Brian Stanfield

Duke, one aspect of Brian's plan which I really like is that it is not a "modified version" of the rules.  It presents only those rules required to run the game, so it does not need a lot of Powers/Advantages/Limitations mechanics, just how the ones used to make things in the game work.  A gun can simply be described as a 2d6-1 Killing Attack, with clips of 8 bullets and an optional sight which adds +1 OCV and reduces range penalties by 2.  None of the costing is needed.  Assuming we don't pay CP for weapons, no point costs are needed at all.
 
Maybe we have an ability like "Double Tap" - the character can fire two shots from any handgun as a single attack action, at a single target.  If the attack roll hits, both shots strike the target.  X CP. 
 
The reader does not need to know that is a Naked Advantage 2 shot Autofire usable on any pistol, 0 END, and +2 OCV only to offset the -2 autofire penalty when firing two shots.  They only need to know that the character spending those CP can shoot 2 bullets at once from a handgun.
 
I don't like presenting an abbreviated and renamed version of the Powers section.  That will make it more challenging for these gamers to transition to the full Hero system should they wish to do so.
 
To me, these "powered by Hero" games are a lot like the pre-4e "each game is separate", but eliminates the "source code is just a little different for each one" issue which 4e resolved.  However, they also remove the source code, so the players just play the game, with no need to design it.

My apologies, Brian:  I was on a phone on a break at work, and didn't take (or really have) the time to clarify that:
 
I agree with you as far as presenting a list of prebuilt "appropriate stuff" to use in your games relative to your "complete" game.  I am _totally_ with that, as it's worked for years and years and years for _every_ non-universal game _ever_, and even in some universal books (GURPS 3e, anyone?  Each genre book had lengthy lists of appropriate gear and weaponry, prices, etc.  Really nice stuff.)
 
My thoughts on the light version of Powers-- the Elements-- were in regard to what seems to be the biggest amount of push-back you are receiving:  that it is somehow necessary to include some version of the Powers in every book so that people can make their new stuff.  Personally, I didn't have a universal system in Traveller or in Vampire or in Macho Women with Guns or in, or in, or in, or in, etc-- yet we never really had a problem looking at what was there in print and tweaking it here and there to make "new stuff" with absolutely _no_ underlying system.  But I figured "You know, there's got to be a happy medium in here somewhere."  So in with the rules book and the campaign book and the map (or two or seven) and a few dice, I figured we toss in a thirty-page booklet titles "expanding your world" or something along that line, to include the Elements section and "how to make new stuff," and perhaps a well-written discussion of managing a continuing campaign.  Totally optional, totally separate, totally ignorable for those who would rather just keep burning through modules.
 
All that would have been Hell to type with a pair of thumbs.
 
 

That would be BadWrongFun Duke, you gotta get the components in the right order WITH the capitalisation or you are not saying it right. 😄
 
Doc

RELEASE THE QUACKIN'!

Hello,
 
I just submitted 5 game options at Origins this year.  I am not a part of a group, but I will be running 5 HERO games at Origins this year (thought about mixing with Savage Worlds, but figured that it would mess up my DM brain too much).  I'll post the schedule as we get closer.
 
