Brian Stanfield

Here's a start for you, Brian:
 
MOVEMENT:  character may move 24" per Turn. Divide his desired movement for that Turn by his twice his Reaction score (SPD as we know it now).  He may move up to that number in Hexes per Action, and he gets 2 Actions per Reaction Phase.   There is no preset order, meaning he may Attack and then Move, if he wishes.
 
By default, his initial 24" are Considered to be ground Movement.  The Character may buy additional hexes of Movement for X pts per additional hex.  The character must define the type of movement at the time it is bought:
 
Ground Movement, Water Movement, Flying (select Air or Space; Space allows a default "Air movement only to achieve spaceflight), Teleporting, or Moving through solid matter. 
 
 
There; you're off to a grand start: you are using the HERO system and have preset some dials: all movement costs the same.  There is no FTL, (at least not as a power; it may exist externaly as a story-enabler, but that's it) and no Extra Dimensional movement.  There's a bit of your setting already in place: there is only one dimension.  Adventures don't occur too far beyond earth orbit.  
 
You've eliminated the hassles of Teleport:  no hard fast rules for locations, etc: if you can see it or know exactly where it's at and it's within you're range, then you can teleport to it: no locations to buy and distribute; none of the screwing around with momentum and facing and all that crap: you decide, and you decide it every time.  Much better that way in terms of understanding the rules for it and eliminates who knows how many fights about the "right way to build a teleport." 
 
You've set a dial with "move through matter." it says you can move through solid matter, and it's back to being a movement power like it was years ago, only without the ratio and math and defense, etc: you can move X hexes per Action on any of your Reaction Phases (Two Actions per Reaction Phase).  It is clearly spelled out as moving through matter, a. Movement power, and thus can't be used for "Desolidification: only versus damage" builds.  If you want a character to be immune via desolid, do it with defenses, and use "it goes right through me" as your SFX.  Better still, we don't have to sicker around with "affects desolid" or "affects solid" or declare what happens when two desolid meet, of what sorts of SFX should work anyway because we have to pick a couple of them. 
 
Did a bullet do enough damage to hurt through your "desolid" defenses?  Fine.  That's the way it works in this game: perhaps the air pressure of the bullet across its tiny cone tip bruised some of your molecules, or the super-intense heat of the bullet itself shocked your nervous system-- whatever.  The switch is thrown: desolid is movement and not invulnerable to X. 
 
Even  better, (man, look how many dials you set with just that tiny section on movement!  I'm impressed, Sir!      .), you will never run into this ultra-hilarious problem:
 
"Pyromancer sizes you up, his fingers flexing and stretching like an old west gunfighter.  The spray nozzles on the backs of his gauntlets belch four short, jet-engine-loud roaring balls of fire toward the ground on either side of him, instantly dissappating and leaving only the soot-scorched concrete and dizzying chemical smell to testify to their passing.  His breathing sounds metallic, almost mechanical through his respirator, and all you see in his goggles is your reflections, illuminated by the tower of living fire behind him.  There is no doubt that he is sizing in you up, waiting to see which of you will move first..." 
 
"Oh, I'm not worried.  I have that desoldification versus fire because my dad was a fire demon and my mother was an asbestos Real Doll, so I'm just immune.  I activate my desolid versus fire and wait." 
 
"Your nonchalance tells him all he needs to know-- in an instant, almost faster than you can register the movement he has lunged forward, twin jets of flame creating overlapping cones of dry flesh-searing death!"  (rolls dice) as he hits you with 14D6 of Area Affect white-hot affects-desolid fury, already lunging to the side in anticipation of your counter-attack....   "The scent of grilled pork assails your nostrils as your nerve endings scream in agony.  You take (counts damage) --"
 
"Wait!  It's fire!  I'm immune!" 
 
"No; you're not. "
 
"But I bought Desolid, only versus fire, light, and heat-based attacks." 
 
"And he has 'Affects Desolid.'"
 
"But I'm immune!"
 
"No; you're Desolid."
 
