TheDarkness

Okay, on the initial question, the options given seem to be the right tracks I need to look at: a throw ending with a grab, which gives an OCV advantage for certain followups.

Overall, the throw is an excuse to work on a more developed ground fighting martial art, as I feel the ground fighting as presented is adequate for very basic situations, but precludes someone who wants to make a ground fighter, so points that have been raised on this thread definitely gave me a lot of food for thought about the problems and possibilities in establishing such a thing.

So, the original question, the throw, has been well answered. Thanks!

On the larger issue of groundfighting, I'll have to do more research and ironing out details, based on what everyone here has been saying and what I've been reading. It's not about character effectiveness, but game dynamics in a game that could have a number of martial artists.

I'm not intending to recreate wholesale a style, but enough of the flavor of one to make it fun and challenging.

Usually, the ground fight starts with a regular throw or take down, trip, what have you. After that, locks and chokes are a more immediate threat than strikes. Strikes require a highly advantageous position to be damaging. Most of the fight is getting into position to do any of these.

So, I see in the UMA book(assuming, for now, that the costs remain the same from fifth edition to sixth, I'm not sure on that), that there is a reversal move, obviously there are already joint lock builds, choke builds. Those don't need any change. Could probably establish 'guard', the defensive positions, as similar to block, maybe not. I'll have to think about that. So yes, I may be able to do most of it based on the preexisting moves.

Striking needs one change to reflect that being on the ground reduces the damage of most strikes, not for one character, but for all. This is a bit of a problem, as the simplest way is to place that limitation on all strikes('reduced DC on ground') except a generic 'Ground and Pound', but this would change a lot of costs, if by a small amount.

Actually, now that I think about this, perhaps not much more is needed. Most other positions could merely be description based on the dice roll. The strike is the main sticking point.

I have to meet a student's parents, but I just want to make clear, you are being a big help, please don't assume your contribution is the problem, I'll explain myself better as I have time.

I try to do a mix of all three. Generally, Cinematic realism with flashes of wuxia and as deadly as real combat. The commbo works surprisingly well.

This post made me happy. Yes yes yes! Great combo, the epic, fantastical stuff means so much more when, in the back of the player's head, they're remembering that one time, the ugly fight...

There is a nugget of mechanical effect in what you just stated, "[G]roundfighting postions essentially takes away the effectiveness of most strikes."

 

So, either the damage dealt is easier to take / reduced or the likelihood to hit with an effective strike is less. Guess what, Grappling achieves exactly that. The grabbed target (assuming roughly equal strength) is at half DcV against ALL attackers, -3 OcV against the Grabber, and half OcV against all other attacks. And that is assuming the grab doesn't disable his ability to attack (being grabbed prevents use of foci and limits other attacks). 

 

You can add to this combat effectiveness by countering the Half DcV penalty vs the grabbed character. If your character has a normal DcV of 8, he would be at 4 with the grapple. You can counter this by buying +8 DcV from Penalty Skill levels to offset Grappled DCV minus - 16 points. Now your character can grapple at full DcV. Tack on a -1 limitation (only versus the Grabbed target), and it becomes only 8 points. The grabbed target will not be hitting your character because he is just too skilled to allow them a chance. 

 

Foreign Orchid. 

Okay, good info. Here's the rub(and I'm not being picky with your responses, you're giving me good, useful info, I'm just trying to better explain myself as these things come up).

In groundfighting, striking is severely limited in effectiveness for BOTH people, UNLESS one happens to be in one particular position.

Generally speaking, two moderately competent ground fighters are always in a mutual grab. And being on the ground means that all the power generation of a normal strike, which relies on footwork and waist work, are right out the window, except when one person gets what is called full mount, which is not easy to do for long(barring a difference in skill levels).

In real terms, striking in ground work suffers a penalty to damage classes, except in full mount. I know this brings us away from the discussion of the initial throw, but it's very helpful to me, thanks so much for the info you've given!

The Darkness one thought I have is that you could have combat skill levels that only take place after your throw to help with the next maneuver. Also look at counter strike maneuver and you could modify it for your follow up technique.

Brilliant! Yes, I'll definitely be looking into that!

Thanks, Foreign Orchid. Definitely food for thought!