Champions: Evilution Unchained!: An adaptation of Pete Ruttman's 3-Act adventure for a convention setting. It's a modified "historical" game set 20 years ago. It is set in the late Dave Webb's campaign city of Metro City, which replaces the San Francisco Bay Area in this modified Champions Universe. The players are a team of new superheroes who are taking upon the mantle of the Protectors, the city's legendary super-team. It's been 5 years since a devastating earthquake (some say it was the work of supervillains, others terrorists, others aliens, others mother nature, and others demons) that wrecked the city, along with a devastating nearly-simultaneous attack by Dr. Destroyer. The Protectors also suffered badly, and its surviving members recruited the PCs to take the place of the fallen and those in mourning.
It is now the year 2000: the new millennium. The players have been tasked with solving a series of high-profile kidnappings plaguing Metro City. The heroes must discover a horrific plot that threatens the entire city or risk the rise of a fresh batch of super-villains.
  HERO 6th Edition: Star Wars Vs Alien Vs Predator: Set between the events of the fall of the Old Republic and Episode IV: A New Hope, with the addition of two of the deadliest monsters in the Sci-Fi/Horror pantheon. The players play a group of Rebels that have crashed-landed on a planet on the edge of the galaxy. They need to repair their ship or find a new one in a barren place without a spaceport. Worse, Xenomorphs have infested the place and the Yautja have decided to make it their hunting ground. Can the players escape or are they doomed?   Kazei 5: More Human Than Human: Set in Michael Surbrook's anime cyberpunk setting, the players are a group of freelancers who work as deniable assets for the best-paying client. Their job starts simple: extract a scientist from a corporate facility. Unfortunately- there's a twist to this job- they have to rescue his daughter too. And then there's the little problem of a rogue Artificial Intelligence. No big deal for a group of experienced mercenaries, right?   Ninja/Martial HERO: World King of the Ring Tournament: The world's best martial artists have been invited to a secret, yet legendary tournament in Hawaii (this time around). The winner gets fame, fortune, and power; and the losers are lucky to survive.  (note: I used the Ninja HERO notation for the game as Ninja is more instantly recognizable in this era than Martial for Martial Arts).

Man I don't know what goes with you; I really don't.   No one- I mean _no one_ is this obtuse without deliberately trying to be.   
 
Every time Brian or anyone else says "system mastery," you go out of your way, even if it requires some quirky sentence structure, to put "learn the system" into his mouth.  Every time.
 
So let's break it down:
 
A six year old can learn math. 
A six year old is not doing my taxes or calculate my fuel load and orbital holding pattern for a manned trip to Mars. 
 
One of two things is at play here:
 
Either you think we are dumb enough to confuse "knowing a few words" with being fluent in Spanish, 
 
Or you think we're dumb enough to believe that you don't know the difference.  As Brian said above, there is a point at which you cross a line into insulting--   no. 
 
That's not right.  There is a point at which anyone can cross a line into insulting.  Generally it's unintentional, and caused by getting wrapped up in the moment or frustrated by an inability to express oneself effectively on previous attempts.  That line is easy to spot, because all we really have to do is look for your house:  it's like you just _live_ there. 
 
All who don't do as Phil are lazy;  all who don't do as Phil are too dumb to learn a thing.  All who don't do as Phil are sad, hopeless little people.....
 
Whi the heck is Phil and why is it so important to him to have both an audience and a target for his feelings of inadequacy? 
 
I sincerely apologized to you for blowing up some time back, because I completely accept that I can come on extremely strong (yes; with apologies to those who might be bothered by it, there are extroverts on the internet) and cause offense by accident.  I have apologized here many times, because I have done it many times.  The difference is intention: I respect the people I choose to socialize with:  I can't tell you how many times I have bumped heads with Hugh over some silly detail, and I could expand that list likely to most everyone on this board. 
 
But at no time did I ever not understand that there are real people  behind every post, and at no time did I ever stop loving those people for who they are, each one, individually.  And most certainly at no time have I considered repeatedly lobbing back-handed insults to them every time I disagree with them.  I have followed most of your threads, looking for the good part of your participation; I have sought council from others here on what to look for in your material to get a handle on what might be crassness and what is probably "just Phil.". And every time I read through something you're active in, it just becomes insults and belittlings to those who disagree--usually in such a way so as to express the idea that thinking as Phil demonstrates some natural intellectual gifts not destined for mere mortals--
 
I don't get it.  I don't get you; I don't know you; I don't know what meds you might have skipped. 
 
I am willing to _try_ to know you, and to try to work with you, but, _Dude_, the constant barrage of insult and belittlement has really got to stop, please. 
 
I am asking that as someone who appreciates the input of everyone here, and who prefers an environment of kinship and cooperation as opposed to an environment of elitist egalitarianism.  If I enjoyed that sort of crowd, I'd have stayed in med school. 
 
Thank you for the time you took to read this. 
 
