and Dr. Fate in terms of 'how' his powers are configured, if not in terms of actual power level. Things I want... a) When not in Hero ID, or when deprived of his mystical helmet/robe/ankh (haven't decided which yet) he is intangible, always on. When he absolutely must he can become tangible for very brief periods but it should be a draining END intensive experience. I see two ways to achieve this... 1) Some kind of construct along these lines... Desolid 40 active points, 0 END Persistent (+1), Always On (-1/2, Costs END to deactivate (-1/2)) = 62 Real Points Which is clunky, not how the rules are really intended and also costs a heck of a lot. 2) Or this way, which is nicer but a real points drain... Desolid 40 active points, 0 END Persistent (+1) Susc.: Being Solid, 2d6 END Drain per Turn Any other suggestions that aren't too outlandish??? I'd also like his equipment to be able to be handled by desolid individuals and also to interact with them as normal. Should I just buy it all with the Affects Desolid advantage or is this a special effect?

Howdy, I'm reckoning on building a character for a new campaign based on the Ultimate Iron-Man. But a few things occur to me. It seems like a really tricky to master build as you want him to be able to perform phenomenal feats but also to have a fairly limited power supply. Obviously in a comic his power can run out whenever dramatically appropriate, whilst in game if he doesn't have much it could crap out at horribly inconvenient times. I'm thinking of a 90 active point multipower, with the regular slots using up some 60 points or so, and the remaining points being in there for optional add on slots with increased END costs and the like. So for example... 1) Repulsors: 12d6 EB, 60 Active Points 2) Repulsor Over-drive: +6d6 EB, x5 END, 30 Active Points Do you think such a construct is totally legal? I'd plan on putting most things in here... Neural Scrambler, Force Field, etc. What other tricks have we seen Stark pull off in Ultimates? Probably greatly enhanced Str, plenty of flight. Any other ideas?

Re: Spiderman vs... Yeah, basically Spidey was fighting some Gamma-irradiated guy who was super-strong, super-tough et al. So he came up with a way to beat him based on some ideas he'd had about the Hulk. So Pete's explaining it to MJ and he's saying how Hulk has to replenish the gamma-energy in his blood yadda-yadda-yadda and how this guy has no off-mode (ie. Banner) and so Pete can beat him by dodging about and tiring him out... and then MJ asks if Peter could beat the Hulk in a fight or if he's thought about it or something. So he says sure, I've thought about it, these things come up... he could do it, but not without killing him. However, I'm fairly sure that the Hulk's endurance levels are ridiculous and that you couldn't 'tire him to death', so I'm sure there's supposed to be more to it than that. The notion is frankly a little ludicrous. I suppose, in Champions terms, if you made Hulk real mad he'd get stronger and stronger, and so long as you kept out of his way he tire easier (as he's using more END) but you'd think the Hulk's END and REC would be phenomenal. Exactly how long can Spidey keep this dance up for?

...Anyone!!! Who do you think pushes the limits of Spiderman? Spidey vs. X-men? Spidey vs. Fantastic Four? Spidey vs. The Avengers? Okay, so probably not so much on the last one!!! I'm curious as to what you all think as it has at various points been suggested that Spidey could handle the X-men (depending on roster, certainly the original one) and probably could take the FF!!! Other novel suggestions include the Strazinikisinkintiszi Spidey asserting that he could "beat the Hulk, but not without killing him" which is bizarre! Any thoughts?

