Nightshade

I have been out of town for a while, so I haven't had a chance to respond: The fireball weilding fighter was not my idea. I would have to see the rationalization of such a character before I allowed it. Even then, I wouldn't have considered it magic. As to the question of whether someone can have the 22 combat skill levels or whatever without training, the answer seems rather logical to me. Skills are LEARNED. Therefore, you have to do something to learn them. Training may be one of the ways you get them, but experience (you know, actually doing it) is also a good reason to get better at a skill. The multiclass penalty that was referenced was ONLY in 3rd edition, as multiclassing worked completely differently in both 1st and 2nd ed. The rule (IIRC, this is not a direct quote) is that all classes have to be within 2 levels of each other or they take a penalty. The exception is if the higher class is the racially preferred class. For humans and half-elves, the preferred class is any, so they in effect have to have 3 classes for this to kick in, and the top one is ignored. This means that you would need 3 classes, the two lowest level classes being 3 or more levels apart before you hit this penalty. Of course, this really isn't a rule, anyway. Races are arguably more part of the setting than the classes are, not part of the system. This means referencing them in any way as part of D&D is immaterial, because it isn't D&D, its Greyhawk. I'm sure that I saw THAT caveat in the rule book somewhere. As to arguing tesuji's post as to how to reference how my world works within the confines of the system, I use the Campaign Creation worksheet that was in the Fantasy HERO book for 4 ed. I can explain the magic system, skill changes (I now state for all new players that Security Systems covers finding and removing traps for my fantasy game), and any other system items in about 15 minutes for those who are familiar with HERO. It obviously takes longer if you aren't familiar. Of course, it would take a little bit longer to explain my world in D&D, as I would have to go over the magic system (10 minutes, tops), all of the class differences (don't know how long that will take), as other minor system items (I can't think of any, right now). I am still unsure where you are getting that I created my world specifically for HERO. I don't use HERO that way. I create ideas for worlds and then pick a system to do it in that works for it. For example, I have a game based upon the setting published in The Everlasting. The system is not complete, specifically, the power creation and magic systems. I also had a real problem with the skill system (although not the skill resolution system). Since this game is very similar to the White Wolf World of Darkness, I figured that I'd try it in the Storyteller system. However, there were problems with the importing of set powers and the freeform magic that the setting required. In effect, I would need a combination of Werewolf and Mage (the rituals and gifts worked well, in concept, with the powers in how they worked, where the Mage magic system is very similar in style to that proposed in the Everlasting). The major issue came when I had to figure how to rank the gifts vs. magic in terms of costs. The relative values became pretty messy, and my wife said that it was too confusing (she's good at making me explain stuff). I then put it into HERO. The skills and powers were easy, but the only way to get the magic to work would be VPP's, which is only easily done if you have experienced HERO players, in my experience. It is a solution, but the learning curve is pretty high. In my opinion, the system that comes with the Everlasting would be the best solution, if only it were complete. The second best was HERO, since it already had some relative point costs already done for me and I knew the system would work. The Storyteller solution was still viable (in my mind), but needed more polish, which was time I'd rather spend on other things. I'd actually never considered d20, although considering the high-magic setting, I suppose it is possible. However, there would have to be some sort of power creation system for me to use, along with a freeform magic system somewhere. I don't want to write my own system for this thing, so I can't see how I would even attempt it. So, right now I use HERO for it. When (if) they ever publish the complete system for it, I'll see how it goes. Personally, I think that it will work better, but who knows? That is the same thought process I used when I created my fantasy world. I knew that I didn't want to use a published setting, but I did want to use a published system. So, I created my world concept and tried doing it with several games (Palladium, RuneQuest, 2nd ed AD&D, HERO, and even ARIA). The one that was the most functional for me was HERO. So, that's what I use. Just as a matter of reference, I never once stated that D&D wasn't a good system. As a matter of point, I stated that D&D is perfectly good for what D&D is good at. I have stated, over and over, that if your world is modelled by D&D, then you should use D&D. I will say, however, that people on any D&D forum would do more than shout down someone who posted that D&D was inferior in any way to any other fantasy system. In addition, I can't think of a forum where people wouldn't object to someone coming on the board and stating that the system supporting the forum was as bad as tesuji has made it out to be. And, finally, I do not understand the point that we should take a psychological limitation concerning math, difficulty in math, or whatever. The biggest criticism for HERO is how complicated it is, mathwise. I just don't understand the problem here. We are talking about multiplication and division, here. These are things I learned in 3rd grade, when I was eight. If you don't want to calculate 45*2.25/1.75, on paper, I can understand that. Use a calculator. Use HERO Designer. Use a spreadsheet. It isn't really isn't that bad. We aren't talking differential equations here. This isn't algebra, geometry, statistics, or calculus. This is arithmetic. I will have to state, however, that D&D does not have nearly the math that HERO does, especially in the character creation system. While HERO uses 3rd grade math, D&D uses 1st grade math, for the most part. It is only addition and subtraction, with very minimal multiplication and division, usually using very simple numbers. Nightshade