"But I was using Desolid to model immunity...." 
 
"Well that was stupid." 
 
"But I'm immune...."
 
 
 
And it goes on like that for _so many_ 4e creations, and probably 5 as well; who knows?
 
But you flipped the hell out of that switch, and now it's a non-starter: Desolid does t defend, so we don't need affects desolid. 
 
 
Moving on:
 
Ranged attack
 
Ranged attack: Cone:
 
Ranged attack Explosion. 
 
You're done.  Set your pricing per die for each, decide if cone is going to have any range or if it's going to start right in front of the character; Player decides at time of purchase if Attack is Indirect or not indirect (no price difference), and you're done. 
 
Price characteristics in blocks-- what is it, is it still 3 points of INT and Ego for the next plus-one on each roll?  Sell them in blocks of three.  Sell STR in blocks of 5
 
(im not keen on that, but consider this alternative: do away with some of the stats: INT goes away and becomes a 9or less roll, +1 for three points.  That's your base chance to perform INT-based skills.   Do the same with DEX.  Replace Con-stunning with a Con Roll (modified by damage, maybe?  It's youy dial; twist it how you want) and you don't need Con anymore: make a saving through. 
 
Simplify defenses:
 
He shot me with a gun!
 
What's your Def? 
 
He shot me with a lightning! 
 
What's your Def? 
 
Eliminate hardened and armor piercing and any other Def mods but one- no; it doesn't have to be Killing, but I'd recommend it just because it's pretty dadgum common in the HERO System everything. 
 
Screw martial arts:
 
Make a list of...  I don't know: fifty combat maneuvers.  Thats it, period.  Pick any 5 or 6 (or X points worth) and call it a martial Art. You don't need to rewrite Martial Hero to get a fun, playable amount of stuff In there. 
 
Alternatively, create a list of thirty free-to-all combat maneuvers.  Make martial arts a damage adder to those maneuvers.  Or create a list of maneuver elements, and the Skill: martial arts that let's you pick up to ever-how-many-you-made-your-roll-by elements that you can add to your combat Maneuver chart (one at a time) during this combat, unless you roll a 3 or something. 
 
Simplifying hero - that is, picking the switches and such you want to set in stone for a single game isn't hard; really it's not.  It just takes the want-to, the time (that's were I lose out), and the strength of character to ignore everyone telling you what you can't do in your own game. 
 
Gotta run.  Just got home and I have to feed the kids. 
 
Later! 

Maybe that should be a Hero Selling Point - don't want to wait for the Splatbook that finally provides the character option you want?  Buy the Hero Toolkit and make the character options you want.

The ideal I have in mind is to use a game like this as an incentive for players to want to buy the toolkit and fiddle with it themselves. This is basically what we did back in the '80s (right, @Duke Bushido?) and is not a new concept, or even a difficult one to grasp. We can go to the HERO store, for example, and buy HERO Designer, but for people who are really curious, they have the option to buy the source code for HD and fiddle with it themselves. Same concept: HERO System is the source code and programming language. The game is the consumer-side interface.
 
 
I may have to create an entire game with nothing but heroes bitten by kangaroos. . . .
 
The supers genre is a bit more complex to figure out, at least for me. People have so many ideas of what they want to do, it seems a hard sell to create a game with only some of the powers included. I know that's not exactly what you mean, but by the time you create several kind of Blast options (AoE, NND, Indirect, or whatever variations), you may as well simply use the entire Powers list and expect people to figure it out. I think maybe this is the PhD of HERO System gaming. I think this is peculiar only to the supers genre though. 
 
I think it fits really well for Fantasy HERO though, with specific spell lists and such. People are already "trained" to use spell lists, magical items lists, special skill lists, and stuff like that from D&D or whatever else game they came from. 
 
In each case though, if this were to be the model for supers or fantasy, I think maybe they'd have to start with a setting in order to explain and understand the "settings" for the Powers in the game. We don't have to reveal the builds, but we do have to explain why wizards can't use armor, or why there are two spell systems (arcane and divine, for instance), or whatever else. These decisions imply a setting, and half the setting work is already done by the time these decisions are made. Again, I think it works less well for supers, but maybe it's still workable. 
 