Re: Favorite Superhero Lines I love super-hero lines!!!! Here are a few of my faves... starting with the obvious ones... Batman: Year One and DKR (paraphrasing) "She knows Karate... but only Karate." "There are 7 working defences from this position. 3 of them kill. 3 of them disarm with minimal contact. One of them... hurts!" "It was hard word carrying 200lbs of psychopath to the top of Gotham's highest building. The scream alone was worth it." Alfred: "Sir, why did you disable the weapons system?" Batman: "Can't have a back door, might be tempted to use it." In fact virtually every line in that book is amazing!!!! So I'll stop quoting it! Go read it instead!!! DC Mega-Crossovers: Wonder-Woman (of the 850th century): "That's Superman, OUR Superman, he's trying to punch his way through time to rescure the Justice League in the 850th century." Superman (of the 850th century): "I'll cement your plasma bottle with my force vision. But my concentration must remain on it, so it's up to your Superman to race the kryptonite bullet and stop the assassination of his future self." Parallax (when the Spectre shows up in Zero Hour): "So you want big? I can do big!" Green Lantern: "You can't ask me to trigger a supernova and then contain it by sheer force of will!" Batman: "The ring does do whatever you think? Trust me Green Lantern, and think big." JLA: Protex: "Batman! Batman! He's just a man!!!" Superman (under his breath): "The most... uh... dangerous man on earth." Martians: "What's that smell?" Martians: (Surrounding Batman who has a match) "Are you going to stop us with that?" Batman: (Dropping match into surrounding gasoline) "Hhh." Aztek: "My suit's powered by a four dimensional battery. The only thing stopping that energy being unleashed here with a force greater than any weapon known to man is a little fader switch on my belt. Can you guess what I've just done?" Prometheus: (Okay, not a hero!) "This disc contains the skills and abilities of 30 of the worlds greatest martial artists." Batman: (Smiling) "Hhh." Prometheus: "I don't know why your smiling. One of them is you." Connor: (to Kyle) "I'm just a kid with a bow... what am I meant to do against someone like... I dunno, Darkseid." Connor: (in the future facing off against Darkseid, having just fired the Atom on the back of a flare arrow through Darkseid's forcefield and into his brain) "He's in your brain you big ugly moron!!!" Aztek: (Talking about disarming nuclear weapons on the Watchtower) "I had it down to 36 seconds by the last one." J'onn: (Talking to girl with mind control powers, who stretched GL's will to breaking point) "You powers are of no use against a telepath with my mental shielding..." (and as she turns to Batman) "...and you'll find they are wasted on him." Superman: (Almost beaten by Silver Banshee, Master Jailer, Bizarro and some other guy) "Remember you friend Nuclon (or whatever! The living nuclear bomb guy)? Well I just used the last of my heat vision to nudge him out of orbit and on a direct collision course." (Cue prompt exit by aforementioned villains!) Spiderman: Hobgoblin: (About to strike the killing blow on a dazed and spider-senseless Spidey, he misses) "But... you could never have avoided that blow without your... your..." Spidey: "C'mon blinky... say the magic word!!! Spider-sense!" Mary Jane: (The middle of the night, Moon Knight has just called) "Not more Spidey action..." Peter: "You weren't complaining about the Spidey-action you were getting a minute ago!" Ultimate Secret: Reed and Sue Richards are talking about why there aren't many intelligent communication capable species left in the galaxy, he's come to the conclusion the something wipes them out just at the critical point... Reed: "Well, I suppose it could be the Chitauri. But come on, the Ultimates could beat the Lords of the Universe but they couldn't stop the Hulk from destroying Manhattan?"

Re: Quote of the Week from my gaming group... Towards the end of a Fantasy scenario where the players have been facing off against the undead minions of a Liche, all the time being forced back, until eventually they rally some troops and decide to make a final stand. They manage to repulse the enemy attack and so the Liche himself make his entrance to finish off these meddlesome foes... GM (Me): "As the thundering of hooves comes closer through the cold mist a stillness hangs across the field of battle for a moment... then suddenly a twisted chariot of fused bone drawn by skeletal horses bursts forth through the veil, the charioteer is a dread figure, skeletal and rotting, like a zombie with burning eyes dressed in dark robes covered in arcane symbols and weilding a black blade that drips with foul ichor." Steve: (with genuine shock on his face) "What? Who killed him!?!?" We later found out he thought a Liche was just a good necromancer!

