Ockham's Spoon

Re: The more corrupt you are, the more it hurts I like the idea of a "base level corruption" where noble Psych Lims lower the base and amoral ones increase it. Not that I am the one building this power, but it is an excellent idea. The system won't let me rep you again yet though. ______________________________________________________ Check out the "Song of The South" bluebirds Face down in the plantation mud So don't smile so wide for that lens Crosshairs are not your friends *Click click* - Beauty Pill

Re: The more corrupt you are, the more it hurts I agree that the definition of corruption is going to be key to the construction (and pricing) of this power. Mr. Neilson gives some excellent examples. For that reason, the level of Pysch Lim that Doc D proposes would probably be a good way to define it in game terms. As for the build, I would just have a single power, say 10d6 EB, with the limitation that the damage can't exceed the "corruption level" of the target (-½). The "corruption level" is then defined as total points in "evil" Psych Lims, probably multiplied by a modifier for the level of evil (so Hates Killers might have a multiplier of x1, but Casual Killer a multiplier of x2 or something). You might have to tweak the numbers to get it to come out at the level you want. As mentioned above, some things have no level of corruption (like a vending machine, no matter how frustrating they may be) and hence the attack is useless against inanimate objects. But I would propose that most people are at least slightly corrupt; after all, no one is perfect. They may not be affected strongly by this attack, but it may still sting. I would by default give everyone a 5 or 10 point level Disad "Self-Centered" for purposes of this attack, because that is human nature. This would open a number of role-playing opportunities I think, but also keep the limitation from becoming an advantage (esp. in hostage situations I am thinking). _____________________________________________________________ I say risk, you say cost You choose trapped, I choose lost - Beauty Pill

Re: KB vs Grabs? By the laws of physics, if GlueGuy grabs BigFist and then BigFist hits GlueGuy, there is no KB because for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Assuming GlueGuy manages to hold on, the two of them are effectively a single object. You can't literally pull yourself up by your own bootstraps as it were. The question in my mind would be: if BigFist does 14" KB, how much STR does GlueGuy need to hold on (assuming that he isn't stunned or something). I would say he has to roll over 14 BDY on a STR roll to do so. ___________________________________________________ I say risk, you say cost You choose trapped, I choose lost - Beauty Pill

Re: Damage Shield While I agree that the price for Damage Shield is kind of high and that can end up keeping it from being effective for games with a point cap, from a balance standpoint, consider an alternative build. Say that TorchBoy has an aura of flames that damages anything close to him. You could build that as Xd6 EB, Continuous, AoE 1 Hex, Personal Immunity, No Range. There are some slight differences in the implementation of this power and a Damage Shield EB, but the total level of Advantages is similar. The big difference is that TorchBoy's power gets the No Range limitation. For this reason, and because DS can be used with powers that have no range by default, I alway allow DS to take the No Range limitation when I GM. But maybe that is just me.

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection Is the range of an arrow really considered "Based on STR"? If so, this looks like what I was after. Since you mention that DEX becomes much more effective, perhaps a better way to go would be to require a successful PER roll or penalize the Missile Deflection rather than give bonuses to deflect slower missiles. Throw weapons would either get a PER bonus or the PER roll would be automatic (assuming the attack wasn't from behind or something). Arrows and such would have a normal PER roll, but "imperceptible" attacks could only be perceived with enhanced senses. The enhanced sense might allow you to perceive the missile itself or just the intention of the attacker (empathy or somesuch). If you fail the PER roll, or simply can't see it coming, your MD is at ½OCV, as if you were attacking an invisible opponent in HTH (I think that is the correct penalty). Maybe that is a little more balanced. Chris, thanks for all your help. I so owe you rep as soon at it lets me rep you again.

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection Fair enough, but we could just say that Range Based on STR (limitation or advantage) lends the same OCV bonus that Can Be Thrown does, right? Now, slightly off-topic, maybe I am having a brain-fart here, but if I can't legally buy a HTH attack as Throwable, how do I build say, a sai, which does +3d6 HTH but can be thrown? Do I buy this as EB vs PD, STR can add damage, Range based on STR? That seems a little clunky. The HTH "power" is bought with a mandatory -½ limitation, No Range. Can you buy it with a -¼ limitation Range Based on STR? Back on topic, for the build I detailed above, I would let the thrown weapon OCV penalty be dropped to the same as for arrows provided the thrower made a Fast Draw roll.