I always thought that wyverns were related to dragons, anyway. I think I read that somewhere, but memory may be failing.... Anyway, I'd call it a dragon. I don't think that wyverns get quite that large. Nightshade

Why are you here? Fine! You don't like HERO. It is heavy handed and includes too much math. I think that D&D is EXTREMELY heavy handed and includes so many rules of the "because that's how it works" variety and forces players into situations that they and GM's may not like. The math involved in HERO I learned in 3rd grade. It is obviously truly difficult, since 8 year olds are expected to master it, but whatever. You prefer D&D. As I have stated many, many times, GREAT! I am so glad that you like the system that you prefer. Now, do us all a favor, and go play it. Go to the D&D forums and have a blast. As annoying to you as my posts that didn't give the EXACT rules (which you, of course, ignored the points to), it is much more annoying to everyone to go to a forum and extoll how annoying HERO is and D&D is so much better when the forum is for Fantasy HERO. If you don't like the system, and you prefer something else, by all means play it. But please don't sit there and write post after post extolling the wonders of a system that the majority of the members of this forum finds inferior, for WHATEVER REASON. Who cares what the reason is? What difference does it make. You obviously like a linear skill resolution system and it makes more sense to you. Great. I personally like a system where skill matters more over the magic modifiers. In the end, there is only one question: Does the system do for you what you want? But, just so we can continue the endless silliness of people attempting to prove the unprovable, I will give you what I had to do in HERO and in D&D to make it work for my game: In D&D, I have to do the following: Delete and create 5 basic character classes, modify the remaining. Create a new magic system. Create about 40 or 50 prestige classes (I have a pretty large world). Create all of the races, including modifiers. Create religion(s) for the world, including all of the gods, politics, important churches, etc.). Now, these steps are individually pretty hefty. Here is what I had to do in HERO: Create a new magic system. Create all of the races including modifiers. Create religion(s) for the world, including all of the gods, politics, important churches, etc.). That's it. The only difference, and the thing that will take pretty much all of the extra time, is the classes. And, just to head the obvious next statement off at the pass, I don't use package deals for professions, only for races. This leads to much less time for HERO for me than in D&D. If you can use a lot of the published material for D&D and it fits your world, I'm happy for you. I really am. Most of it is not useful for me or my world. If I had a different world concept, then the answer might be different. Nightshade

I agree with Killer Shrike. I would also add the following: When doing something like this, if you start off with the characters not being vampires, you as GM should know everything about the reality of vampires on your world. However, the players should only know what the common people think about vampires. If everyone thinks that they are warded by rose petals and garlic, but really they aren't, the players should think that they are warded by rose petals and garlic. It makes it much more interesting and exciting to have to wonder what works and what doesn't. For an added twist, make some have a particular weakness, but not others. This works best if you go with the whole bloodline thing, but can be worked in as an age/power level idea as well. Just make sure that the vampires (or any fantastical antagonist) doesn't become old hat. Nightshade

I forgot all about this one, and I can't believe no one else has mentioned it: Red Sonya with Arnold. That was actually a pretty poor movie, but the sword fights weren't too bad. As to the idea that magic makes the fantasy, does that mean that Indiana Jones was fantasy? The first movie had some magic with the arc, but the second one had voodoo-like spells and glowing rocks. Now that I have read all of the arguments, I would definately consider the martial arts films as at least a subgenre of fantasy. Thanks for the perspective! Nightshade

Idea My brother did something like this: Everyone starts off as standard heroic normals (75 base/75 max disads). They created their characters, and then he basically turned them into things, and made the disadvantages work out to the points that they got. So, if he turned you into a vampire, you would get all of the "vampiric" powers, but you would also get enough disadvantages to make up the difference. If there were too few disadvantages, he would add some "roleplayed" ones like hunted/watched, reputations, and the like. Made for a very interesting game, since everyone thought that they were just doing a "standard" game. Nightshade

I'm waiting in dire anticipation of your work. Congradulations on getting it done so quickly. If it is half as good as I think it will be, we will all be very pleased. Just one thing: How much longer NOW??? Nightshade

Setting Material I don't know if you knew what type of setting you wanted, or if you were creating your own. However, a series of books that I liked very much was from Steven Brown called The Everlasting. The book dealing with vampires (and other undead) was called the Book of the Unliving. The system is pretty horrible, but that's what we have HERO for. The powers that they have are actually pretty easy to convert to HERO, and they even list them systematically at the end of each chapter, so you don't have to do much to reference them for the conversion. Nightshade

