It's one of the cases where the rules language is just using convenient terminology and not caring it's seriously misdescriptive...because everything means whatever they want it to mean at the time.  

Yeah, in a lot of ways, simply downscaling everything...including expectations...is the most straightforward approach.  The higher you go, the harder it is to nail things down...or the harder it is for people to accept.  And we're conditioned to really, insanely powerful characters...because writers are simply practicing dramatic license, and when we see mechanical translations...?  HSEG has the RPG-7V, an extremely common anti-tank weapon.  From WeaponSystems.net:

 

Quote

Early PG-7V HEAT rounds were capable of penetrating 280 mm of homogenous steel plate, the latest PG-7VR tandem HEAT rocket penetrates over 600 mm behind ERA.

ERA is Explosive Reactive Armor.

So when HSEG calls this 7d6+1 *killing*...yeah, OK.  But that means you need close to 30 resistant defense.  It's also got...scary point...+1 STUN.  So 1/3 of the time, we're talking 75-90 STUN...and another 1/3, it's 100-120 STUN!  And this is "just" an RPG.  We expect a standard-super brick to take this, and keep going, by the source material...but man, cost that out......

This isn't some wild, crazy, rare attack, either.  So building those squishy-soft characters is just asking for an early funeral, unless they have particular tricks to avoid being targeted...Ego Blast's range is LOS.  That helps.  Flight and Invis to Sight, with ranged attacks and LOTS!!! of practice with Strafe, and 6 PSLs to offset range mods...yeah, there ya go.  But just blithely saying that squishy-soft concept *should* be playable in even a standard-power supers game, without these kinds of avoidance aspects, says you want GM Protection to me. 

If a weapon of opportunity is "just something I grabbed"...yeah, it's AF by my lights too.  I feel strongly that special effects simply do not trump the language of rules mechanics.  An improvised weapon isn't OIF, it's IAF;  it's not obvious that it is a weapon.  Until you start using it.  This'd also be the proper category for a spring-loaded sleeve knife, for example.

9 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

That is true, if you are applying a direct relationship between the system mechanics and how they appear in the game world.  The rules suggest we don't do that.  40 STR is a game mechanic, it's special effect need not be so prosaic.

 

A classic batman scene from Dark Knight is a thug waking up to find Batman had carried him to the top of a building, trussed him up and dangled him head down to wake up.

 

30 or 40 STR allows that, even while not suggesting Batman can deadlift over a tonne.

 

STR has a real-world, specific effect...30 STR does let someone deadlift 1.6 tons.  The translation from STR numbers to damage...that's a game mechanic.  But just dismissing the lift chart as "special effect" is a bit much for me.

No, the real issue is that comics writers don't care about rules, system, or even consistency within their own contexts.  Some forms of Batman have 500-1000 points of hand-wave applied, compared to what the baseline description would appear to be.  Quite honestly?  Batman does not, and has NEVER, belonged in JLA combat...but Batman can't be sidelined because...he is Batman.  Hand wave, so the writers can give the fans what they want. 

One of the things to recognize is that "points is points" is FALSE.  Certain build structures are simply MUCH more expensive than others, and that doesn't always translate to powerful, especially in a combat sense.  This is much worse in 5E than in 6E, due to figured characteristics, but even in 6E, there are simply more ways to combine things, without resorting to dubious measures, with a brick than with, say, a blaster.  The typical brick is the least versatile concept out there, sure...but they're really, really good at what they do.  The cosmic power pool build may be versatile as heck...but isn't built for direct confrontations.  Nor is the mentalist.  

We also have to remember that the comics and movies fundamentally use continuous action, and phased combat is a massive, massive shift.  The goons get to counterattack, and that's very tough to prevent.  The goons won't always miss;  even a 6 OCV will hit an 11 DCV on a 6-, which is 10% of the time.  It'll happen in-game;  it never happens in comics or movies.  Star Wars has some of the most blatant examples of this.  Han and Chewie *never* get hit, despite dozens, if not hundreds, of shots aimed at them.  They don't necessarily hit *all* the time...but they always drop the storm troopers they do hit.  Because comic and movie combat is NOT quantitative.  Hero is quantitative.