 
Duke 
 
So to move this along

That's funny; I considered rewriting the part where I said D&D is not a relevant comparison because I know it actually is relevant, but more from the standpoint that it can show some of what is going wrong for "us" and what's going right for "them." As you say, we can't duplicate what "they" do. They simply have a monstrous budget, a huge market share, and the benefit of being synonymous with RPGs to most people on the outside. 

So what you're saying is "Sorry, but not sorry," followed by calling me a liar? Please get a grip, and tone down your ad hominem attacks. Or really, just don't do that at all. Please.
 
Rather than insult you, as you keep doing to me, I'm going to assume that you are familiar with the term "system mastery," which is what I keep saying as opposed to "learn the HERO System," which is what you keep saying. Because they mean two very different things. Either you're exaggerating my position to create a straw man (you are), or you're just being obstinate and don't want to interpret what I'm trying to say in a charitable fashion (seems like you are). Please stop either or both. I'm going to assume that you learned an earlier edition of the game as most of us did. It used to be easy to learn when it was fewer than 100 pages, and could be quickly learned in one sitting and mastered in a matter of several game sessions. 6e is not that, and most people simply cannot sit down and read two volumes of rules and master them, let alone learn them quickly. I'm not exaggerating when I say that I still haven't mastered 6e. I'm competent in it, but jumping from 3e to 6e for me is like learning a different game in many, many ways. Why would I expect anyone new to the system to be able to master the rules in any short amount of time? Especially as adults with very little free time to devote to this sort of activity?
 
Let me offer a non-hypothetical, non-exaggerated example. I've been playing GURPS for almost two years now with a group of guys who can only meet once a month. I participated pretty regularly until I got cancer a year ago and had to take a couple of sessions off while I dealt with chemotherapy. Before the first game session, I looked up GURPS online and found their 4e GURPS Lite PDF, which they offer for free and offers a wonderful overview in 32 pages. I felt ready to play the game with other players who know what they're doing and can help me along. But there are half a dozen other genre books that I need to really learn what we're doing, along with their two core rulebooks. We shifted from fantasy to Traveller at one point, so I had to read and learn several other books entirely (which I didn't). I "learned" the basic rules enough to play, but I am not even close to "knowing" the rules, let alone have any sense of mastery of them. If they told me that I had to run a game next week, I'd quit. I'm not competent enough to create a game in GURPS that is playable. I wouldn't even know how to start.  And no, I'm not exaggerating and certainly am not lying. 
 
You're not an outlier here. You're on a forum with a whole lot of people who love the toolkit as well. But I think maybe it would be best not to confuse your love of the toolkit for what new people not on this forum want to, or can learn. I love the toolkit too, but I'm certainly not going to teach it all to my new players. And I certainly don't expect them to build a game in order to play it the first time. Again, that's graduate level HEROdom. I'm looking for a different model that people can learn quickly and easily in a weekend. 
 
To go back to 
Perhaps you have. It looks like maybe you're looking for a different discussion. This isn't a discussion about why we love building games. I love the two volumes of 6e, and I love fiddling with it on the forums here. But it's unwieldy for beginners, let alone being out of print! Champions/Fantasy HERO Complete are attempts to condense things down to manageable levels for newbies (not us), but they still aren't games yet, only rules for building games. That distinction is what this thread is about, and how a new book could be presented as a game as opposed to a set of rules for building games. 
 
For example, you're suggestion of reissuing the earlier boxed set of Champions is more along the lines of what I was thinking. I've given up on the possibility of any idea of a boxed anything, but going back to the earlier days of one-book games is in the spirit of what I'm trying to investigate here in this particular thread. The things you offered, such as some villains, some adventures, character sheets, and so on, are all in line with what I'm talking about. But I also set the parameter for what I'm looking for outside of Champions and Fantasy HERO, just for the sake of this particular thread. 
 
I like the open discussion, but please folks, let's keep it civil and try to keep it on track. 