I'll have to give this all some thought. As groundfighting is actually quite different from standup(for example, in most situations, being in a groundfighting position essentially takes away the effectiveness of most strikes EXCEPT in one particular position). I totally, where possible, want to adapt or use what is already there in the fighting system, so chokes, jointlocks, there is no need to mess with them.

Sounds like a fun excuse for some improvised work on the part of the team. Yes, they paid for the power, and you paid for the power that only works on it, and have a reasonable enemy who would want to do that.

I'll assume the team has been checking the drones for tracking devices?

It really sounds like you are trying to create new combat timing rules for HERO instead working with the existing ones.

 

I had a similar goal when I first joined this forum back in 2004.

I tried very hard to build an effect inspired by Dragon Ball Z where a fighter flies towards an opponent and at the last moment adds a burst of speed that is so fast that he can't be seen and suddenly reappears behind the opponent to deliver the blow.  I tried creating a literal translation via Flight and a Triggered Teleport that would allow the character to maintain Flight velocity for a Move Through. There was just no way to build the effect to fit within 1 Phase.  I just had to accept that it was a 2 step sequence.

 

I am pretty sure you are having a similar issue with reconciling the effect you have imagined with the existing maneuvers designed specifically to model such an effect.  Note that a maneuver that includes Grab & Target Falls IS a Grab + "throw to ground & maintain Grab" where the throw is not doing any additional damage.

 

Here are other related maneuvers from my John Wick example worth looking at:

 

5    8)  Joint Break (Custom):  1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, -2 DCV, Grab One Limb,  HKA 1 1/2d6, Disable

[Notes: (Sambo)]

3    9)  Joint Lock (Custom):  1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, -1 DCV,  25 STR , Grab One Limb

4    10) Joint Lock/Throw:  1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +0 DCV, Grab One Limb; 1d6 NND ; Target Falls

3    15) Sacrifice Throw:  1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +1 DCV, 3d6 Strike; You Fall, Target Falls

Yes, this helps a lot, I should have looked at that earlier.

My intent was more using what is there to flesh out a groundfighting martial art. So throwing to the ground while maintaining the hold was not more damaging, but instead gave a ocv bonus for followup. From there, a lock could be a lock, a choke, a choke, all taking their appropriate time to perform. There were only a couple additions I was going to add in, basically related to guard and mount.

Part of the goal is to make it so that such a character, fighting someone with more stand up fighting skills, would have more options on the ground, just as stand up fighting has more, but sticking to variations of the stand up moves where available. This way, unarmed fighters could have more variety, and pros and cons, but mainly, because I'm enjoying the build process.

For sensing the aura, you could have different area effect powers have different appearances for those able to see them. Assuming the character has different ones. I recommend making the character a hipster who works for the government, The FedAura.

I put this in another topic, but I think it's always good to keep in mind that experts in the sword, in the past, also had often trained stick, some form of dagger, and pole arm. Though, I'm terrified that Markdoc will tell me I'm wrong...

...okay, not terrified, but it's the internet, and we know being wrong on the internet is deadly. Like, two legions of pikes fighting over the last lamb kebab deadly.

The 'throw' mechanic leaves the opponent with the prone disadvantage; the 'grab' mechanic leaves the target with the 'grabbed' disadvantage (two limbs) but also encumbers the martial artist while the hold is maintained. Further, the ground fighting element implies 'both fall', as in a sacrifice throw.

 

Either a throw maneuver or a grab maneuver is enough to achieve some combat effect a player might want, but what is specifically being asked for seems to be grab with the limitation, "must follow throw", (giving the martial artist the option to let go instead of hanging on) or a combined maneuver that leaves the opponent prone while being held (redundant disadvantages) without the option to let go but taking less time.

 

Tactically, it gets expensive to build a decent martial artist with the combined maneuver, since being able to let go of someone you've just thrown can be very desirable, in particular if you've just rendered yourself prone.

 

If I were doing it, I'd look at modifying Sacrifice Throw, to add the outcome, "target held" for an additional 1 point. (Making it a 4 pt maneuver, because while it is slightly advantageous to not need to establish a grab next phase, it is a big disadvantage to be holding onto someone prone, even though letting go is a zero phase action.)