Can you imagine if a new setting book came out for Champions that made these sort of decisions? Do you think it would work, at least as a starting point for new gamers? Experienced HERO players may not like a more setting-limited approach, but non-HERO people may. Since Champions was the first game I learned after a few years of D&D, I'm used to its wide open approach. I'd be a bit disappointed if I could only select from pre-defined powers lists. In fact, this is why I never picked up other supers games, because they seemed to be too limited. I can't tell if others would feel the same.

I'm an IT guy who has been in the military.  I feel your pain.   I've learned over time to let it go; I can now actively enjoy "Hollywood hacking" for what it is, and the US military at least has been working with movie producers to turn their films into recruiting posters reduce the inaccuracies in military portrayals.  

I love seafaring and ships, but most of the ones in Fantasy RPG's are abysmal and written by people with 0 understanding.  Most of the Fantasy RPG's are throwing out ships and ship tech that is actually closer to that aircraft carrier than what they would have at the comparable setting. 
God save me from another 18th century tall ship in a 700AD setting, or even worse a 1200BC setting.  Yes, magic adds its elements, but for any small bit of sanity, just f'ing google the names of ship types that may possibly have existed within 500 years of each other.  It isn't hard.
 
Arrghhhhh,.... sometimes my eyes just want to bleed. 
 

You are correct with the copyright, but Hero Games was using the term "HERO System" as early as 2e to advertise "Espionage!"  (punctuation still mandatory) and the failed-to-materialize "Privateer" games.  There are instances of it in adds in the Adventurers Club, Space Gamer, and Dragon.  When I have time, I intend to do a logo rip from one of the adds, as it's the best-looking "HERO System" logo, in my opinion, and I thought it might look nice on character sheets.  
 
I can't find any proof of it, but I think Privateer may have been finally quashed forever during the I.C.E. Age, when Iron Crown released "Pirates" with dual compatibility (ha!  Apparently this meant "dual stat blocks, because little else was translated from Role Master to HERO) for Role master and Fantasy HERO (Fantasy HERO 1e for those who categorize like Chris does; Fantasy HERO 3e for those who categorize as I do:  based on which edition of the Champions rules currently being used to run the game)
 
 

Emphasis added.  Hero fans tend to "it all has to be there".  The key to a Game Powered by Hero" is not that things like the builds and every option do not have to be there.    It is that the have to not be there.  This is a game, not a system with which you can design a game. 
 
We, the game designer, decide not to include animal handling skills, animal stats, etc. and a player wants an attack falcon?  Just like every other game, you either suck it up (not in the rules), whine to the designers that we need an "animals" sourcebook to cover this stuff, or make your own.  Unlike other games, you have the option to buy the game designer's toolkit and build it in accordance with the game system's rules and assumptions.
 
 
Could we make a Fantasy or Supers game?  Sure.  But it has to be a game.  It would not have a box of mechanics - go build your own magic system/spells/superpowers.  It would have one or more pre-designed magic systems.  That's how magic works in this game.  Maybe EVERYONE who casts spells needs a wand, or a familiar, or cannot be in contact with metal - because that is how magic works in this game.
 
Superpowers might be fixed, or variable in power.  Maybe we use the USPD model and they come in different power levels, but not "buy 1d6 for x points", or maybe they are fully scalable.  Maybe some superpowers don't exist in our game - say, no mental powers.  Perhaps the only source of powers is an x-gene.  Nope, no aliens or "bitten by a radioactive kangarooo" or empowered by ancient mythological deities.  That is not part of this game.
 
But Action Hero is as good a choice as any, and doesn't need as much "pregenerated X list".