Re: Batman vs Midnighter Personally I thought Regis (big blue guy in Authority) beat the snot out of Midnighter because the non-log-floggin' hero couldn't actually hurt him. Also, I second the sheer ineptitude of Midnighter's opposition. Who of note has he actually defeated? Regis, butt kicked. Seth, butt kicked. Seth, butt kicked again. He only ever beats up on rent-a-goons and no-name supers... and I class the replacement Authority in the no-name-super category. Didn't Lobo hand him his ass?

Re: Could your Champions character beat... Obsidian: Singularity powered being constructed of mutable alien metal, built on 500 more points than Cap and not that much of a contest. Cap could delay him for a while using the shield and dodging about, but he can't hurt Obsidian and his find weakness is at -10, so not much chance of that. Obsidian eventually makes the shield too heavy to use or resorts to AE gravity attacks... or just increases his density to the point where even the shield can't really protect Cap. Jack Hudson: Sitting at around 550 points this is a fairer fight. He's slightly better all round than Cap sans shield, with the shield Cap has a clear edge. Jack would have to get creative and probably get rid of the shield to have a chance. The fact that it's an OIF makes things tough, but if an opportunity arose he'd take it. If Cap loses the shield he probably gets beat. I'd give Jack about a 20% chance against Cap. Payback: Mutant who absorbs kinetic energy to make himself stronger and faster. Slightly less powerful than Jack Hudson and probably doesn't have the means to split Cap from his shield, thus he gets pasted despite his strength being quickly increased to well past Caps. I'd give him 2% chance. Spiderman: More based on the 2099 version, he's got the edge in terms of raw stats on Cap, but again comes down to the Shield. Webbing could certainly prevent Cap using his shield if he can hit with them. This fight probably goes on for some time as both are maneuverable, hard to hit/hurt (respectively) and don't tire easily. I probably rate this as close to 50/50 as it gets and if you pushed me for a winner I'd go with Spidey. Marksman: Dark-champs guy built on 400 points. Unless he's a couple of klicks away with his trademark rifle I've gotta give this one to Cap. The Executioner: Think Dark-champs Hulk with Axes, strong, tough and great in a fight. Cap would thrash him all day long.

Anyone got a particular take on the Ultimates universe and how it differs from the Marvel one? As far as I can tell it's supposed to be 'grittier' and maybe more 'realistic' (although that's maybe went off the beaten track!) with more consistent and plausible (hah!) reasons for supers? Obviously there's also the contemporary setting too. Anyone run Champions games in the Ultimate universe or equivalent thereoff? I was also wondering if the Ultimate Hulk made his appearance prior to Ultimates 1, as Banner has clearly already been the Hulk by this point and destroyed Chelsea Piers... was this in a prior story arc in one of the other Ultimate books or was it simply supposed to have happened 'off camera'? Seems like an important event to simply be off screen. Finally, what's everyones take on Ultimate power levels compared to normal Marvel Universe power levels. I've only read the Ultimates series and the Ultimate Spiderman stuff, from these I've concluded the following... Ultimates less powerful than normal MU: Thor, Iron Man (maybe more powerful, but only for a minute till he runs out of power), Giant Man, Spiderman, Hawkeye, Hulk (perhaps subject to change now though) Ultimates more powerful than normal MU: Captain America. I don't really know enough about Black Widow to judge and I'm not really too keen on getting into villains and the like as well. Do these guys have a hard-on for good ol' Cap or what?

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill? When everyone is talking about killing the Joker, should they not perhaps keep in mind the fact that the man is insane? If he could be cured then he'd stop killing everyone, no doubt this lets Batman get some bat-sleep in his bat-bed in the mornings. On a slightly different topic, why is every hero and villain (especially villains) sh*t scared of the Joker? Sure, he's nuts, and unpredictable, and dangerous... but he's weak as a kitten compared to most!!! It just never rang very true for me! In fact, about the only villain who doesn't seem scared of him is Lex Luthor, who is one of the few who would have reason to be!