That's funny; I considered rewriting the part where I said D&D is not a relevant comparison because I know it actually is relevant, but more from the standpoint that it can show some of what is going wrong for "us" and what's going right for "them." As you say, we can't duplicate what "they" do. They simply have a monstrous budget, a huge market share, and the benefit of being synonymous with RPGs to most people on the outside. 

Yes, exactly. I mentioned the line of Powered by the Apocalypse books earlier as a fantastic model for what I'm thinking. There are so many PbtA games out there, and once someone learns one they've basically learned the formula for each game, although there are different applications of the rules for each game. You don't need to buy the Apocalypse World rules to play any of the other games, nor should you have to. But if you want to make a game that is powered by those rules, you can build it yourself based on the model, and even get the licensing to have it marketed as a PbtA game on their web site. 
 
Seems like a toolbox like HERO System could benefit from a similar approach. It actually did something like this in the '80s. It seems totally doable, and perhaps even in line with how the market is driven nowadays. 

I have seen a lot of games in recent times that are essentially extended adventure packs.  They use a ruleset that folk are broadly familiar with but tweaked for the game.  It looks to me that the expectation is that you can be up and running quickly, there is enough in the "game" to run five or six sessions.
 
At the end of that the GM might go on to do his own, or he might go out and buy a different game, that would also be good for five or six sessions.
 
At a price of $50-60, this is exceptionally good value.  For two nights entertainment for two people, this would be good value.
 
As such, I reckon that kind of book would be a decent model.  A full game, powered by HERO.  Essentially a taster of the kind of game you "could" build yourself.
 
This month we play Teen Titans, next month we play A Team, the month after we play Firefly.  Each one, fundamentally the same system with the same gameplay (3D6, skills, damage resolution) but with differences.
 
It is a long term way to sell product, each game has a few gaming sessions built in to utilise the game to its best effect.  It provides an experience to the time poor and novelty seekers.  It provides insight and example to those system masters who own the Big Blue Books...
 
Brian's book sounds, to me, something along those lines. 
 
Doc
 
 

Also for the record I not suggesting a rules lite. What I said is to have a module that tells the GM what are the specific minimal rules needed to play. You know a tool box. Does a character need Accurate Leap  for example? No, not for a beginner game. FWIW we don’t use it either in our games. It’s only on some sheets cause we have that one GM if it’s an option then he’d force it.  It’s an option there so that if a group wants to use it later, it’s there to be added in.
 
Also when I brought up the D&D thing, the Youtubers weren’t talking about D&D basic. They were talking about using for your first game the bare minimum rules and characters to get you to GM and players to play.

As to System mastery, here’s two points I’d like to point out. All civil I promise!
 
1) I’ve seen several videos for new GMs for D&D is get the basic rules and run. If you forget a rule during play, just make something up and look it up after the game. So D&D (and mind you Afaik they are fan based not WotC) aren’t asking you to know all the tiles first nor master them.
 
2) I’ve been saying for awhile that just because 6e or the Completes have have more options than say 2e, you can RUN a game similar to 2e in build complexity.  Yeah It should probably have  a sheet that shows all the dials turned (mostly off 😜) And have a note saying that when you want to add more complexity in what area you want you can.  I believe that 6e is intimidating because the notion is that you MUST know all the rules first before play. I say phooey! 

Back in the pre-4e days, the game was 80 pages (2e) focused on Supers gaming (many of those pages were sample characters, for example, and I recall a walkthrough building two Superheroes to spell out the character generation system.  Let's look at 6e - 80 pages into V1, I made it to the "Languages" skill.
 
I am one of those "whiny, lazy gamers" who no longer has a full day or two to read and digest a new rule book, and no longer has the time to play a few hours most evenings and all day for one or two days on the weekend.  I am no longer very interested in learning new game systems either.
 
 
Let's rephrase that:  do we try to change the way the game is presented (that is, reduce both the actual and perceived work required before the game can actually begin) or do we try to change the perceptions, attitudes and time commitments of all of the potential players?  I will suggest that only one of these is remotely practical.   But it requires some people who are familiar with Hero to stop whining about how other gamers don't want to put in the work, and get over their laziness to design a game which will present Hero in a good light and draw in those gamers.
 