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection Ganesh's idea of OCV levels only to stop MD is good, except that it requires rewrites of most published guns; maybe trivial if you just assume it is an automatic +4 OCV or whatever, but it becomes a little more problematic when we are looking at superheroic write-ups which are a lot more varied. Christopher, the idea of giving the Set bonus against thrown weapons inspires me to this thought: Thrown weapons are already built as HKA or HTH attacks with the Advantage "Can Be Thrown". The easiest modification is just to tack on a sentence to the "Can Be Thrown" Advantage which says "attacks built this way give a Missile Deflecting character +3 OCV when deflecting". For arrows and slings, which could potentially be used in HTH (use the sling stones as a fistload) but really are more effective damage-wise when fired (a little handwaving here) you get a +1 OCV bonus when missile deflecting. Here the missile is a lot faster, but still can be perceived. For anything faster than normal human perception (bullets and lasers) there is no OCV bonus, as such attacks can only be "normally" blocked by predicting the attackers action, although the GM may allow a some kinds of Enhanced Senses to act as a Complimentary skill roll. Now take Christopher's Missile Deflection skill. This would be a 3 point skill for 9+DEX/5. Most people will reflexively try to duck if something is thrown at them (Dodge or Dive for Cover), so this is really a skill you would have to buy. Possibly everyone might have this as an Everyman skill (or not depending on the GM), but to have any kind of proficiency you have to buy it. Now if you want to be able to catch missiles, that would be a 5 point adder. If you want to Reflect them, a 20 point adder. Well this makes me happy, but I am open to further comments, especially as to the relative point levels; I may have just made MD too effective or something.

Re: How do you encourage your players to buy more skills You are right in that 3 points for Breakfall is usually more useful than 3 points for Pharmacology, although, as previous posts have mentioned, it depends on how the GM runs the game. But that is exactly why you give Complimentary skill bonuses. If my players know they can buy Paramedic (definitely worth 3 points) up +1 for 2 points, or they can buy SS: Pharmacology which will give them the same effect in most cases for 3 points (or only 2 points if they have Scientist), it becomes a lot more worthwhile to take some of those "less valuable" skills. The characters become more well-rounded for nearly the same cost.

Re: The Perfect Power Build I have built Assassin's Gloves as Invisible HKA, so that the assassin can kill without others noticing, but I love the idea of the victim not realizing he has been hit until it is too late (I would probably give him a PER roll though - "Hey, would ya look at that, my arm just fell off!). Repped.

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection Bad example on my part; you are right that an ice EB and an arrow would be dealt with in the same fashion based on your MD build. Maybe a better example would be the flame thrower and a laser; both would be energy RKA, but the flame travels at a comparably slow pace compared to the laser. I could believe that a talented normal could (with a shield or something) deflect a bolt of flame, but it would be sheer luck to deflect something traveling at the speed of light. Perhaps the trick of missile deflection is not so much seeing the incoming attack and blocking it, but anticipating the attacker's action and reacting to it as it happens; how else would you reliably block a laser? But by that logic there should still be a bonus against thrown weapons which have considerably more telegraphing going on that the flick of a finger on a trigger.

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection To a large extent I agree with you, and I have always kind of thought that guns should have IPE because it isn't really obvious where the shot comes from in many cases, but I still think that the speed of the "missile" is a determining factor. Suppose instead of a Colt 45 I have a laser pistol. The laser may very well be visible, but will still be hard to deflect because it travels at the speed of light, much faster than the "invisible" bullet.

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection I kind of like the idea of making Missile Deflection a skill, in part because it seems closer akin to something like Acrobatics than to Energy Blast, and in part because it would give a good rationale for making it an Everyman skill which I think would be appropriate. Mechanically there is good reason to tie the skill roll to attack power, but I disagree with the idea that it should be based on type of defense though, especially if the SFX of the MD is just ducking out of the way. And even if it isn't, I don't see where batting aside an arrow or a chunk of ice from an EB are fundamentally different. Again, I think the big problem is that the attack powers aren't representative; the wind up time to throw a knife gives the defender a lot more time to prepare to deflect than simply pulling the trigger on a gun. There should be OCV bonuses or penalties at work there, which would dovetail with a MD block roll, but there aren't. Maybe something like a gun should have built in DEX to represent how much faster it is and correspondingly more difficult to block. That would be a major rewrite though...