Why? Power attack allows you to lower your to hit to increase damage. Called shot, sword arm. In HERO, that lowers the damage, not increase. Called shot, foot to pin to the oak floor. In HERO, that lowers the damage, not increase. You're right, that is exactly the same as Power Attack. Okay. I agree with you. The fighter example wasn't too clear. How about I state it this way: Any character rolling an opposed roll against a character with a skill roll modifier that is 8 higher than the first character (which in my mind is significant) has a 12.5% chance of successfully beating that character at WHATEVER IT IS THAT THEY ARE DOING. That, in my mind, is ridiculous. This would be the equivalent of having a 9th level rogue who maxed out a skill being beaten by a 1st level rogue with the same stats maxing out the skill. This includes feats. It is simply due to the statistics of the die rolling mechanic. The primary flaw with the d20 system mechanic is that the d20 is just too random. It doesn't follow a bell curve, so it is not particularly unusual for a character who by all rights should wipe the walls with you on that skill to lose to a much less skilled character. Be it skill vs skill, a fight, or whatever. Of course you don't bring up any of the other armor piercing weapons from my example. This is my criticism: HERO has a mechanic for called shots, D&D does not. HERO has a mechanic for disabling wounds (which is what the 1 body to the eye example was), D&D does not. This is not a level of house ruling for HERO, this is rules you can start with, and therefore don't have to create it as a house rule. HERO doesn't give people with higher combat skill levels more combat differences? HERO's ability to do something other than getting a better to hit number doesn't mean that characters get better at combat if they put experience that way? Oh, right. That's how WotC did it. They didn't publish a gaming book that referenced other gaming books (look at the leadership feat in the PHB, which puts it in the DMG; or the druid writeup that references the Monster Manual) and then have some of those books released months AFTER the first was published. They certainly give enough information to run Greyhawk in the main books. You can tell by their detailed history and maps they put in the books. And boy do they let you get under the hood with their system description. I am sure glad that the DMG goes into great detail as to what level to put what ability, especially the abilities that I create. I personally like it when they say "Look at the existing classes and compare." Boy. That really sounds like something I read in HERO. Let me think. Wait! I think I know what it is! COMBAT SKILL LEVELS! You're right. They do a wiz-bang job of becoming martial arts. That's why HERO has both. I also grow tired of this discussion. Obviously, we will never agree. How about this: I will agree that D&D is customizable if you spend the time to do it and that I will no longer post anti-D&D posts without having the book in front of me so that I can quote it verbatim. However, you have to agree that HERO makes it easier for a GM to do so because it has a much more open systematic way of doing so. Nightshade

Oriental Perhaps this is just me, but I never considered a lot of the Anime to be fantasy, but more of a martial arts genre. Sometimes that line is extremely fuzzy. For example, I never liked Xena or Hercules, the TV series, because of all the oriental martial arts. I wouldn't classify either Iron Monkey or Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon as fantasy, just because they were both more than a little heavy on the "kung fu" side of things. Both are good movies, though Perhaps I am too idealogically focused on western culture, though. I would like your thoughts on this. Nightshade

A little help When I made my last post, while reviewing it I noticed that the formatting came out bad (Okay, really bad). How do you quote someone, comment, provide another quote, and comment? Forgive my ignorance, but I am sort of new at this forum thing (no wonder they call us "Incompetent Normals" at this post level). Nightshade