Re: Batman vs Midnighter Speaking from the point of view of someone who's read everything featuring Midnighter, and who has read the Bat-titles and JLA for the past 15 years a few things seem wrong here to me. First up, JLA Batman has to be used here, as he's the character Midnighter is based on, and thus the one that is suitable for a fight. Secondly, the Authority isn't as powerful as some people make them out to be here. Especially not Midnighter, who can't do much damage to any real bricks. The X-men rip offs don't really count as they suffer from the total-lack-of-resistant defences that all Authority villains have (or are we to believe Teuton [and thus, presumably, Apollo] could be killed by a drill/nailgun/whatever it was to the back of the head?) Midnighter could not hurt Superman, Jonn or Wonder Woman without Kryptonite, Matches or... well, whatever you use!!! In a straight JLA/Authority fight the JLA win most times, excepting creative actions on the part of The Doctor and The Engineer. And of course, Jenny Quantum! Third. Midnighter isn't completely infallible, nor invincible. His enhancements cannot read minds, that's a fact. He is fast, but does not possess much in the way of Speedster abilities. He is strong, but despite his strength's seeming changeability, it never reaches brick like levels. Fourth. Batman's utiltiy belt contains a lot of useful gear for this scenario. Midnighter is certainly a master of up close and personal fighting, but batarangs, nerve gas and the like go a long way towards evening the odds. I reckon that in the initial encounter Batman takes a bit of a punishing beating, but escapes with his life (for those wondering how, I'm sure a guy who can hide from Superman won't have any problems with Midnighter) plans a bit and returns to defeat Midnighter using ranged attacks and/or by disabling his enhancements. I'm no doubt sure if there was a third contest Midnighter would somehow swing it and so on ad infinitum.

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..." Hmmm, I won't weigh in on the Thor killing Hulk and Thing issue. I'd just go into meltdown. Whatever next, will we have Punisher kills the Marvel Universe taken as fact? Anyway... Most of what you have to say is pretty reasonable Champsguy, but I do dispute the hammer taking the Hulk down one-shot. Wouldn't mind a story reference for this as I'm sure there must be mitigating circumstances. As for The Kingdom, I dug it out this afternoon and there isn't any one-shotting, although two-shotting Superman is mighty bloody impressive!!! However... I was thinking about the original idea of this thread, which is basically talking about whether or not Supes is vulnerable somehow to hits from Mjolnir. This got me thinking about all the times I've ever seen Supes take damage from mystical opponents and raises a possible point. Supes is clearly vulnerable to transformative/manipulative magics, he's often affected by them. Magical beings with claws, fangs, pointy magic blades, magic fire, etc. seem to have little or no difficulty cutting him/harming him. But in all the examples I can think of, I can never recall one were bludgeoning damage from a magical source was shown to have any additional effect on him. This suggests that whilst he may not have much (or any) resistant defences against magic, he probably still has oodles of normal defence. Only two examples infer some effect along these lines, both are fairly ambiguous. The first is when Captain Marvel sucker-punches him a couple of times to put him down, followed by the quip "I got lucky and he's vulnerable to magic" or words to that effect. Is Supes vulnerable to Marvel's punches or is he just being modest? Most likely two punches at x2 STUN for surprise from Marvel would be enough to drop almost anyone, especially if he "got lucky". The second is in the Elseworlds Legend's of the Worlds Finest when the demonically enhanced Manbat is "crushing his windpipe" - however I should point out that his power has been increased to the point where it looks like he is doing it through raw STR and not via any kind of vulnerability. I can't think of any other examples of 'normal' damage magical attacks having any increased effect on him and he seems to trade blows with mystical foes fairly well. Which could well mean that the entire debate as to Mjolnir - enchanted weapon or magically constructed weapon is somewhat irrelevant! Thoughts? Anyone else think of any examples?