 
I play a lot more Pathfinder and D&D over the past 10+ years than Hero.  With the same guys I also played Hero with for many years.  THEY TAKE LESS WORK TO PREPARE FOR AND PLAY, especially from the GM.
 
 
No - that is why they choose to play games they can pick up and create/maintain characters for relatively quickly (which, for me at least, still includes Hero - but only because I already know the system), and for which they can get a GM.  That GM selects a system for which he can find support (like an Adventure Path) so he can spend a day or two of reading to prepare for several hours of gaming, not a week or two of design work to prepare for the same several hours of gaming.
 
That is our group defined in three lines, so I know I am not making this up.
 
 
I remain uncertain what the best marketing strategy for Hero might be.  I am 100% confident that a strategy of telling gamers "Hey, get off your whiny backsides and learn Hero, you lazy gamers, you" will not see Hero's market share jump.
 
 
And we have heard a lot of experienced gamers suggest the more likely answers.  I will summarize what I hear from this and other threads.
 
 
Because they require much less investment of scarce and valuable time than Hero.
 
 
Because they require much less investment of scarce and valuable time than Hero.  In other words, their designers cater to the market.
 
 
HELL YEAH! to both.  More to the point, they want to PLAY a game, not BUILD a game.
 
 
Yes, they are.
 
 
First, until they learn it and play it, they do not know with confidence that it IS better than their current game.  "This game is better" is hardly an objective, verifiable fact.
 
And they do not want to investment of scarce and valuable time (are you starting to hear that message?) in an unknown commodity, much less one they have heard has a poor return on that investment (whether or not what they heard is correct).
 
 
People have limited time.  They would rather spend 100 hours gaming and 20 hours learning/preparing/designing than 20 hours of gaming that is TEN TIMES as fun, but requires they invest 100 hours of learning/preparing/designing.
 
100 FUN/20 LPD = 5:1
 
20*10 FUN = 200/100 LPD = 2:1
 
5:1 ROI is much better than 2:1 ROI.
 
 
And yet you assume that it will be as easy or even easier, to change the human condition than to change the game to appeal to the human condition.

Yup, @Chris Goodwin pretty much knows where I'm coming from. My previous post traces some of my thinking, and @Hugh Neilson does a good job of outlining the challenges I'm facing. There's plenty of evidence that the people who are already playing are going to continue to play what they prefer in the ways that they already prefer. There's also good evidence that new people aren't picking up HERO System because it's like drinking from the fire hose, and who is going to invest a year of solid study to get the system mastery that it would take to even begin to design a game that others may want to play?
 
@Gnome BODY (important!): As for GURPS, just as few people play that these days as HERO System, although the marketing machine of Steve Jackson Games keeps it going. God help us if they release a 5th edition of GURPS, because it'd probably bury HERO System for good. But the other systems you bring up are clearly more viable these days. Fate and Fate Accelerated are very popular these days, and draw in new gamers all the time. It's funny that you mention Powered By the Apocolypse, because that's sort of the model I was thinking of when I started this thread. PBTA games are introduced so frequently, and are bought and played so consistently, that I think it stands as a good model for today's market. Each game using PBTA as the toolbox is its own game, and presents the rules in its own way, making its own assumptions about how to apply the rules, etc. PBTA has a proven track record that it can power new game generation. HERO System likes to boast that it could do such a thing, but it simply doesn't. Champions isn't a game: it's still a game genre and a toolbox of rules, but there aren't any decisions made that are required in an actual game. PBTA always has a handful of new games being played at conventions, and has a very strong online presence (from what I can tell) with a new generation of gamers who want rules-light games that can be learned and played in a weekend. My contention is that HERO System should be like that.
 