Re: Re: Okay... "The examples i would bring up are WATOC's oriental adventures which produced its own classes and did not use some/many of the dnd classes... specifically i think, not certain but think, all the spellcasters and paladin were dropped and the monk replaced iirc with a new monk. They might have kept the rogue and fighter as is but i think everything else went bye bye and was replaced." I would not call Oriental Adventures fantasy. If it were, there would be no demand for Ninja HERO and products like that. I might say it is a subset of fantasy. "Is that close enough for you to admit the classes are setting?" No. "If not, a very soon out product, Monte Cook's Arcana unearthed will present another fantasy world with "all new classes". It wont, if i understand his pre-release comments use any of the core classes. is that enough?" Forgotten Realms (a WOTC product), Sword and Sorcery, and Kenzer & Company's world (whose name annoyingly eludes me for the moment) all use the base classes. I have an idea, lets compare books that exist. "OK so DND doesn't do arm wrestling as well as you would iike. " Pick any stat based feat, and it works exactly the same. As a matter of fact, pick ANYTHING and it works that way. An 8th level fighter only has +8 to attack over a first level fighter (feats and stats not included). Say they fight a duel to first blood, same situation goes. Compare that to two characters, one of which has 8 combat skill levels more. You see a difference. "You have several mechanics just plain wrong here. a master work item, particularly a painting, will NEVER (i possibly should say almost never) in DND be completed on a single roll. each roll represents an amount of work done and the amount of work required goes up with the value of the item and being masterwork that goes up a lot. without skills of significant note you will not really get a result above about 40 gp and a masterwork painting will be worth a lot more than 40 gp. So you are talking about needing MULTIPLE consecutive 20's or at least consecutive in that you do not get a bad failure in between." The rules have as a requirement for a masterwork item a difficulty of 25. That is the only statement that I can recall (although I don't have the book in front of me). "Secondly, since craft skill has a penalty for failure, you are NOT allowed to take 20 on those checks, period, at all." Really? Great. Name a skill that doesn't have any penalty for failure. The first thing that I will note is that if you fail, the difficulty goes up. I would consider that a penalty. "Perhaps you would be more able to nitpick DND if you knew how it works?" I would say the same about you. "I will stop you right there. You seem to be assuming the DND guy had like 1 skill rank so that he needed a 20, is that right? Why would you then equate that with the 2 pt profession at 11- for hero. Wouldn't that be more akin to the familiarity level? or does your example need this skew to be presentable?" No, to get a 25 skill roll by taking 20 means that they have to have 5 ranks. Hence why they would need to be 2nd level. "Using a familiarity, the odds of s 6- being about 5% indicates that with a familiarity a noteworthy success (made by 2) in ONE ROLL (or alternatively achieving a regular success on a harder skill check where the Gm applied some of the penalties for difficulty listed at the beginning of the skills chapter) is about the same as that 5% figure for the random d20 roll." No. There is nothing in D&D that states it, but I would think that a rank of 5 in a skill would be the equivalent of an 11-. I would think that it depends on how you define the 5 ranks. Is that good, beginner, apprentice, what? "I think perhaps you are equating masterpiece and masterwork as the same thing. " I am. "If you wanted a masterpiece along the scale you seem to indicate, then that painting in DND would have a gp values in the high hundreds at least of gp. Lets say 350 gp as a conservative estimate, a similar price increase a masterwork sword has over the normal one. To get 350 gp on a 20 roll you will need 9 rolls of 20 with no rolls below 10 anywwhere in between. Please run those odds." I am not sure where you are getting these requirement for the multiple rolls. Perhaps if you could site a reference. DMG? If I am wrong, I will admit it, but I need a source. "Again, if you knwo the d20 system, you would be better able to run these "minutia i dont like" examples." Combat and skill roll modifiers are minutia? "Lets see, called shots in HERo give you a penalty to hit for more damage... ever hear of POWER ATTACK? that in dnd allows you to reduce your to hit by a number up to your combat skill (BAB) and do more damage." I understand power attack, and that means very little. The write-up (and even the name) POWER ATTACK means that you are attempting to simply power through their defenses, not do anything with what I would call finesse. HERO has that, too. It is called a haymaker. I would think that very few people would confuse a haymaker with a called shot to an unarmored location. "I wonder at this since most of the HERO games i have seen and many of the FH games i have seen decided not to use them as an overcomplication. I think the notion of randomizing the random damage a second time and pretending it represented called shots was silly. I mean, one of the "roll for damage" aspects was did "you hit a vital spot" and the notion of calling a eye shot, taking a -8, hitting that spot and then rolling a 1 for damage and getting told you had a glancing blow to the eye that did nothing of consequence seemd a bit far fetched." If