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..." First up, David Blue. Superman's Vulnerability to Magic. It is a bit of a thorny one and I've half built or quarter built Superman a few times in Champions and tend to go for something like this (though I must admit that usually I have his defence vary based on his Solar END Reserve, but I'll just go with him at 'normal' levels) When building his defences I tend to give him either 75% or 50% damage reduction. If I give him 75% I usually limit the last increase so that it only applies at 50% against the likes of magic, whilst in the 50% build I'd let him have it at full against it. I also tend to give him enough doubly hardened resistant DEF to stand up to most earthly weapons easily (Howitzers, Mortars, Missiles, etc.) which I'd say has to be in about the 25-40 point range in most cases. I tend to make his ED lower than his PD by a bit (say 30 and 40 respectively) as he looks more easily fazed by energy weapons in general. I'd give about 3/4 of this DEF the Not vs. magical attacks limitation and would give ALL of the Hardening the same limitation. It's then essential to give him some more PD and ED. This is the thorny part though as Supes shouldn't really take any STUN from convential weapons, but depending on how you play it's 'possible' for a lucky headshot from a rifle to do of the order of 90+ STUN (2d6+1 RKA, +2 STUN Multiple) whereas most STR 100 characters from the DCU should be able to harm Supes with most punches, which will only average 70 STUN. The best fix for this is probably some sort of house-rule about taking STUN from attacks whose BODY has no chance of penetrating (although how many attacks do penetrate against the Man of Steel) which I believe many people here use. The way that's probably most appropriate within the rules is to buy maybe an extra 10 or 20 PD and ED for everyday use and then to buy a further 30 points which only protect against 'conventional' damage (ie. falling, getting shot by real guns, etc.) and only affect STUN. I think there are a lot of other factors that come into play here though. Too many to accurately model his defences properly in a game system. One of my favourite things to do is to give him a Solar END reserve that gets eaten into as he uses powers and as he takes damage. As his END reserve drops below certain levels his powers reduce accordingly, but still allow for the possibility of using that END faster to use powers one-off at the higher level with x10 END multiples and the like. As his defences drop off he can be hurt more and more (although damage reduction should stay till near the end.) Anyway, I'm warbling off topic here. Back to it then! Champsguy: I've read the Kingdom, it's been a while but... Gog DOES NOT one punch Superman at any point. The best he does is, to my recollection, blast Supes once (through Mr Mztptlk I must admit) and then finish him off with a second blast. Even when he shows up at the birth he gets a free surprise blast in Superman's back and still only stuns him. An off-hand display of the same staffs power annihalates at least one Amazon and injures (at least) a few more. It's never made explicit exactly what sort of power the staff possesses other than that of "dozens of Red Suns" or somesuch. But based on Gog's origins it's fair to say it could be considered as mystical as Mjolnir. Gog also had power on a scale that Thor does not possess (though I'm quite sure if they met there'd be plenty of "I say thee NAY!" and the like and Thor'd win, such is comics!) and might be a good one to call upon for reference, as his power has a 'mystical' origin. Now, I'm sure we can argue all day about 'Kingdom Come' Superman and how he's more powerful and whatnot. But we know he's still not resistant to magic. Onto worthiness. I think that enough writers have been involved over the years to give plenty of evidence to anyone who wants to discredit Superman's nobility, but the accepted fact is that, in the DCU, few if any are considered more noble. We have to go with that internal consistency in my opinion and that would place him on the sort of footing Captain America enjoys, setting a clear case for him lifting Mjolnir. I could (but won't!) touch on the AWFUL "Eternal Beloved" storyline, but that would just be poor show on my part! I must disagree on the average power level. Thor has been shown to operate in the Superman ball-park, and has been shown to do so on many occasions. But it is by no means his average level. Meanwhile the occasions when Supes goes to extremes are entirely different and tend to involve levels of power that few characters can imitate, pushing planets, surviving blasts equal to multiple nukes, outracing light, etc. In my opinion Thor just can't match that. But we aren't looking so much at extremes here, or we aren't supposed to be. If we break it all down. Superman is faster. Superman is stronger. Superman is tougher. I think those three truths are easily proven. I think that most people would accept them. We can also add in... Thor may be a better fighter. Thor may have the more powerful energy attack. But neither is as obvious as the three above in my opinion. And, in relation to Thor's energy blasts, how often does he finish off an opponent with these as opposed to a 'smite'? Not very. You could argue that it's his love of brawling, but I'd also argue his blows are more powerful. In the end I think we have to side with Superman. Thor would give him a good fight, but time'd be a wasting and he'd crank it up a gear. Thor would be quickly put out to pasture after that.