Like I said, I don't want to rehash the edition wars thread. But if 3e was the first time they started marketing the "HERO System," (copyright 1984), then the two games I keep discussing are examples of how the "system" could be pared down to genre specific games. That was their whole point in the first place. As I point out in the original post, things have gotten very widespread in terms of the types of books presented, but what is not included nowadays are "complete games" that stand alone. Yes, the marketing says CC and FHC are "complete" games, but as I also tried to show in the original post, they are far from "complete" and without need for any other product. 

I'm not so sure of that. I gave a copy of 6e Basic to all my players so we could play a Pulp HERO game, and it prepared them for absolutely nothing for the game. First, they didn't really read the rules because once they hit the Powers section, they just gave up trying to understand how it works. Sure, experienced HERO players would have no problem, but my player who wanted to play a private eye with WWI experience in small arms and counterintelligence, couldn't figure out how to even begin to present it in game terms. Sure, I could refer him to at least 3 other books (Pulp HERO, Equipment guide, Hudson City), but those are non-committal to which rules apply to a game as well.
 
I've had to create everything for the game from scratch, which is fine because I've got the experience to do it. But the whole point of this thread is about how nice it would be if there was one single book that had all the relevant information in it. Yes, 4e, 5e, and 6e all offer toolboxes, but that means absolutely nothing to inexperienced players. I sat in a session at Origins with some guys who wanted to learn the HERO System, and they came out of the 4 hour session having learned nothing other than that you probably shouldn't be playing it if you don't already know how to play it. And that, in a nutshell, is the problem I'm trying to address. Justice, Inc. and Danger International were complete games, and I didn't need anything else to learn them or play them. The toolbox system is great for folks who like to fiddle and build their own games. It's genius at that! But it's not a complete game, and it doesn't help anybody new learn the game.

I would agree that the 4e HSR expresses a complete set of game mechanics. But it isn't a complete game in and of itself because the reader still has to do all the work of creating a setting, creating a crisis or adventure hook, creating all the antagonists, creatures, people and places, etc. For those rare few left today with the time, experience, and talent for all that world-building, they only need the mechanics/toolkit. They don't need the HERO System to provide them with an actual game to play; they are essentially going to create that themselves. But most first-timers today aren't going to do that. The brand needs to recognize that fact and do a lot of that work for them, freeing the players up to merely tweak and adjust to taste and then get on with the business of playing out the quests/missions/etc.

We got a 5e revamp of Dark Champions (and Dark Champions: the Animated Series).
 
We got Dark Champions in 4e  (there's a rather scathing review of it in Dungeon Magazine #197 because of the gun porn / murder hero angle; I can't say I disagree with it).
 
seriously, though: the edition thing---   it's all in my sig line (the cataloguing thing).  Click the link; you want page 2 of the spreadsheet; pages 1 and 3 are just workspaces to keep the other space clear.  It's all sorted by "HERO System" Edition, alphabetical within the editions.  It's a work in progress, so cut me some slack.  Feel free to PM me if you find errors or omissions.

I call them "first-gen" or "pre-4th edition stand alone games".  When I say "FH 1e" I mean the first stand alone Fantasy Hero book; FH for 4th edition is called "second edition" on the front matter.  
 
I don't think there were much in the way of Champions edition changes that were reflected in those games.  The spell design system in Fantasy Hero 1e was based on the Champions power creation system but used its own costs and had its own quirks; Star Hero 1e was probably the closest to being a Hero System "3.5 edition".  

I'm not here to bust your chops, Sir.  I am here to deliver amusing information, but in order to do that, I have to point out that both of those are actually _third_ edition games.  Danger, International really got no support: there was "Here There be Tigers," an adventure published in 1986 claiming to support both Danger International and its predecessor: Espionage! (the exclamation point, apparently, is mandatory), which, like the majority of HERO games support material, introduced new "core rule" things like Skills in addition to a couple of bestiary contenders.
 
Interestingly, Espionage, published in 1983, received its first bit of support material ("Border Crossing" from HERO Games) in 1983, and nothing else from HERO Games.  However, many MSPE products (notably those written by the truly talented Michael Stackpole) would continue to include "Champions" characteristic blocks for the characters inside and list themselves as being compatible with---  Espionage!, even after the publication of Danger, international.  In fact, support for Espionage continued on deep into the _FOURTH EDITION_, with the last product known as listing itself to support Espionage! being published for the first time in 1992!  (I am sorry; I do not know the date of the one reprint of that adventure).
 