someone did 1 body to the eye, you wouldn't rule that the eye was no longer there? That added no game effect at all? The random roll for hit location adds two things for a game. First, it makes sectional armor SECTIONAL. The second is it trades the stun lotto (1d6-1 for stun multiplier) for something that (in the hands of the right GM) with a lot more possibility for drama. Instead of having three die rolls (to hit, damage, stun multiplier) you have three die rolls (to hit, damage, and location). "Where in the HERO5 book is the lasso weapon statted out? i missed that page." Good point. "The DND world is not intended to make "without magic" a viable commodity. Every class and every character is assumed to have and use magic. This is a high magic world. other d20 games which sought to address this have added a base defense bonus and that seems to be working well for them too. off hand i do not know if d20 modern did but i seem to recall it doing so." Again, this has been my point from the beginning. I run a low magic fantasy world. Doing that in D&D is difficult. Not impossible, obviously, but difficult. It is because the D&D Player's Handbook, you know the thing that opens the door to Endless Adventure and purports to have everything you need to do that, assumed high magic. "you are back to "how i would have preferred the DND setting to be". How about this for a plan. Make the system books that are required for ANY game using the d20 system have NO setting! I think I know a few... Lets see. Basic D&D, AD&D, AD&D 2nd edition, HERO, GURPS. Wait! I know. We are supposed to (of course) assume that the classes in the fantasy d20 book are merely suggestions, along with all of the spells, all of the skills, and the races! After we get done with eliminating all of that, we are left with "roll a d20, add all of the modifiers, see if you overcame the difficulty level." That's what we spent $60 on? I think not. "BTW if you look at HERO5 weapons, you will also find crossbows IIRC not being armor piercing." And that always bugged me. I always added it. Of course, that doesn't negate the fact that there is no mechanic for doing so in d20. "IIRC hero martial arts provides a series of present maneuvers which allow you to alter your attacks by basically shuffling the scores between things like attack, defense and damage. In DND and other d20 games, this is acheived by feats such as power attack and expertise (and in other official books all out attack.) other martial artsy feats include improved trip, improved grapple, improved disarm and the like." And these are martial arts manuevers? Oh, I get it. Let's look at some of them. Power attack. Pay a feat, and get a haymaker (a free skill in HERO). That looks like a martial art to me. Expertise. Great. I like more combat skill levels. Sounds like martial arts to me. All out attack. Ah, yes. In a book I've never bought or looked at. Improved trip. Make a trip and not provoke attacks of opportunities, IIRC. Perhaps I am wrong on this, but that doesn't sound very martial arts oriented to me. Improved Grapple. Same. Improved disarm. I agree with you on that one. Since you brought in the Complete Fighter's Handbook (AKA Sword and Fist), I guess that I can bring in The Ultimate Martial Artist. Let's see, there are 3 different disarms (Martial, Sacrifice and the Ranged one). There are how many different strikes, grapples, etc.? I'm sure that d20's less than 10 feats do the same thing and provide the same flexibility. "you really should read up on these things before going off on how bad you dislike dnd. Your points would be better made if you seemed to know of which you speak." You should really learn how to debate before you attempt to do so. One of the first rules is to attack only the argument, not the person. It is not only rude, but tends to make long counterposts. "because in the setting class ~ profession. Wealth in DND plays a major role, equipment per level is recognized as a balancing factor not a flavor element. In the DND world, money is power not just an FX for power. HERO works fine for supers, where wealth is downplayed and equipment = power points. " I disagree. Money in Fantasy HERO is just as important at in D&D, for the same reasons. Money is power no matter what system you are in. However, the SYSTEM should not tell people that they can't be wealthy, just because they are an adventurer. Why can't my wizard be from a wealthy family that gave him a stipend? "Yes. if you look at ancient cultures, that was often a belief, just like they believed in unicorns and dragons and faeries and trolls. while i can understand you not necessarily preferring to use that particular belief as a true element, just as you might not want to have dragons in your world, i cannot understand why it would be anything more than a "they chose something different than i would" thing. Where it it written that subjective modern morality is the only ethos that should be played? I removed alingment restriction from monks, and have used monks and have a pc monk in my game. it did not seem to make him more powerful. I kept alignment/religious restrictions for religious spellusers and added it gor those who did not have them... they did not seem to get weaker?" If you removed alignment restrictions, many more people would play Paladins. If you didn't remove the alignment restriction from Monks, would as many people in your group play one? Why do you think that is? "I think you have a nice theory but not any evidence to back it up." I think that this is amusing because this whole thing started with my agreement with what you said!!! Nightshade