I'm thinking that I'm messing up heroes terminology, but your post helps.

I may need to look at a lesser effect than a hold, since the idea is a slight advantage from the control of one limb at the end of a throw, or two at the end of a sacrifice throw, which would qualify as a hold, so two different moves at this point.

I think what you are looking for is not a throw but simply normal martial arts damage.

 

A character can grapple another character. Following that, they can then punch, kick, or otherwise assault the grappled character. The "special effect" of those assaults could easily just be "twist arm and drop and hold". There isn't a mechanical need to build that as a "throw". Next, if you have a character with actual martial arts skills, they could execute the above much more fluidly (grapple and damage in the same action).

 

Now if there is a need to actually "drop" the enemy so that they are not just grappled but also prone on the ground, then I would simply look towards finding an existing maneuver already in publication or create your own. Perhaps just go with "Trip" from 6ED Volume 2, page 56 and 83. It is a generic maneuver that anyone can do even without a grapple beforehand. It normally does no damage, though. As a GM, if a player grappled a target and then tripped them, I would allow them to maintain the grapple.

 

I imagine there is a Martial Drop skill already in publication that would do the trick, too. But I am not sure off hand where to find it. But you could always create one that was a follow up to a Martial Grab. The Drop would do STR+2d6 and give you +1 OCV and +2 DCV.

 

Foreign Orchid.

The Darkness is your iui jitsu fighter also going to be on the ground after the throw? Then add you fall disable element.

Yes, I'm trying to build a framework for groundfighting beyond what is in the Ultimate Martial Artist.

My goal is to build a dynamic framework that will build suspense in the fights much as stand up fighting already has in the system, where one aborts actions to respond to actions, blocks, then their opponent knows that they are set up for a response, and must decide how to counter.

For that reason, I want to keep the throw itself as a normal throw, but with the addition of having a hold in place that their opponent will know could lead to a followup, likely a lock or break, depending on their opponent's character and the situation.

So, for game terms, I'm looking to build a throw that ends in a hold that specifically can be used to give a modest bonus to a followup action, that would likely be a joint lock. I am just not clear on the mechanics of the actual build.

So the build may not be simple, it should be harder than just the throw on its own, but the goal in my game is not always cost efficiency, but play dynamics. I encourage builds that add to the description and action.(For example, the player I'm working with now has a gun that can fire a taser round, but the taser is actually a couple mechanical creatures that then crawl away and back to him, and can be damaged on their return. While it would be simpler to just make the power, I like the effect of knowing that a normal person, faced with a weird mechanical millipede that just shocked him or her, just might want to crush it, so I encourage the build).

The lock itself is a followup that can be avoided, with luck. And an additional action. The throw ending in a hold is the entire move on its own.

Sorry if I wasn't particularly clear.

Working on a concept for a jiujitsu fighter, and I want to build a throw what ends with the throws person in a grab to followup with ground fighting.

The idea is, the throw occurs, let's say a throw that uses the target's arm and waist for the initial grab, the throw succeeds, and the arm is still grabbed, so that the thrower can attempt an armlock after.

Bear in mind, I'm still getting a handle on how basic throws are built, sorry if the question is an obvious one!

Am I correct, if one wanted to do a build of it, one could just make it a focus, buy the three ocv for the focus, and that would be good?

Actually, I missed this before. I'm confused on, if it's set up as a trip manuever, what OCV would be used?

I love that there are twenty ways to build the same effect.

Teleport, target must be moving, moves through intervening space, with the limitation that Rambo always sees it.

I actually got thinking about this earlier. If we accept the sympathetic/antagonistic relationship of objects to magic, then the proliferation of objects makes magic less universally applicable, then the result would naturally be magic seeming to disappear from life as man-made objects became more numerous. Essentially, with the advent of organized society, magic is hardly able to manifest in centers of population, and after the industrial age, never seen except with few witnesses.

It's an interestingly flexible theory.

Using a painting of a rabbit (a la Albrecht Durer) to deflect a magical arrow is an amusing thought.

Player 1: I knew I should have brought my Matisse. Always bring the Matisse!

GM: Well, you're already encumbered.

Player 2: Someone always has to bring the H.R. Giger...