Seems I'm not the only person who liked 2e the most.     Thank you, Mr. Stackpole, who, with Deb Wykle, published Mugshots Number 2: Taking Care of Business,  proudly proclaiming support for 2e even after _3e_ was gone and nigh-forgotten.
 
(just try to ignore the little note in the introduction that refers you to Mugshots Number 1 for the reason that these books were seven years behind schedule.    )
 
 
Yep.  That had no purpose other than to entertain you, Brian.  
 
I hope you enjoyed it.  
 
 
 
I've got to level with you:  I would think, personally, that Supers or Fantasy would be the _easiest_ to create a "complete" game for, simply because, as others have pointed out, there is so much social tradition and social consciousness behind them: we have a cultural awareness of, if you will, "what superheroes are" and what their world looks like.  Seriously:  take a survey.  Stand around at a busy mall---
 
wait.  Scratch that.  I don't think there's been one of those since Mugshots Number 2 was published....
 
Stand around a busy grocery store and see how many people will play this game:
 
Excuse me, Ma'am.  I'm taking a survey-- no; I don't need your name.  I would like to say something to you, and tell me the first name that comes to mind:  "Super hero."
 
Of course, you will have three columns on your record sheet:  Superman, Spiderman, and "other."
 
See what I mean?
 
As a general rule, we "just know" that superheroes operate in a world that is, more or less, our modern world.  All you need for "setting" is the locations of the individual scenes, and cultural awareness sort of fills in the rest.
 
Don't believe me?  When was the last time you saw someone playing "Underground?"  Yes; it was a superhero game, and I mean it was a _damned weird_ one!  Do some wikipedia on that thing, if you've got time to be both fascinated and horrified.
 
 
Same sort of thing goes with Fantasy:  One column for Tolkien / D&D; one column for Conan / Red Sonja, one column for "other."
 
All you really need to do is set the tone, imply a frequency of magic, and list a few creatures you might encounter:  "manticore, Balrog, wyvern,"  or "Horse, bear, wolf."  You've done your work.  Describe the locations of the action scenes, and done.
 
 
It's those things with which are less-aware as a culture that would present the biggest problem.  Honestly, i figured that's why Justice, Inc had such a nice campaign book in the first place, while Champions and Fantasy HERO (the early works for each) really didn't:  Supers and fantasy needed less explaining to jump in and have a good time.  
 
Anyway, I've got a few other things to take care of.
 
Enjoy your new trivia!
 

This is pretty funny, and not so far off from the truth!
 
 
This is more like what I'm thinking. 6e has some real potential if the two volumes remain in the background as sourcebooks and not as the games themselves. Most of those volumes are examples, rulings, suggestions, and all sorts of collected wisdom from 30 years of HERO, and are invaluable as far as I'm concerned. But they don't need to be presented, or re-presented en toto in each new game! Just enough is all we need.
 
You've given me plenty to think about in your usual rants about 2e vs. 6e. I'm starting to lean your way in terms of your desire for simplicity. But I also love the 6e rules, and believe that they can be presented in simpler form. This is why I'm looking at a way to try to present them in a new game where the Powers and Modifiers don't need to be presented, and the equipment and such can be given in lists (yay lists!) rather than "builds." 
 
Remember what it used to be like to get a new game and go directly to all the equipment and skills lists to see what the game could let you do? Wouldn't that be nice, without having to grind through all the Powers and Modifiers? Just a thought . . . 

I'm in an open-table game (two actually) with a fair amount of players showing up and dropping out.  I can confirm that HERO works great for newbies when somebody else makes them a character and that character doesn't have any weird bits or excessive bells and whistles. 

I would caveat that.  HERO is probably not for a group where NOONE has played TTRPGs before.  Given a good GM with HERO experience, willing to put in some groundwork, it is no worse than any other game.
 
