Nightshade

An example of a Tiered spell is the following from Abjuration: Glowing Shield of Kiandu: +3 DCV (All around CSL) (can only be used for defense -1/2, requires a skill roll -1/2, costs end -1/2, side effects if failed skill roll -1/2, incantations -1/4, gestures -1/4, visible -1/4, iaf [piece of shield] -1/2]) 5 points (Personal Tier) Other Tier - (UBO, does not lose power +1(?)) 5 points Group Tier - (UBO, 8 people, ranged) However many points. I don't have the spell writeup or even FREd with me, so I don't know that all the limitations or advantages are right, but basically the idea is you take a spell. Then, for the next tier, you get to expand the spell in some specific way. In the case of abjuration, you get to increase who/what you can affect, starting with a single person, then a place, then another single person, then a group of people. Just for clarity, I don't allow non-tiered spells to gain in power, which gives the more focused spell groups an advantage over the other, more "useful" spell groups. Connected spell groups just have prerequisite spells that have to be learned before you can learn the spell. For example, in order to learn an Alchemical spell (or should I say formula?) that lowers the victim's strength, one would have to learn the spell that augments strength first. Circles are basically what the old Fantasy HERO College system sort of used, where you have basic spells, then intermediate spells, and then advanced spells, so you need so many points of the basic to be able to buy intermediate, and so many points in spells before you can become advanced. The only real difference for my game is that the Circles have names in my game, not every group has them, and there may be 3, 4 or more. Since they are limited by this, I apply a -1/2 limitation to all spell styles that use Circles. As I require a -1 limitation in addition to RSR, End cost (if required), and side effects, this means that the other requirements of the spells aren't quite so bad in terms of the limitations. Paths are for large magical systems that control related magics. For example, Necromancy has the Bone, Flesh, and Spirit paths. Each Path requires its own skill roll, but the character only needs a single END reserve. That way, you could have a Necromancer specializing in Bone spells, but dabbling in Flesh spells and Spirit spells and not have to buy a separate END reserve. I only used paths were I knew that there would be a lot of spells and where categories would be pretty easily seen (Elementalism, Necromancy, etc. Does this make sense? Nightshade

Here is some additional details for each style (although not the individual spells). I had not considered doing a magic similarity chart. I do like that idea. I may look into that. Abjuration (Tiered - Personal, Place, Other, Group) Alchemy (Connected) Chaos Sorcery (Tiered & Connected) Conjuration (Circles & Tiers) Crystalism (Circles - Common, Semi-precious, Precious) Diablism (Connected & Tiers) Divination (Connected) Druidism (Paths - Land, Sky, Sea) Elementalism (Paths - Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Metal) Empathy (Connected) Illusion (Tiered) Infernalism (Circles and Connected) Kleptomancy (Tiered) Lumineurgy (light based magic) (Circles - Initiate, Adept, Journeyman, Master) Mysteries of Night (darknes based magic) (Circles and Tiers) Necromancy (Paths - Flesh, Bone, Spirit) Plant Magic (Connected) Spiritualism (Shamanism) (Circles - Quest, Shaman, Teacher, Master) Totemic Magic (Connected) Transfiguration (Connected) Vitancy (Circles) Weather Sorcery (Tiered) Witchcraft (Paths - White & Black) I am hoping that a lot of the work for Necromancy, Druidism, Elementalism, Divination, Witchcraft, Conjuration, Alchemy, Illusion, and possibly Transfiguration will be done in the FHG. I am almost done with Abjuration and Mysteries of Night. I am about 1/2 way through Totemic Magic and Diablism. I have some work done on Plant Magic. So, I am still in the beginning stages, but the hard part was coming up with how magic works, then looking up everything that I want/have used. Now, I think that I can knock out a spell style in about 2-3 hours, complete with setting info, history, spell write-ups and system writeups, depending on the size of the style. The spell style that I have the most completed (as in I think I have all of the spells basically done) is Abjuration. The Abjuration style has 20 different spells, which are basically pretty specific protections along with a few spells that are magical traps for offense (which are mostly non-lethal). As each spell has 4 tiers, and if you have the higher tier, you can still cast the lower tier version, if you like, there are 80 somewhat different effects for this one style. Nightshade