I'd also suggest that Hero's base system does not scale that well...which isn't surprising.  Few systems do, much less systems that are as complex as Hero.  Specialized attacks targeting alternate defenses become hard to ignore...especially given the *terrible* Transform rules.  (The reference standard Transform power is, IMO, D&D Flesh to Stone or Polymorph Other...and that's as non-quantitative as can be.)  Drains can also be rather nasty.  So...?  If we strive for something close to balance, these are generally not powerful enough to be a real problem in a typical 500 point game.  In a higher power game?  Different story.  Sooo...if you leave significant holes in your defense, you seriously risk being taken out for *extended* periods.  If you want to do an NND?  It better be against something exotic, because the more common stuff *has to be* covered.  With basic attacks?  The STUN damage is the huge concern.  It's growing too fast.

Perhaps the first adjustment is to rescale the *lower* levels.  Goons have SPD 3-4;  goon leaders may have 5's.  Now the heroes can have 8 SPDs and still have the major advantage in the action economy.  It might be interesting to shorten the combat turn...10 phases per turn, instead of 12?  This would help magnify the difference between a 7 SPD and a 4 SPD.  Implement a house rule that most goons' gear simply isn't up to dealing with high-power attacks.  Rather than scaling up the attack...how about a house rule that the DEF of goon- or civilian-level armor is halved versus the STUN of that attack?  So you don't need to make those attacks overly powerful, while giving the goons the kinds of armor that make life difficult for civilian response, or even lesser heroes.  For things like blasting through obstacles, particularly out of combat...let the high-power character focus...and make his attack AP.  Spend the END, sure, but it's a free trick.

How about a SPD-like characteristic?  In RAW, once you've executed a terminating action like attacking, you're 'frozen' until your next turn...you can't even abort.  Buying this would let you reset to a greater or lesser degree, X times per turn...you buy how many times you can do this.  This might be done as:

--your action was no longer terminating...it's as if the phase changed to the next phase.  At its most basic, you're allowed to blow your next phase to execute a defensive action.

--for something more powerful...as above, plus any DCV penalties from your earlier action are erased.  This might well be enough to say you don't have to blow to dodge.

--most powerful...as above, but if you can act in the next phase, you can also execute a half or full move...altho these count against what you could do in the next phase when your initiative comes around.

Speaking of downers, box office for The Flash is definitely a downer.  $54M on release weekend (Fri-Sat-Sun);  only $16M on second weekend, and only about $5M last weekend.  Total domestic just barely over $100M and there's serious doubts whether it'll break even.

https://www.boxofficemojo.com/year/2023/?ref_=bo_yl_table_1

Similar concerns about Shazam!  Fury of the Gods.  Screen Rant also calls it a major bomb.  

https://www.boxofficemojo.com/release/rl162234881/?ref_=bo_yld_table_21

With all the turmoil at Warner recently, this is not the time for disastrously bad numbers. Warner is in a really bad place right now:
https://www.the-numbers.com/market/2023/summary

Scroll down to the middle to get box office by distributor.  They're 7th...and $160M of that $260M is from *bombs*.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear major rumblings coming out of Warner in the next few months. 

14 hours ago, Logan D. Hurricanes said:

Man steals forklift at Lowe’s, runs over 73-year-old outside Home Depot 

Early comment about the story:

If you put this in a movie, no one would believe it, not even Quentin Tarantino.

I'd be happy to diss the kid til the cows come home, and suggest this belongs in the Dumb Criminals thread......but this piece of sub-moronic refuse killed a total innocent.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's hard to sit a jury for this trial, if it goes that far.  Maryland is not a death penalty state, so there's no chance of pleading in return for taking that off the table.  It could go to trial;  the kid has little to lose.  Granted, from the story, he's pretty much certain to be in jail for a very, very long time;  the facts suggest he's got no real chance at trial.  His mother is apparently saying he's been having mental health issues, so...ok, there may be that route, but I'm not sure that a prison psych ward is preferable.

That position feels rooted in a sense of insecurity, or a need to assert that there is something intrinsically superior/different about being Human.

Or just raise a glass to help get through the noise......

Yeah, they tricked me, and saved up everything for this evening.............

So I need another beer.

Plus, who's to say exactly WHAT the concept is....other than the player that built it?  To be sure, if there are very much atypical aspects, then the GM may be well advised to inquire why...if it matters to him.

Really, it isn't so much a problem with high-end Hero, as it's a problem with high end in many systems.  It's also endemic when you get to *build* to high levels from the get-go...rather than start at more moderate levels.  If I start at 800, then I'm going to have something VERY!!!! different than if I start at 500, and add 300 over the course of a year.