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..." Okay. Reality check time. Let's consider the evidence. Have Thor or Supes ever been splatted by a single blow? From ANYONE? No. Good. We have now established Mjolnir does not vaporise Superman with one hit. Plenty of magically powerful beings have tussled with Supes and hurt him, but I don't remember any one-punching him (and before you start, Captain Marvel needed TWO punches, and had surprise on his side!) Secondly, the Marvel interpretation of who can lift Mjolnir would clearly include Superman. Captain America can clearly lift it and is quite similar in mindset to Superman, which is what would be important. But I'm going to ignore this anyway as how often does Superman steal his foes toys and throw them away in the middle of a fight? Not often is the answer. So then we have to look at the relative power-levels. Supes is way out there by comparison. I'm not even talking about the extremes. Just day to day power usage has Superman operating way in excess of Thor. In terms of the DCU Thor's closest rivals are Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman, both of whom are consistently shown to be not as powerful as Superman. In the Marvel Universe Thor is clearly not as powerful as the Hulk, yet all available evidence points to Superman outclassing the Hulk. And thus, Thor. Basically the entire arguement for Thor must centre on Supes much discussed vulnerability to magic. Superman IS vulnerable to magic, but only to the extent that almost all magic can hurt him - but with Superman the difference between hurting him and putting him in the ground is a phenomenal one. Superman is so often cut by demon claws or pierced by vampire fangs/magic swords that we'd quickly fill this topic with examples... but how many times has magic of this sort really done for him? Other types of magic, such as transforms, mind control, etc. seem to work infallibly on him, but damaging magic doesn't really seem to trouble his vast capacity for punishment. In game terms it's likely that his defences are reduced against magic and that his Damage Reduction doesn't work against it rather than a traditional x2 or x1 1/2 Vulnerability (otherwise a nick probably still wouldn't get through!) It doesn't look good for Thor here. Just to reinforce the whole issue of Thor's failure here, there are two ways to interpret Supes vulnerability to magic. 1) He's treated like a normal man against it. 2) He isn't as tough against it, but is still incredibly resilient. I think most rational people would go with option 2), however for those of you in the 1) camp, I think it has to be accepted that there are two ways of looking at Mjolnir... and both are far more readily acceptable than option 1) above. A) Mjolnir counts as a magical attack. Mjolnir is a magical hammer, but it's really just a hammer for attack purposes. I'm sure most people who roleplay think of it as A), probably due to the prevalence of "Magic Weapons" and +1 Hammers of Godliness, but in the world of comics I think option is equally likely and readily believable. To sum up: You could argue till your blue in the face and still not come up with a solid answer. But on the face of all available evidence I think the rational man would have to give this fight to the man in the 'S'. P.S. 'Superman is a lame character' is not a valid reason for him losing.

If a character has two vulnerabilities that can be applied simultaneously (for example; silver and magic via a magical silver dagger) then do the multipliers work consecutively or add together. To put that more succinctly: Option 1) 2 x2 Multipliers = x4 Multiplier Option 2) 2 x2 Multipliers = x3 Multiplier To me Option 2 makes more sense, but the rules seem non-commital on the subject. Can I also assume that similar rules apply to vulnerabilities combined with hit locations multipliers?