Doc

@ScottishFox
 
Exactly.  Hero is a system for designing a game.  What we need to bring in gamers are some games designed with Hero.

I'd argue that it is just fine for beginners provided you insulate them from the power building crunch.  Either have canned abilities / talents at fixed prices or do the work for them.
My wife is both math adverse and had only a single season of D&D 5e under her belt when I switched it to HERO.  She still refers to our Fantasy HERO Saturday game as D&D.
My daughter is only 10 and she's had no trouble picking up the player bits.  What to roll, whether or not she succeeds on a skill or attack, etc. 
 
What nobody at my table wants to even attempt is building powers/spells/talents.
Even with Hero Designer (which I love) it is far too complex.  It is along the lines of the difference between playing a D&D fighter and creating the fighter class from scratch.

Well, we won't if we never try. And by "we" I mean someone with the time, resources, and talent (or access to the talent) to capture that lightning in a bottle. As I've said countless times before, it certainly won't be easy, but it is necessary. I guarantee you that anything less will amount to a useless half-measure at best, which will result in no movement of the needle whatsoever. So far history has effectively proven me right, and I fully expect it to continue to do so.
 
Another very unpopular opinion of mine is that the HERO System is not a good system for people who have never played TTRPGs before. It should not try to become a gateway game for that demographic. It is, always has been, and should remain the game system you graduate to after you've tried something simpler, more accessible, and ultimately less satisfying (I'm looking at you D&D). The HERO System has enough to do just being a deeper, more sophisticated, superior system. It shouldn't be burdened with the additional responsibility of teaching TTRPG fundamentals to complete newbies, and getting diluted dramatically in the process. That's why I would not be so eager to put any time/resources into some kind of (misguided) "Starter Set" version of the game.
 
In effect, the goal of drawing "new blood" to the system shouldn't be one of attracting people who've never played a TTRPG before, but one of attracting players from the massive pool of experienced TTRPGers who've never given the HERO System a chance.

@Doc Democracy
I’m kinda falling in love with this idea. . . a lot!

Well, it all comes down to how much of the mechanical system you expose.  Wrap the character cost together and explain their Sword skill.
 
Master Swordsman: you do 3D6 damage with the sword designed specifically for you.  You can pick up any weapon and add 1D6 damage to that normally listed. You can use any improvised object to deal 1D6+1 damage.
 
That would be easy for anyone to understand.  You just happen to know how it balances with other abilities and can knowledgeably tweak.  Players do not usually need and almost never want to look inside the black box.  But it is what HERO provides that other systems do not.
 
BTW, this particular conversation made me want to run a game where damage was a function of skill rather than weapon.  For instance, Bob from the local tavern will usually do 1D6 damage regardless of the weapon he uses.  Girondin of the Blade, will do 2D6 and 3D6-1 if he is using an edged weapon.
 
An interesting twist to the usual and allows players to pick weapons with an eye to style rather than combat advantage.
 
Doc
 

Oh my goodness, on that I have to agree. Now I see your point. That stuff irks me! I know the whole “class” system in D&D came from wargaming with different unit types, and so on. I just don’t know why it became standard, other than through sheer force of habit, and owning a huge RPG market share. 

Oh my goodness, on that I have to agree. Now I see your point. That stuff irks me! I know the whole “class” system in D&D came from wargaming with different unit types, and so on. I just don’t know why it became standard, other than through sheer force of habit, and owning a huge RPG market share. 

I don't know. Does it really matter where they come from, as long as we get new players? Refugees may actually have a deeper appreciation of the options if they're coming from a system that didn't give them the flexibility they wanted. A brand-spanking new role player may never have considered the possibilities and so may not venture as far "out of the box" as someone who's been to the dark corners of that box and found it lacking.
 
Regardless, I just want new players! Bring 'em on!