Wow! These replies are starting to get really long. I should have probably broken that up like tesuji did. Sorry about that. Nightshade

Okay... Fine. Here we go again. Now we will have to define the system for D&D. I would place all of the classes as part of the D&D system. Why? Because they are in the D&D players handbook. They are not posed as suggestions, considerations, or even examples. They are part of the rules. That is not only my interpretation, but the intrepretation of every single potential player in my D&D on my world example I gave before. Not a couple people, dozens of people. Not a single group, every single person I talked to. What you are actually comparing is the d20 system to HERO, not D&D. D&D is the fantasy version of d20. I can't think of a single published work that stated "ignore all of the classes in the PHB, and use these instead" for a d20 fantasy game. Granted, I don't buy a lot of d20 books, but I highly doubt that any did that. They very likely added a couple basic classes and a bunch of prestige classes. But, since we're talking about campaigns vs. systems, let's talk about some things that are specifically system oriented. 1) Statistics As I mentioned earlier, a person with a 3 STR (i.e. a person with the strength of a three or four year old) has a 12.5% chance of beating someone with a STR of 18 (who is a professional weightlifter). That makes sense. This is, of course, due to the statistic system used in d20, and the fact that the dice (not the statistic) are more important. Get a good roll, and it really doesn't matter what your stats are. Compare that to HERO. If a person with a STR of 3 arm wrestled (or attempted a purely strength based action) against someone who had a STR of 18, the STR 3 character would get 1/2d6 while the other would get 3 1/2d6 to resist. In order to win, the low strength character would have to roll a 4,5, or 6, and the high strength character would have to roll 3 ones and a 1,2, or 3 (for the half-die) on his roll. That has an odds of happening of 1:864. That seems more reasonable to me. It is possible, but if it ever happened, you would be amazed. 2) Skills d20's skill resolution system is the epitome of randomness. Characters starting out with say a craft skill can make masterwork objects at 2nd level. Granted, it is a 5% chance (they have to roll a 20). Of course, they could just say "I'm going to paint a picture. How good is it?" They roll and get a 20! Amazing! Their first real attempt and they get a masterpiece! Their next attempt, they roll a 3 (+5) and get an 8. Low quality work. Not worth the paint they used to make it. That sort of makes sense, they aren't consistent, yet, but with practice... But wait, here's a wrinkle. We don't need to roll. I can just take 20. There's no real hurry. I can just do it. No problem! This is, of course, a beginner (an apprentice, basically) in the field. Now lets go to HERO. I have the professional skill: painter, but its the same situation. I have an 11- roll (in both circumstances, I am ignoring any stat modification). If I want a masterpiece, that is very difficult, so I take a -8 to my roll. I now have a 3-. I have a 1:216 chance of success. Again, doable, but not likely (and much harder than 5%). Okay, now I want to just make a painting. I make a roll and what do you know! A 3! Does that make it masterwork? Not last I checked. Because there is a point to declaring what you are attempting. 'Course, you could do that with d20 as well. But then, HERO doesn't have take 10 and take 20, so they have to put more skill points to consistently make masterwork objects, not just more time (although that does give a bonus, too). 3) Combat Here's a fun one. Try to make a called shot in D&D using the PHB, DMG, or MM. Sick of trying to find the rules? That's because you can't. That's right. That is, of course, why a chain shirt or a breast plate lowers your overall armor class. I have only met one GM for D&D that stated that they were not going to make some called shot rules, but the concept that you had to do it at all is puzzling. Here's some other things that D&D didn't bother putting rules in for: a) lasoo (this was already mentioned, and as I stated, easily overcome) Fencing - Try to make a lightly armored hand to hand fighter in D&D that can survive without magic. It can be done in HERO, and it doesn't take anything more than reading the book. c) Bec de Corbins, picks, and crossbows - These were weapons that were specifically designed to penetrate heavy armors. The Bec de Corbin is sometimes called the first can opener. That would be armor piercing in HERO. That would be a pain in the butt in D&D. d) Martial arts - HERO has how many manuevers in the base book? 12 or more (I don't have it with me). IIRC, D&D has the monk (the only basic martial artist) with flurry of blows, quivering palm, and ummm... urmm... maybe one other? Real good choices, there. Way to be dramatic. 4) Character generation D&D did much better this time than last about giving characters stat points in lieu of rolling dice to get statistics (even though it is just one of the options). However, they do limit some of the choices in terms of other, seemingly simple (in HERO terms) things. a) Money - Why is your starting money related in any way to your class? I can understand it with Monk, but any of the others, it simply makes no sense. Why can't I start off with more? Or start off penniless? And then to make it a random roll. Ugh. Again, much easier from HERO, IMO. Alignment - I stated this before. D&D PHB specifically states that good and evil are forces in the game. Many of the prestige classes (and even some of the basic classes) have alignment restrictions. Get rid of alignment, and some of the classes become MUCH more powerful (Paladin, Monk). 5) Character development Everyone knows that you go through life learning things in spurts. You go to school for 4 years and come out a level 1 engineer (congradulations!). Now, you get your first job, and you learn nothing for a few weeks/months and then suddenly everything clicks together at once. Then you learn nothing for a while and then one day, you learn more. Now you decide to go to school part time and get your MBA. You gain another level of engineer during that time (you are now a PE, for example) and then you learn NO engineering for a long time, because you had to learn all of your MBA skills (all at once) to get your degree and be a 1st level administrator. HERO's skill system is much more fluid, and has a lot more flexibility than any level based system. Don't get me started on the absolutely terrible classes (IMO) that they designed for D&D. I could rant for days on how powerful the cleric is compared to anyone else save, perhaps, for the paladin. Or how grossly underpowered the Ranger and Wizard are compared to the other classes. I admit, I don't like D&D. If you like it, go for it. I am telling you from my experience, D&D will not work adequately "out of the box" for my world, and HERO will. I spent dozens of hours trying to make it work, and it just simply wouldn't. I have played in games using completely GM created worlds that worked great in D&D, and would be a real pain in HERO (mostly due to the high occurance of magic). They both have their merits and flaws (it costs less to be immortal than to be filthy rich, which costs less than a 2d6 HKA (the equivalant of a great sword) in HERO. That makes sense ) I did not intend to make this sound like an attack. I firmly believe that any system can handle anything, given enough work and time. But you have to admit that some systems are just better at doing some things than others. For my specific needs for my world, which I had the idea for before I knew HERO existed, HERO works best. Nightshade

Dragon Slayer is really good, if only to see the dragon. Vermithrax is how I view dragons everytime. DragonHeart is okay, but not the best. It has a couple good scenes. Excalibur is really excellent. If you don't mind some camp, Krull isn't too bad, plus you can see a very young Liam Neeson in it! Good luck! Nightshade

I would buy hardcover, personally, however, there is an issue. HERO can't make money on a hardcover book that size at $31.99. They would have to charge $50 (probably) to do that and then people wouldn't buy as many due to the cost. My opinion is, I buy it for the contents, and if the binding falls apart from over-use, then I can buy another (I'm sure that would be Steve & Co's preference:D ) or I can spiral bind it, 3 hole punch it, or whatever to make it work. Like I said, I would buy a $50 hardcover version over a $32 softcover, but I would think that I am in the minority. Course, you could always do what White Wolf did and put out hardcover "special edition" versions of the book and put them at really high prices. I don't know how well those sold, though. Nightshade

Money Good point! I agree. So, let's say they put their new-found wealth into a horse raising business (this is fantasy afterall) and hire some people to run it. They then spend their points in wealth, but call that their special effect. Would they also have to buy a base (for the horse ranch) and followers (for the people) with points, or is that something that they can just have (like a mundane sword or armor, which they can buy with money and not points)? I personally can see that going both ways. As to the question of spells and magic items, my rule is that if it is something you can do (skill, spell, eidetic memory, whatever) you have to pay points. If it is something that you can use (sword, shield, wand, whatever) you only have to pay for it if you start the campaign with it or you can't lose it (unless you buy the independent limitation). If you find it as treasure, it is "free" (ie already paid for), but it can be lost as well.