Now, I'm with you in spirit about the Powers. That's what makes HERO System what it is. But the marketing says that we can use those Powers to build anything without actually showing us what those things could be. Unless of course you buy a genre book, a setting book, perhaps an enemies book and and equipment guide, etc. This is the exact opposite of what DOJ should be doing, yet it's been the model for almost 30 years now. It's time to rethink what the HERO System is about. And I'm rethinking things for the future by re-visiting the past games that were "one book games" in the '80s. The Powers were in the background, and sorta bled through at times in something like Justice, Inc. with the weird talents and such. But they were great applications of the HERO System without simply being a rehash of the same set of rules with a new genre spackled over them.
 
I don't want to presume to lecture anyone on the value of the game, or the history of HERO System or anything like that. As has been pointed out, we all have our ways of playing the game. But we are experienced HERO players here, and can actually pick the rules up and make the games we want to play for ourselves. We seem to forget that new people just cannot do that yet. So we need to be able to show them how it is done. This is most definitely for players who are new to the HERO System toolbox, and we teach them by not exposing them to the toolbox. We show them a game that is complete in and of itself, presented in one book, and playable as quickly as possible. This is not going to be a superhero or fantasy genre. It just isn't. We'd have hit that market if it was going to work.
 
So I'm imaging a game that has mass appeal, that sparks the public imagination and taps into a cultural trend. It may not be the sexiest application of the HERO System, but I think a modern adventure game based on action movies is a great inroad. We don't have to teach the Powers, but we can show how all the equipment, weapon and vehicle lists were made with the Powers, although the builds themselves should be saved for an appendix and sidebars. People who don't care, won't care no matter how much we try to teach them the powers. People who do care will have enough leads to go look up the rules themselves and build their own stuff if they want to.
 
This is just a thought experiment for now, but hopefully not a vanity project like Champions Now is. I want it to be viable, and potentially have a convention/market/online presence. That can only happen with a complete gestalt shift for how the HERO System is presented to new players.

Yup, @Chris Goodwin pretty much knows where I'm coming from. My previous post traces some of my thinking, and @Hugh Neilson does a good job of outlining the challenges I'm facing. There's plenty of evidence that the people who are already playing are going to continue to play what they prefer in the ways that they already prefer. There's also good evidence that new people aren't picking up HERO System because it's like drinking from the fire hose, and who is going to invest a year of solid study to get the system mastery that it would take to even begin to design a game that others may want to play?
 
@Gnome BODY (important!): As for GURPS, just as few people play that these days as HERO System, although the marketing machine of Steve Jackson Games keeps it going. God help us if they release a 5th edition of GURPS, because it'd probably bury HERO System for good. But the other systems you bring up are clearly more viable these days. Fate and Fate Accelerated are very popular these days, and draw in new gamers all the time. It's funny that you mention Powered By the Apocolypse, because that's sort of the model I was thinking of when I started this thread. PBTA games are introduced so frequently, and are bought and played so consistently, that I think it stands as a good model for today's market. Each game using PBTA as the toolbox is its own game, and presents the rules in its own way, making its own assumptions about how to apply the rules, etc. PBTA has a proven track record that it can power new game generation. HERO System likes to boast that it could do such a thing, but it simply doesn't. Champions isn't a game: it's still a game genre and a toolbox of rules, but there aren't any decisions made that are required in an actual game. PBTA always has a handful of new games being played at conventions, and has a very strong online presence (from what I can tell) with a new generation of gamers who want rules-light games that can be learned and played in a weekend. My contention is that HERO System should be like that.
 
Now, I'm with you in spirit about the Powers. That's what makes HERO System what it is. But the marketing says that we can use those Powers to build anything without actually showing us what those things could be. Unless of course you buy a genre book, a setting book, perhaps an enemies book and and equipment guide, etc. This is the exact opposite of what DOJ should be doing, yet it's been the model for almost 30 years now. It's time to rethink what the HERO System is about. And I'm rethinking things for the future by re-visiting the past games that were "one book games" in the '80s. The Powers were in the background, and sorta bled through at times in something like Justice, Inc. with the weird talents and such. But they were great applications of the HERO System without simply being a rehash of the same set of rules with a new genre spackled over them.
 