I should probably respond individually, but I'll try to do a single response to several repeating themes:
 
 
 
So I see Chris Goodwin and zslane as basically addressing two different issues: 1. having long-term product support to make continuous game development possible and sustainable, as well as to make the game attractive for new players to try; and 2. creating a game for people to learn quickly and easily. I've been trying to walk the line between these two concerns in this particular post, although it may be dean-man's land. It's at least my ideal goal for this particular thread. They need not be mutually exclusive, and I'm trying to play out the details of what would be both the least amount of information needed, and the most desirable presentation of that information.
 
 
 
You know, when I learned D&D (Basic/Expert, and then AD&D), I didn't know anything about "setting." The fantasy genre has its own particular tropes, so the classes, the monsters, etc. were sorta tacit in learning the game. Just look at the title, for crying out loud! There's setting implied right there. But we just played modules that looked cool. Their release accelerated, as I recall, in the mid-'80s, so the point that they became campaign-worthy (all the letters designating the modules indicated a series), and then came the Temple of Elemental Evil, and Ravenloft, and other actual "campaigns" for the game. By the time the World of Greyhawk came out, I was introduced to the concept of a "setting." Then that seemed to spin out of control, to the point that I lost track of what was what. And then 2nd edition came out, and I decided I'd be damned if I'd give TSR all my allowance money yet again to buy all the same stuff, all over again.
 
Besides, by then I'd discovered Champions and especially Fantasy HERO (the first edition of it). No more character classes? I can actually cross a fighter with a wizard, without weird multi-class or dual-class rules? Sing me up! I can build my own worlds, and with the Bestiary, I don't even have to do all that much work to create adventures? Sign me up! But what I did discover was that, without a setting of some sort, and more importantly, without supporting adventures and stuff it was just too much work for me, and I lost interest. Is this indicative of the HERO system as a whole? I'm not brazen enough to suggest that I represent a microcosm of the problem, but I am suggesting that it is at least indicative of the problem that would continue with HERO. 
 
 
I contend that Justice, Inc. is still the best game HERO System ever offered. It's helps that Aaron Allston was involved, but it was successful mostly because he suggested the mood, offered a few guidelines (weird talents if you choose, or psychic powers, or neither--the game still works). He didn't try to rehash the entire Champions system because the powers and stuff really weren't a feature of that game. The Campaign Book was really some simple and straightforward genre information (like a really short and efficient version of Pulp HERO), and then a bunch of adventures and adventure seeds. The game has a definite feel that distinguishes it from the other games, and that is what is essential for a standalone (or "complete") game. At least I think.
 
Duke, we first interacted, I think, when I was asking on some thread or other about information for Westerns through Justice, Inc. I was mistaken (because Western HERO hadn't been released yet) and realized that I used the game to create my own Western game long before I knew what it meant to use a toolbox to create a game. But that's what I did. It's called home brewing now, I guess. For me, it was just adding a layer to the already existing feel of the pulp genre.
 
Now, looking at the main rule book, it's actually 96 pages (which surprised me when I looked it up), but it just doesn't feel like 96 pages. It's simple, straightforward, and offers a complete viewpoint. And Package Deals are offered in the Character Creation section, not buried somewhere in the middle of a separate campaign section. (I can't emphasize enough how annoying that move is in all of the HERO books coming out nowadays!) The Campaign Book offers 43 pages of campaign advice and resources, including a brief timeline and slang from back in the day, and then 34 pages of adventures, including the single best idea ever presented in the pulp gaming genre: The Empire Club!. The Campaign Book comes in at 80 pages. So for a total of 176 pages, we have a complete, standalone product with enough playability to last several months, by which time everyone will have a good idea on where to go from there. The Empire Club alone presents the opportunity for an entire series of campaigns with a built-in motivation for any future adventures. Seriously, if you haven't looked at it, and you're interested in designing a game, a setting, or adventures, then it's an absolute must read.
 
 
I think maybe I stumbled upon a better description for what I mean by a "complete" game. Maybe it should be called a "standalone" game. That's not really as sexy of a name. I don't know what the best nomenclature is at this point, but I think that both Champions Complete and Fantasy HERO Complete are actually far from complete. At least there are electronic setting and adventure offerings for the latter, but it just doesn't have any unique character to it like Justice, Inc. does. 
 