And, note that if the game's attacks are moving into the, say, 16-18 DC range, you're looking at 70 STUN coming down the line for a basic attack.  If you only have 30 DEF...no DR, no negation...then if you get hit with something like that?  40 STUN.  First time you're stunned, bad enough.  Second time, plausibly stunned and knocked out...or, you took a phase to recover from being stunned, then another phase to recover, from the first.  BORING.  Resistant defense?  Same thing.  5d6 killing can be 20 BODY quite easily...in fact, 20+ will happen almost 1/3 of the time.  Considering that...how much resistant do YOU want to have?

We haven't seen/heard much...there were some last night but not all that many.

Not sure, but weather's a plausible factor.  The lowest high temperature in the last 2 weeks has been 99.5, and it's been windy off and on.  Last rain was about a tenth of an inch...almost a month ago.  And it's been VERY dry so far this year;  1.2 inches of rain, total, which is probably about half what we usually see in the first 6 months.

We'll see how tonight goes.

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

The challenge, as identified above, is what you decide "high end" means.  CV 13 - 18 sounds pretty good, but the OP was tossing around 20 as a baseline.  How does Kiloton stack up if the norm is 20 OCV/20 DCV?

 

Sure, but I wasn't trying to build to any specific goal, just pointing out that 1000 points is a LOT of points, and the 20 CV is very likely overkill.  

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

One of my least favorite devices in computer games is when the world "levels up" with you, so its just as big a threat to you at level 28 as it was at level 2.  You get ridiculous crap like level 100 eagles and wolves in World of Warcraft, because you're level 100 and everything matches your power.  It strips away nearly all sense of power growth and advancement and has very odd effects on the storyline.

It is the easier methodology, rather than building specifically 100 level versions that are clearly NOT the same as what you faced earlier.  But, yes, it can be rather irritating.

The problem is, tho, what does it take to challenge a Kiloton, or any other coherently built character with 900-ish points in combat-related points?  Escalation issues have always led to serious distortions.  How many ancient dragons *are* there in a given region?  And why is this ancient lich active *now* just as the PCs can handle him?

SPD 12 can also mean you're burning through a LOT of END.  IF you're built so you can take a recovery...and IF the opposition lets you...that may be fine.  Remember, tho, you can't have any powers active that are costing you END.  It isn't that it's not feasible, it's just a lot narrower...particularly at higher levels where open phases where splitting the goons between SPD 6 and SPD 7 leaves only 1, 3, and 5 as clear.

Another general issue...what does one mean by "high scale"?

Ran across this.  It's somewhat ambiguous...what exactly is city block level durability?  But still, it outlines the notions involved, the descriptive notions for the kinds of power we're talking about.

https://marvel-dc.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System

My sense is, my guy up there is Urban level...8-B or 8-A.  But also remember, destroying a town is QUITE a bit bigger.  And City Level, 7-B, is leveling multiple square miles.  Not damaging...FLATTENING.  Perhaps 24d6, 48m radius Explosions?  But if you want to take out a major building, there's a LOT!!! of BODY to account for, if you're being realistic.  (Granted, things like the wall rules aren't realistic...which is a separate issue when we're talking this level.) BTW, in the equipment guide, a wire-guided missile has a damage rating of 8d6K Explosion...and AP x2.  That's for getting through tank armor.  Is your notion of high power being able to take out a tank....or one-shot a tank through the front armor?  it's rated at 20 and the wire-guided missile suggests it's got at least 1 level of hardened, too.  Or, is your goal to say...one-shot?  Nonononononoo...roadkill it.  Vaporize it.  Start looking at the DCs involved..............

2 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah that's the kind of thing I mean.  Maybe at a certain power level the rules behave differently.  You get 2d6 per 5 STR after 60, for example.

I'd rather not give anything more.  I just take it as a justification for buying an HA or martial DCs.  A 60 STR is 100 tons;  that's well up there, but it's only a 12d6 punch.  I also like treating Lightning Reflexes to suggest you can accelerate/move quicker than usual...and with a punch, that means more damage.  So 5 points of LR, generally for All Actions, also justifies buying 1d6 of damage in a similar manner.

Running is a pain.   

Just remain flexible.  You'll find things that work, things that don't....things that work in one genre, or at one point level, that don't work in another.  Hero's got a LOT of moving parts and room for GM discretion.