Re: How do you encourage your players to buy more skills I tried mandating a certain number of points to skills and had two problems. First, almost every character took Acrobatics, Breakfall, Stealth, and as often as not, Acting, which wasn't exactly the rounded background I was going for. Second, some character backgrounds really precluded a lot of skills (a newly created android character or young teen for instance) so a mandatory number of skills didn't make sense in some cases. What I found worked best to encourage players to pick up skills was to tell them to just look over the skill list and consider which of those skills would be useful for their character's background. Frequently the players would look and say, "Oh yeah, I didn't even think of that skill; sure my character should be able to do that." Then ask them what "background" skills would be pertinent. To encourage selection of KS, PS, and SS, I would point out that they often could be used as Complimentary skills (which I often give a +1 bonus for just having the skill instead of making them roll), and with a Skill Enhancer like Scholar, they cost just as much on a 9+CHA/5 as it would to raise the standard skill by +1, so might as well take the "background" skill. Also consider that a character who is a doctor would logically have Paramedic, but probably also has stuff like SS: Anatomy, SS: Pharmacology, and SS: Medical Specialty (neurology, surgery, pediatrics, or whatever), each of which likely boosts the Paramedic roll. Would you go to a doctor that only had the basic familiarity with anatomy that Paramedic would provide? Of course not. The same is true for many professions. Finally, to encourage skill use, make skills easy to use. In many instances just let the character succeed simply for having the skill; only make them roll in skill contests and under difficult circumstances. And when they do roll, give them the benefit of the doubt for bonuses and go light on the penalties unless they are trying something patently ridiculous or the attempt is really supposed to be hard for some plot reason. If skills fail most of the time, players will tend to buy powers instead; why buy a heavily penalized Lockpicking skill when you can buy the "Open Sesame" spell as a Minor Transform and always succeed? And yes that example is from personal experience. Otherwise, I whole-heartedly agree with the previous posts about the GM incorporating skills into the game to encourage the player to take them.

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection In general I agree that a higher power attack ought to be harder to defend against, but only with respect to "normal" defenses. Missile Deflection is the ranged analog to the Block manuever, and logically should be independent of power level. It is just as easy to block the punch of a Brick as it is a normal, yet the Brick will do a lot more damage if he hits. Similarly, if you can block bullets, there shouldn't be a real difference between blocking a Derringer shot and blocking armor piercing rounds from an Magnum, even though they do different damage. For Missile Deflection (and Block too really) the speed of the attack is more important than the power level. The reason even a pro baseball player can't deflect bullets is not because they hurt more than a baseball if you get hit, but because they travel faster than the speed of sound. HERO doesn't make that distinction, however, when you buy a ranged attack. Logically thrown weapons should either have an OCV penalty or bullets should have a bonus, but no one builds them that way. So we are stuck trying to rig Missile Deflection to make logical sense when the logical premise has already been violated. The real question becomes what is a reasonable way to model Missile Deflection realizing that it has to be a compromise solution. __________________________________________________________ One realizes the difficulty of the Middle East situation when one realizes that there is no word in Arabic for "compromise".

Re: The Perfect Power Build The problem with the perfect build is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so I am afraid you have opened yourself up to a (hopefully friendly) barrage of contrary views NekkidC. For my friendly contribution, I don't care for the idea of a naked MA manuever, but I would allow a build like this: 20 STR Telekinesis with Fine Manip, Damage Shield, 0 END, only to use MA Throw manuever (-1). Real Cost: 40 You would probably want to match the TK STR to the character's normal STR, but maybe you only want to put it at casual STR level given the nature of the attack. Granted this build is a 40 point power, but in a martial arts campaign where most combat is HTH, it is a fairly powerful ability, so the cost seems appropriate to me. Now opening myself up to friendly barrage, one of my favorite power builds is for a psychic character: Intuition: +2 Overall levels (more or less depending on power levels) I like this because it is simple, effective, and doesn't risk the game unbalancing problems of Clairsentience with Precognition. ___________________________________________________________ It's Olympus this time- Olympus or bust For we have met the enemy -and he is us And now the day is come Soon he will be released Glory hallelujah! We're building the Perfect Beast - Don Henley