Player 1: I swear, someday, the Giger will save all our butts...

Player 2: Oh, yeah, we're always facing people who summon insectoid xenomorphs...[/i]

Player 3: Damnit, I've got half a body and a bench floating over a pegasus, need a hand...

Player 1: I think this is a job for Dali...

It's a Mad, Mad Max

The Interview With a Vampire(featuring two hours of Gene Hackman as an NSA agent viewing video clips of people talking to vampires who don't show up on video)

Ferris Bueller's Day the Earth Stood Still

Them and It, a buddy picture about an evil clown and a giant ant

Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince of Tides

Star Trek, The Voyage Home for the Holidays

Mr. Smith Goes to The Matrix

Watchmen Behaving Badly

Superman Bites Dog

What's Eating Gilbert Grapes of Wrath (very dark)

I had that flash when watching the latest episode.

 

I'm not curious about Wells again. I'm still getting the evil vibe from him, but maybe he's not Zoom. Then again, he could be just setting everyone up for a betrayal. The Ferengi say the sharper the smile, the sharper the knife. There's a Pacific/Indian ocean tribe that used to revere traitors who first "fattened" their victims with friendship.

I think what I like about the Earth-2 Wells is he isn't fattening them up for the feast, whether he's good or evil. The Earth-1 Wells was good at telling everyone exactly what they needed to hear in a way they admired. This one clearly cannot edit his own thoughts, he says whatever he thinks is the case, whether it's right to do so or not.

It also depends on what exactly magic is in Ragitsu's world.  It could be that it is opposed somehow to the forces of Creation -- maybe it's fundamental chaos, in opposition to order; maybe it's a loophole in the fundamental laws of physics; or something else.  Whatever it is, the act of cosmological creation, whether literal or symbolic, is opposed to magic and therefore shuts it down.

Cool thinking!

I'm picturing this as still usable in the oppositional/sympathetic framework. In a world where magic is chaos given temporary form, the creation, a magical act, creates an order, the object. The first act is sympathetic, the object is in opposition. Interesting. The tools, like the brush, are used to make an order, an unmagical mundane, out of the chaos of creative magic. This raises interesting possibilities for builds. A chisel that alters and solidifies magic it faces into harmless, pleasing effects, for example...

See, this is totally why I asked, I could not wrap my brain around the concept of a creative product resisting magic(I didn't do a proper build, needed to buy more brain stretching, perhaps with brain barrier at a low level, as I already spent too many points on KS: obtusity).

Thanks, Chris!

Depending on where the gunman is,there very likely would be a bonus to the roll. Auditoriums, especially older ones, are designed so that a voice, without microphone, will carry over the entire distance from stage to crowd. So, the closer the gunman is to the stage, the greater the bonus to the roll.

I've seen something like this for a hyperdrive in a sci-fi game. I think that it is a useful tool.

What I'm finding, for me, is that for gadgets, it opens up a lot of in-game opportunities and suspense for gadgeteers, and for knowledge skills, it not only might give the people with the skills a real sense of knowing more, but forces me to flesh out the world in a way that draws out connections between people I might not have thought of otherwise.

I always like the idea of sympathetic properties. So, for example, a particular substance or object might be utterly immune to certain types of magic, and sympathetic and aiding other types.

For example, Lee Harvey Oswald's magic bullet might be utterly resistant to magic that seeks to reveal the truth, but sympathetic to multiple attacks.(A reference that comes up in an actual game I'm running, not fantasy, but the character who mentions it is an enchantress who works with items, but they must be sympathetic to what she seeks to do with them. So, Uri's skull acts as an entangle that effects all in LOS as long as she is monologuing, Edward Morrow's glasses give enhanced senses as long as the user intends to use them to reveal the truth to the world, a knife used to kill Caesar teleports her behind an enemy, etc.)

I'm confused why art would be anti-magic. I would think constructs of the imagination would be sympathetic, but I may be coming at this from a different angle and missing a cool explanation.

To clarify, pyronide and I were speaking, and the desired effect is actually a AOE transform that combines the individuals into one new creature. So, no damage, but a physical and mental transform. Again, I suspect that the points required would be astronomical.

So, apparently, it is Brundle-Fly.