I don't want to presume to lecture anyone on the value of the game, or the history of HERO System or anything like that. As has been pointed out, we all have our ways of playing the game. But we are experienced HERO players here, and can actually pick the rules up and make the games we want to play for ourselves. We seem to forget that new people just cannot do that yet. So we need to be able to show them how it is done. This is most definitely for players who are new to the HERO System toolbox, and we teach them by not exposing them to the toolbox. We show them a game that is complete in and of itself, presented in one book, and playable as quickly as possible. This is not going to be a superhero or fantasy genre. It just isn't. We'd have hit that market if it was going to work.
 
So I'm imaging a game that has mass appeal, that sparks the public imagination and taps into a cultural trend. It may not be the sexiest application of the HERO System, but I think a modern adventure game based on action movies is a great inroad. We don't have to teach the Powers, but we can show how all the equipment, weapon and vehicle lists were made with the Powers, although the builds themselves should be saved for an appendix and sidebars. People who don't care, won't care no matter how much we try to teach them the powers. People who do care will have enough leads to go look up the rules themselves and build their own stuff if they want to.
 
This is just a thought experiment for now, but hopefully not a vanity project like Champions Now is. I want it to be viable, and potentially have a convention/market/online presence. That can only happen with a complete gestalt shift for how the HERO System is presented to new players.

Yup, @Chris Goodwin pretty much knows where I'm coming from. My previous post traces some of my thinking, and @Hugh Neilson does a good job of outlining the challenges I'm facing. There's plenty of evidence that the people who are already playing are going to continue to play what they prefer in the ways that they already prefer. There's also good evidence that new people aren't picking up HERO System because it's like drinking from the fire hose, and who is going to invest a year of solid study to get the system mastery that it would take to even begin to design a game that others may want to play?
 
@Gnome BODY (important!): As for GURPS, just as few people play that these days as HERO System, although the marketing machine of Steve Jackson Games keeps it going. God help us if they release a 5th edition of GURPS, because it'd probably bury HERO System for good. But the other systems you bring up are clearly more viable these days. Fate and Fate Accelerated are very popular these days, and draw in new gamers all the time. It's funny that you mention Powered By the Apocolypse, because that's sort of the model I was thinking of when I started this thread. PBTA games are introduced so frequently, and are bought and played so consistently, that I think it stands as a good model for today's market. Each game using PBTA as the toolbox is its own game, and presents the rules in its own way, making its own assumptions about how to apply the rules, etc. PBTA has a proven track record that it can power new game generation. HERO System likes to boast that it could do such a thing, but it simply doesn't. Champions isn't a game: it's still a game genre and a toolbox of rules, but there aren't any decisions made that are required in an actual game. PBTA always has a handful of new games being played at conventions, and has a very strong online presence (from what I can tell) with a new generation of gamers who want rules-light games that can be learned and played in a weekend. My contention is that HERO System should be like that.
 
Now, I'm with you in spirit about the Powers. That's what makes HERO System what it is. But the marketing says that we can use those Powers to build anything without actually showing us what those things could be. Unless of course you buy a genre book, a setting book, perhaps an enemies book and and equipment guide, etc. This is the exact opposite of what DOJ should be doing, yet it's been the model for almost 30 years now. It's time to rethink what the HERO System is about. And I'm rethinking things for the future by re-visiting the past games that were "one book games" in the '80s. The Powers were in the background, and sorta bled through at times in something like Justice, Inc. with the weird talents and such. But they were great applications of the HERO System without simply being a rehash of the same set of rules with a new genre spackled over them.
 
I don't want to presume to lecture anyone on the value of the game, or the history of HERO System or anything like that. As has been pointed out, we all have our ways of playing the game. But we are experienced HERO players here, and can actually pick the rules up and make the games we want to play for ourselves. We seem to forget that new people just cannot do that yet. So we need to be able to show them how it is done. This is most definitely for players who are new to the HERO System toolbox, and we teach them by not exposing them to the toolbox. We show them a game that is complete in and of itself, presented in one book, and playable as quickly as possible. This is not going to be a superhero or fantasy genre. It just isn't. We'd have hit that market if it was going to work.
 