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection Since I started this thread I think it would be okay for me to send it off on a slight tangent here. I haven't seen the DH article so maybe this is addressed there, but the higher cost for deflecting faster objects sticks in my craw too. Logically, yes, it is much harder to block a bullet or a laser than it is to block a thrown dagger. But mechanically the only distinction is the SFX. Is it reasonable that Laser Lad's 2d6 RKA attack requires 20 more points in Missile Deflection to block than Javelin Jack's 2d6 RKA spear? Certainly there needs to be some distinction because I don't think it is reasonable to be blocking bullets without some kind of rationale, but I also don't think SFX should make that large a difference in the price of defenses. My first thought off the top of my head would be to apply a OCV penalty to the basic Missile Deflection depending on the speed of the incoming attack. Say -2 OCV per "level" of MD so that for thrown it would be -0, for arrows -2, for bullets -4, and for energy attacks -6. Even at -4 OCV your chances of MD is pretty poor without a lot of levels or a significantly higher CV. Hmm, that is still a 12 pt difference at the high end, and I would want some rationale for the character to even be able to attempt such a thing, so maybe that needs some tinkering. Thoughts anyone?

Re: Researching old sailing ships The period is wrong (early 1800s), but Patrick O'Brian has an excellent series of books centering on sailing vessels (the central characters are Aubrey & Maturin) which provide a lot of detail about life on a boat, naval terminology, and combat at sea, much of which will be applicable to any time before engine powered vessels. The movie Master and Commander with Russel Crowe was based on O'Brian's books, although the books have a lot more detail in them. ________________________________________________________ Water water everywhere, but not a drop to drink Water water everywhere and all the boards did shrink.

Re: "Life Shield" - Reasonable Power? [+More] IIRC, 1d6 Healing can't restore more than 6 STN and 2 BDY. So basically you will be rolling a lot of extraneous dice until the max is reached, which is just going to slow things down. It would be far simpler and cheaper to buy +6 PD/ED, 2 pts resistant, Doesn't prevent CON stunning (-¼), Only resistant PD/ED stops BDY (-¼), Only useable for 1 hit per Segment (-½); Real cost: 4. Tweak the limitations as you see fit. Clothes that work as Armor would be OIF if it is obvious they provide protection, and IIF if they just seem like regular clothes without careful inspection. And BTW, so glad you are coming back to HERO! _____________________________________________________________ Some people spread joy wherever they go. Others, whenever they go. - Oscar Wilde

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

Re: Move-Through Broken? Good point. I had neglected the low-SPD character's extra inches of movement. That said, in my experience, a high-SPD is significantly more useful than just extra movement. But your best point: too much realism spoils the game. Repped.

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

Re: Move-Through Broken? This is true, but consider that movement can only be converted to damage if the hero is willing to potentially injure himself. Call that a -½ Limitation on the extra DC, and the 3 pts per DC isn't so bad. While I agree that on the surface the high SPD low-movement character gets penalized in the move through damage, he has the advantage of having a high SPD. Look at it from the low-SPD character's standpoint: "we are moving at the same velocity, but the high-SPD guy gets to act more often than me!" Logically you are completely correct that the same velocity should do the same damage, but sometimes to make a build fit the conception you have to tack on a power or limitation to get the right feel. It may be a little kludgy sometimes, but at least HERO gives you option of a workaround. Just my 2 cents.

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima? You make a good point; as I have used NCM, it applied across the board to all characters, but then no one gets a Disad for it. That way if some PC really really wanted a 25 STR, they could have it since there are no hard caps, but it would cost them. I think the point of the NCM Disad was to give Batman types a break so they might compete with truly paranormal supers, giving them some "free" points instead of taking another Disad that would be a significant handicap. Part of the logic of it is that they are unlikely to use future XP to buy up their CHA very much. The Disad limits the character's potential, not his current status. Is that worth 20 pts? Well, you the GM make the call. I am actually a little surprised that NCM still exists in 5ER; didn't they do away with racial ability packages that messed with the NCM for reasons Hugh already mentioned? _________________________________________________________ "Trumpy, you can do magic things!" "Its called evil, kid." from the MST3000 edition of "Pod People"

Re: Bleeding and Bleeders I built an alien race once that tended to die easily once injured, which I bought as Vulnx2 STN & BDY to Bleeding damage (20 pts total). The Bleeding damage was from the optional rules section under Damage. That worked well for me, but I guess it depends on the effect you are going for. ________________________________________________________ "Its only a flesh wound!" - the Black Knight