13 hours ago, Logan D. Hurricanes said:

Today is my brat's 10th bday. Doesn't he look thrilled?

 

"Don't you know it's NEVER polite to discuss a feline's age?"

On the point of high-end guidelines...

Just for grins, built a 5E "character" called Kiloton...because that's about what he can lift.  75 STR, listed as 800 tons.  Push 2 points and you get a kiloton, so why not.

No ECs.  Actually NO limitations whatsoever right now that aren't mandatory (5E Regen).

940 points.

28d6 attack (11 DCs HTH, because IMO STR damage scales ridiculously too slowly)

40 DEF, 30 resistant, and 75% DR, resistant.  (28d6 punches can mean well over 100 STUN.  9d6 Killing can easily approach 40 BODY.)

37 points in martial maneuvers, with some overlap, cuz I'm thinking he's learned 3 different styles

30 points of Combat Master:  Defense Maneuver IV, Rapid Attack, Defensive Attack, and Two Weapon Fighting

38 DEX, 28 INT, 9 SPD...some might push the SPD even higher.  Base CV is 13, but there's about 5 levels to play with, between martial maneuvers and CSLs.

Flight at about 900 mph (17", x16 NC)

25 points Power Def, 15 points Mental Def

Left 60 points for other skills that I don't feel like bothering with, as this is just a thought experiment.  What's missing?  The biggest potential holes would be contributing to a base, and followers/contacts.  That could get decently pricey.  And that's an issue for the guidelines...at these levels, what SHOULD a character spend on these aspects?  And, while this is using 5E, and tanks are just insanely inexpensive...there's NO attempt to shave points, either.  A high-end blaster could have a *rather* large EC.

And of course, 28d6 is getting pretty bloody absurd, but that's not really the point.  It's what you can do...cleanly, without any rules manipulation, unless you consider the Martial Arts DCs manipulative.  I'd disagree, as there's lots of ways to do that...and you could just buy more STR, which might end up CHEAPER in 5E.

Sprint ending on the stage was a bit contentious, as it looked like Philipsen squeezed Van Aert almost into the barrier, forcing Van Aert to decelerate.  Race judges said it was OK;  in part, Philipsen was taking the shortest line, and Van Aert was on the wrong side to be on the tail...he was to the right.

And note that even -5 DCV is huge, unless it's a total mismatch.  If my base DCV is +3 to your OCV, you're at 8- to hit, basically 1 in 4.  -5 would give you a 13-, basically 5 out of 6.  If my DCV was +7, then a -5 would take you from 1 in 50 to hit, to 3 out of 8.  If it's more, well, ok, it stops mattering, really, but even a 7 point base CV difference is crazy huge most of the time.  

So if the high-powered character is trained?  They'll train so those massive OCV and DCV penalties that can be avoided, are avoided.  1000 points is a LOT!!! of points.  Haymaker has the -5 DCV...well, DON'T HAYMAKER.  EVER.  At these levels.  With 1000 points you can put 20-30 in martial maneuvers.  It doesn't mean you're a martial artist, it can mean you simply have experience in HTH.  You know how to move, how to throw an effective punch.  OK, fine, if you're running an Incredible Hulk, well, that isn't there;  Hulk gets by on raw power and defenses that are beyond insane.

Worst penalties in standard maneuvers:

Haymaker, -5 DCV

Grab By, -4 DCV

Move Through, -3 DCV and -v/10 OCV

Strafe, -v/6 OCV

I'm just referencing 6E2 56 here.  Multiple Attack has the really big ones...but as I mentioned, APG I, page 38, has Defensive Attack...you're only -2 DCV, instead of 1/2 DCV, when making a multiple attack.  With 1000+ points?  Build the serious Master of Combat.  Defense Maneuver.  Rapid Attack.  Defensive Attack.  Two Weapons Fighting...I strongly suggest blowing off the limit about using it with unarmed HTH and innate powers, but then, I also buy full Ambidexterity at even a 23 DEX.  For the rest, Offensive Strike replaces Haymaker.  Grab By and Move By/Through...there may not be martial maneuvers to replace these, within the 2 standard books, but there are in Hero System Martial Arts.

Some absolute jackass threw a bunch of carpet tacks onto the course at the Tour yesterday, at the start of the last climb.  Report is, 15-20 riders picked some up.  And more today, at least a few riders have picked them up.  It's unlikely the perp(s) will get caught but we can hope.... 