So I'm imaging a game that has mass appeal, that sparks the public imagination and taps into a cultural trend. It may not be the sexiest application of the HERO System, but I think a modern adventure game based on action movies is a great inroad. We don't have to teach the Powers, but we can show how all the equipment, weapon and vehicle lists were made with the Powers, although the builds themselves should be saved for an appendix and sidebars. People who don't care, won't care no matter how much we try to teach them the powers. People who do care will have enough leads to go look up the rules themselves and build their own stuff if they want to.
 
This is just a thought experiment for now, but hopefully not a vanity project like Champions Now is. I want it to be viable, and potentially have a convention/market/online presence. That can only happen with a complete gestalt shift for how the HERO System is presented to new players.

More and more I am convinced that you are right about one thing: someone has to take the lead. We need a Kevin Feige producer type to spearhead the effort and be the singular creative visionary. This whole business of working it out by committee will lead absolutely nowhere, as the last n years of debate over this subject can attest to.
 
This person, armed with the conviction that they have the answer for success, needs to take their ideas and show the rest of us how right they are. I would do this myself except I have only the strength of my convictions; I don't have the time, money, or talent to turn what I believe must be done into reality. If I had the money, I would retire and make this my new mission, but last I checked I still haven't won the Megabucks lottery.

Oh, well fair enough then! Good luck!

It is not going to sell because it is Powered by Hero.  It is going to sell, if it sells at all, because it is a good game, and players and GMs enjoy it.  If they enjoy GURPS, or d20, or Savage Worlds, or playing video games, more, then they will buy those games.
 
It's not labelling it as "elegant and fun", "balanced" or anything else that will make it sell.  It will sell if people play it, like it and want more.  They are not currently buying the "build your own power" system.  They have to want to dig through that design system because they have seen what it can do, they like it and they want to learn to use it to build their own games.  Us telling them "hey, it's great - it's elegant, fun and balanced, reverses hair loss and makes your teeth whiter" is not going to sell the system.  Playing the system sells the system.  Right now, they are daunted by the Wall of Words, and will not play the system, so we need to front load that work so they can play a game without a Doctorate in Hero-ology.
 
And if some of them are happy just playing the game(s) Powered by Hero, not tinkering at all and not wanting to build their own game - well that's fine too.

Currently?  They don't.
 
We have evidence that it turns people off.  If people can't get through it to the elegant game system underneath... 
 
...we end up where we are right now.

Out of curiosity, what is the ultimate goal of this proposed "product"? What does it seek to accomplish in the grand scheme of things?

My thought would be to provide the uninitiated with something they could buy and play without having to invest in the power rules (everything else is easy).
 
It would seek to have a proportion of those that enjoy the game, to want to houserule it to expand the options, drawing them therefore into the HERO fold.  It might be, if you had a suite of such products, people would play a slew of such things and never want to look into the black box.
 
Ultimately it would be an easy step for groups who do not have a HERO afficionado to be able to play a HERO game.

We don't have to sell Hero to people who have played Hero for years or decades, like those of us on these boards.  But it is clear we are not a big enough market to keep a business making Hero product afloat.
 
Hero as a game design tool can allow the construction of a game Powered By Hero, which (hopefully) demonstrates that the system itself is elegant and fun, and that the construction rules are balanced (as they were used to build all components of the game or games).  So we end up with three pools of buyers/gamers:
 
 - those who like these specific games, and will buy them (either one specific game, or multiple games using the system in different settings, genres, etc.), and support materials for them, into the future;
 - those who like the game, but want to tinker with it, so they buy the System rules for the sole purpose of tinkering with existing games; and
 - those who are introduced to Hero System and want the whole system to build their own games (maybe even games that are marketed and attract more gamers to Hero).

This is certainly very doable from a purely logistical perspective. The work required wouldn't be excessive, the cost wouldn't be prohibitive, and it would be a nice shout-out to the past. It would also do nothing, IMO, to move the needle away from the current marketplace indifference towards the system/brand.