We're on the same side Let's try this in a more simple format: I am not saying that D&D is bad. Far from it. I have played in and run many D&D games and had fun. It will do many things well and some things not. I have played in and run many HERO games and had fun. It also will do many things well and some things not. But here is the crux of the discussion. I will give it as two examples of play that have happened in games that I participated in. Example 1) I was running a 3rd ed. game and things were going poorly. The players liked the scenerio, but had a few complaints about their characters. Complaint 1: The Ranger simply had too much combat ability and not enough skills. He did not want to multiclass into Rogue, as that simply made no sense to him. He was 4th level and had put his point into INT, but he would have to wait until 8th level before it helped him with any more skill points. Complaint 2: The Enchanter had problems with spells, specifically the lack of enchantment/charm spells. He had them all, but when he got to 4th level, it was noticed that the only 2nd level spell was Hideous Laughter, which he had already taken at 3rd level. In effect, he got no advantage from his specialization. Complaint 3: The Rogue wanted to use a lasoo as her primary weapon. She took rope use, and the Exotic weapon feat, but there were no real rules for its use. She is a very "rules" oriented player. The second two were relatively easy to "hand-wave" away (I let the wizard take another spell that looked kind of like a charm spell and ropes are not THAT difficult to model). The first one had me stuck. I couldn't reasonably add skills to the Ranger class, especially by attempting to lower the combat ability. The Rogue class multiclass was the only alternative, so we sort of just ignored the sneak attack stuff and let him just take it as a level and moved on. Not long after, we changed over to HERO, and every one of the players (none of whom had ever played HERO before) were much happier with their characters. Example 2: I tried to run my fantasy world in D&D. I would call it a complete disaster. First, I had to (as you suggested) modify the majority of the classes, removing (yes eliminated completely) all of the prestige classes save Duelist (with a rewrite of where they came from), sorceror, monk, cleric, ranger and paladin. I then created from scratch other classes to replace the basic ones that I had eliminated. This took a LOT of time. I never got to the prestige classes (other than duelist, since that one was easy). I then attempted to run a game. After hearing what I did to D&D to make it fit my game, no one wanted to join. It was "too far" away from "standard fantasy" and people wouldn't even give it a try. I eventually threw up my hands, threw away everything and decided that if I wanted to run D&D, I'd just use Greyhawk, as most players were looking at the gods in the PHB as the ONLY ones that they can worship. The first example is why some people don't like D&D as players. The second is why some people don't like D&D as GM's. Now, I only have one real question that needs a response, and it is the question that I always ask when I get into these long, drawn out discussions where people seemingly don't read each others' posts (I admit that I am guilty of this as well). Why did you join the Fantasy HERO forum if you obviously like D&D more than Fantasy HERO? Why even be interested in another system if you like D&D? In my mind, you found a system that you like and works for your style of play, so why even look anywhere else? For my part, I hate D&D. That's an opinion, but one I can certainly argue at length about (a person with a 3 STR can beat a person with an 18 STR at arm wrestling 12.5% of the time! Amazing! I don't think my 4 year old (3 STR at best) can beat me (STR 13-14) 1% of the time at anything requiring strength). That is my personal choice. If you prefer D&D, great! That's your choice, and certainly one you are entitled to. However, I consider it bad manners to come to another company's discussion boards and start extolling the merits of D&D over HERO. I certainly don't belong to any discussion board concerning any d20 product. Nightshade

Money How about this for a twist: Say the heroes find a really rare item (like, say a phoenix feather, or dragon skull), which is really valuable, but not to them, so they sell it for mulitudes of money. Do they now have to buy the Perk Money? Again, I think that the best way to handle this is to count found objects, money, etc. as part of the experience system. Not everything the characters get as rewards are better and more skills, spells, etc. Nightshade