Is that a fair comparison? Probably nothing could live up to it, but it's a great model nonetheless.
 
 
So, the original quotes that you're responding to aren't coming through in my quotes, but Chris Goodwin suggested we need more players playing the games, to which you suggest that instead we need to bring in new players. I'm not sure how these aren't the same thing. I suppose maybe you're talking about creating an entirely new setting and game which will draw in new people who've never played HERO before, which would be the ultimate goal for any of this (for me at least, and I'm guessing you too). I think we can all agree that this is the best possible outcome. But outside of catching lightning in a bottle, or somehow getting exclusive licensing rights from DC, Marvel, Disney, and whoever else, we likely won't see anything like Vampire: The Gathering or World of Darkness, or whatever else. I'm still somewhat (actually, completely!) baffled that Champions wasn't able to capitalize on 20 years of superhero movies in the public consiousness. Seriously! How could that possibly have failed? 
 
One guess: crappy artwork. But that's another issue (and I think we all agree on this one, so let's not keep rehashing it). Really, the artwork should look like the comics. Champions: New Millennium at least made the valiant attempt to capture the proper mood. Somehow, even that didn't work. So I guess it comes back around to brand familiarity (DC and Marvel) and licensing, as well as a good setting. 
 
By the way, I think perhaps in this day and age, convention play is going to be the main driver for new players. I go to Origins every year, and there are always HERO System games there, and always some people who have always heard of it but never played it. They show up to learn, but the games, at least in my experience, have always suffered from the burden of a full ruleset, inscrutable character sheets, absolutely ZERO teaching of the came other than "roll three dice under that number on your totally confusing character sheet." I think HERO System could benefit GREATLY from some dedicated games with simple adventures (say, the first one offered in the game book) so that people can try the game in a controlled, easy-to-comprehend atmosphere. Word of mouth counts at these events. I've seen dozens, if not more, people who were hopeful that they'd like a HERO game, and walk away shaking their heads because they still didn't understand how the To Hit roll was calculated. Seriously. More damage than benefit has been done by word of mouth. That ABSOLUTELY has to change, and DOJ needs to facilitate that type of intentional shift. 
 
I can't tell you how many games I've played at conventions, only to run to the merchant area afterwards to buy the books for the game. And better yet, have the game designers who were there presenting their game actually autograph the books that I just bought. Yet HERO System as absolutely NO marketing presence at conventions; not even from High Rock Press. Lot's of Dresden Files stuff, and not one HERO game. How can anyone get excited about A. learning a new game; and B. buying the new game on the spot, if they aren't actually learning the game, nor able to actually buy the game. 
 
Ugh, I've got to stop ranting on this particular problem . . . for now.
 
 
I totally agree with this. Turakian Age is a fantastic setting, but you just about have to cloister yourself to your study to absorb that setting in its entirety. To play a Fantasy HERO game, you really only need something like Fantasy HERO Battlegrounds, with it's starter adventures and some suggestions on where they may be located in the larger setting, and not the entire setting. Like the early days of D&D, as long as you had some idea of what lays outside one's door (Dungeons? Dragons? Sign me up and point me in the right direction!), everything worked just fine for most of us.
 
Of course, I was the one who always wanted to wander off the provided maps and see what was out there in the uncharted areas. Nowadays storytelling games do a great job of incorporating this into their games. Maps aren't as important as mutual world-building. There's at least something to learn from this, and I believe this is the ultimate goal of Ron Edwards's Champions Now project. Maybe some good will come of it. I don't know. But I do know, from reading his blogs, that he is diametrically opposed to the "official universe" impulse to shmeer everything into one flavor. I'm all for this as well, myself, and so when I'm looking for a "complete" game, I'm looking for just enough setting to get the imagination hooked, to maybe sketch out some of the known areas, and suggest some of the unknown areas, and then offer some adventures that can bring those two together in the future.