I certainly recall some chains have, for example, particularly strong/sweet drinks...but I tended to prefer them.  

And the counter argument?  Keeping a lean syrup-water ratio is *cheaper.*  

First...20?  Is there really a reason to go that high?  Average, reasonably powerful super is in the 8-10 range;  16 OCV vs. 10 DCV is only miss on an 18, and 10 OCV vs. 16 DCV only hits on a 5-, which is 1 in 20.  

I don't have a problem with it, cuz the 1/2 DCV is a major issue at even a 12.  Just sayin' that scaling VERY high power games is tricky.  Really, really high CVs tends to be expensive overkill.

As far as the rules go...

Non-combat movement?  Check out Velocity-based DCV.  When your Velo DCV is 40 or so, half DCV isn't a big deal.

Multiple Attack?  APG I, IIRC...Defensive Attack.  Multiple attacks give -2 instead of 1/2 DCV.

Have the characters take martial maneuvers to replace the standard, free combat maneuvers that halve DCV.  Personal bias?  NO advanced, high power character should EVER use a bare standard maneuver.  Basic maneuvers are for rookies.  I'm heavily, HEAVILY biased to saying they've got training...sometimes that's as little as 15 points in martial maneuvers, but rarely it's been closer to 40, when the build has both HTH and ranged martial maneuvers.

Look at workarounds.  Not that many situations impose 1/2 DCV;  it IS a severe penalty.  Multiple Attack...addressed.  Brace...don't use it.  Ever.  Penalty skill levels for Range Mods.  Stunned?  The obvious solution:  don't *get* stunned.  50% damage reduction is pricey, sure, but it can *seriously* help avoid the problem.  The higher the average attack dice, the more sense DR makes.  50% *tends* to be the cost effective level.  25% is largely useless, 75% is not cost-effective.  

A *possible* workaround for STUN...there's bizarre wording in DR, where it works against certain Drains and AVADs...even without the standard defense.  The rules are bloody incomplete, IMO...WHEN can you apply them?  If you have 50% energy but 75% physical, which applies???  Fine. Toss that BS out.  And cut the costs because they're horrible, mathematically and structurally.  They've never fit.  10, 20, and 30 for 25, 50, 75%.  And toss the options like Nonresistant and STUN Only out the window;  trust me, STUN Only is for points mongering.  

Picky, picky, picky.......................

<whaps self>

OK.  The Tin Man.  Jack Haley.

Kind of amusing to see how much times have changed.  From Time:

 

Quote

Buddy Ebsen was originally cast in the role of the Tin Woodman, a.k.a. the Tin Man, but he was essentially poisoned by the makeup, which was made of pure aluminum dust. Nine days after filming started he was hospitalized, sitting under an oxygen tent. When he was not getting better fast enough, the filmmakers hired Jack Haley to be the Tin Man instead. This time, instead of applying the aluminum powder, the makeup artists mixed it into a paste and painted it on him. He did develop an infection in his right eye that needed medical attention, but it ended up being treatable.

 

Margaret Hamilton — who played the Wicked Witch of the West and was the one tipped who Harmetz off to the turmoil on set more than three decades later for her 1977 book — got burns, and the makeup artists had to rush to remove her copper makeup so that it wouldn’t seep through her wounds and become toxic. Unlike Ebsen, she didn’t get fired because they could live without her on the set for several more weeks.

I knew the Ebsen part, but not the rest.  But stuff this nasty wouldn't fly for several decades now. 

Jester himself.....Michael Ironside

On 7/1/2023 at 6:04 AM, Logan D. Hurricanes said:

I often listen to ESPN expat radio (Dan Patrick, Dan Le Batard) and they are baffled by what is going on at ESPN right now. Sounds like some new person has been put in charge that hates sports or what they do. I think it's just buyer's remorse over their ridiculous NFL contract. 

I'll always start with the simplest explanation:  the bean counters are making the decisions.  They probably expect they can replace most of em with people who cost 1/3 as much.  Of course, that begs the question of signing Pat McAfee...at, IIRC, $17M a year.  Of course, one can construct an argument for why...that couldn't be posted here.  

Won't argue that the MNF contract is part of it, but it's possible they're planning to use that as a cornerstone to transition to streaming.

4 hours ago, Cygnia said:

Florida bill allowing radioactive roads made of potentially cancer-causing mining waste signed by DeSantis

Are we sure DeSantis is even smart enough to realize what the problem with phosphogypsum might be?