Huh? Okay... I have some questions as to your assertions: 1) Where are these methods of changing the classes in D&D? In the DMG, where the entire class chapter is taken up by prestige classes (all of which I hated) exept for 1 page at the beginning? This, of course had the sage-like advise "Use the existing character abilities for reference." Thanks for the tip. 2) It took me exactly the time it took me to read through FREd to come up with the "how things work" scenerio for my game. It is not particularly difficult. As a matter of fact, there are even sheets in the old Fantasy HERO book that allow a GM to communicate these "setting rules" to players. It would take literally over a hundred hours of work for me to rewrite the base D&D system to meet my needs. Here are a few that took literally minutes in HERO and what would take me hours in D&D: a) Magic users are much more speciallized on my world. There are Storm Mages, Diabolists, Infernalists, Elemental Mages, Plant Mages, Shapers, Namers, and dozens more. Try to create a Spirit Mage in D&D using the PHB, DMG, and MM (the only books "required" for the game). For HERO, I just tell me players that magic-users must have either a style of magic (Thaumaturgy, for example) or connected special effects (Fire Mages, for example), and tell them how to buy spells. As a GM, that is a whole lot simpler than having to redo the D&D magic system from scratch (including all of the spells) and then trying to explain it to a D&D player who just wants to game. As stated before, the only people who have magic in any form are the spell casters. The gods are mysteries. I like my world pretty realistic in terms of religion, where there are people who have fought religious wars and worship the same gods. The gods don't talk to us. It is a matter of faith. There are atheists who can discuss their atheism with a preist without the "Oh, yeah. Well, if Tyr didn't exist, how could I do THIS!" People can't prove the existance of gods on my world. This is difficult (at best) in D&D. c) Codes of ethics: I hate alignments. That is my opinion, and others are entitled to theirs. There is no force of "GOOD" and "EVIL" on my world. I like playing with shades of grey. I love to give my players moral choices and have them deal with things that may be right or wrong (or wrong and really wrong). I would much rather have players define their characters code of ethics through roleplaying than have them define it as an alignment. d) Levels: I really, really hate levels. I would much rather play a game where I have control of what my character gets better at and at what rate. In HERO, I can play a fighter with a lot of skills (but still a really good fighter), without having to multiclass and get abilities that I don't want and makes no sense for my character. This is more a player thing than a GM issue. I don't feel that my world is particularly strange. The majority of the races are human. I have elves, dwarves, gnomes, but also have giants (two types), intelligent spiders, and some other goodies By the way, these can also be very difficult to do in D&D. Now, that is not to say that D&D doesn't have its merits. It certainly does. It isn't an industry standard and the most popular RPG for nothing. It can do a good job for (I'm sure) most people's worlds with a little tinkering. However, playing a low magic, skill oriented, standard power world without divine magic can be very difficult without changing D&D to something that is definitely not D&D. The best thing world that D&D can run is a world made for D&D. If you didn't have one of those in mind, HERO can generally handle it with less dramatic of a house rule system. Nightshade

What I would do. My first inclination as to what to do with your city/campaign is to run it! That's another way of sharing your creation. I have several hundred pages for my fantasy world (and a lot more to write) and I really have no intentions of doing anything more than simply having it for my players. I even have sourcebooks and supplements for it. I know (or at least am pretty sure) that I don't have the time or the polish to get my work published, but most players will appreciate a nice detailed setting that gives them the ability to create an interesting character and for me to have an interesting campaign. IMO, there is no better way to share your hard work, sweat, and blood. If you get a lot of positive feedback from players, and would like to do something more, submit parts to DH. Who knows where it goes from there? Nightshade

I agree with what most have said so far. However, it does depend on the style of magic the GM has for his world. If spells were handled in a fashion where they were used on scrolls, and all you needed was to know how to use them properly for the spell to work, then finding more scrolls would be akin to finding a magic axe, etc. I think that then it becomes a much more complicated question. In other words, it depends on the campaign. Overall, I think that most GM's probably use the "you find it, its yours, forget the point cost" approach, but the pay points for what you get approach may be appropriate, too. Nightshade

The (Un)Holy Axe of the Mighty I actually got this idea from one of the Fantasy HERO companions, then modified it to become a very interesting plot hook. The axe is called a horseman's axe. It has a very long handle for a mounted rider to be able to hit foot troops. The blade is encrusted with runes of a dead elven language. Trapped within the axe is Semjava, a devil of torment. When weilded, the axe slowly ingratiates itself into the mind of the wielder. Those who are weak-willed will succumb quickly. Eventually, however, anyone who wields this axe will become the incarnation of Semjava, attepting to torture and torment any who are in his path. If you are not wielding Semjava, and are within 30 feet of the axe, you will have dreams, wherein a severed head resting on a dessicated alter will answer questions about demons and Semjava, claiming that Semjava is "The Holy Axe of the Mighty" and that it has chosen them to wield the axe in the fight against demons. It knows where the demons are, but it only needs someone to wield it so that they can be destroyed. Multipower 50 Points a) HKA - 3D6 (side effects 1d6 EGO drain, every use of the axe) - 1 Mental Images 5d6 (only when subject is asleep (-3/4)) c) Images (sound) (GM option for annoying sound effects when there are "demons" around) d) Detect life descriminitory, sense, ranged, 360 degree Nightshade

I count all found equipment, be it a magical item, spellbook, or sword, as part of the experience given. I don't require players to spend points on them. I only allow wizards to get new spells with research, and spellbooks count as that. I also make more physical characters learn from others and practice as well, so it doesn't imbalance things. I added a perk for my fantasy game called "library" to represent the wizard's capability to research spells. I try to intersperse magical items that will help everyone in the party, so if there are magical weapons, there will be magical wands, magical capes, helmets, etc. as well. I don't give out many magical items, and if they are truly powerful, they very likely have some sort of drawback as well. Nightshade