I like the ideas given so far. The restrictions/limitations idea from Killer Shrike is very good. As to having players help out with spell ideas, that would work if I could ever find any players. Because it was asked, here is a list of the spell styles that I am currently planning on having: Abjuration Alchemy Chaos Sorcery Conjuration Crystalism Diablism Divination Druidism Elementalism Empathy Illusion Infernalism Kleptomancy Lumineurgy (light based magic) Mysteries of Night (darknes based magic) Necromancy Plant Magic Spiritualism (Shamanism) Totemic Magic Transfiguration Vitancy Weather Sorcery Witchcraft Of those, Chaos Sorcery, Mysteries of Night, Diablism, Infernalism, and Druidism are all practiced by cults/specific groups, so they need special attention on my part to make them work for what I need them for. Each spell style will have an internal structure to it, as well as strengths/weaknesses within the style. Some styles will have Circles, where you have to know a certain number of spells of one Circle before you can start taking spells of the next Circle. This is pretty similar to what was done with the spell colleges in Fantasy HERO for 4th ed. This will be worth a limitation (-1/2) for the spells. Some styles will have Tiered spells, where spells will have multiple layers that can be purchased. For example, Abjuration has 4 Tiers (Personal, Place, Other, Group). In order to get Group, you have to have Other, Place, and Personal. Some will be Connected, where you have to have a certain spell prerequisite in order to get other spells. Connected styles will have a limitation (-1/2) on their spells. And finally, some styles will have Paths. A Path is a subgroup of a spell style that will require its own skill roll, but will be powered by a single END Reserve. This will be for larger schools (like Elementalism), where you are drawing on similar magical power, but are dealing with different aspects. Of course, a particular style may have more than one structure. For example, the Mysteries of Night have Circles and Tiers. One thing that I do want, though, is the ability to add styles as time goes on. If a player comes up with a new style of magic, then I want them to be able to create it and incorporate it into my world. Most of these styles were actually created by people playing in my game in the past or used by me in my plots. Comments are more than welcome! Nightshade

Exactly. This is the feel I want (specialists are the norm), but I don't want to preclude someone getting more than one style. Powerful characters and villians may have mastered more than one style. But, like I said, I need to make it such that there are enough spells in every style to make it worthwhile to take at all. I want every style to have enough versatility to stand on its own and have interesting effects, but have enough limitations and effects that there are always weaknesses to the style. How many spells are necessary to get that feel? How many are too many? Nightshade

Good idea. It might help if I posted some details. This is how magic works (system wise). Each spell style requires a skill roll and endurance reserve, which will power the spells. All spells must cost endurance, requires a skill roll, have side effects, and an additional -1 limitation. The entire cost of the spell must be paid for. So, if you were playing a wizard with spells in the Empathy school, you must have an Empathy spell skill roll, Empathy END Res, and then the Empathy spells. If that character then wanted to branch out and get some Storm Sorcery spells, that character would need to buy another skill roll, end reserve, and then the spells. This is why the number of spells per style is important. I want to make it so that people won't necessarily have to buy into another style because they ran out of spells. Does this make sense? Nightshade

I've been doing some work on magic for my fantasy world, and came to the conclusion that I need to do a lot of work on magic for my fantasy world. Looking through my world writeups, I have found references to/characters for/villians using 23 different styles of magic(!). It has also been pointed out that most of my players would much rather be able to pick precosted spells than build their own, although some would also like to build their own, as well. Some of the work will be done by my buying the FHG (thanks Steve & Co!), but there will need to be a lot of work done by me to get everything I want done, done. Now, here's the question I have. Since I have so many different styles of magic, what should be the minimum and maximum number of spells for each style. The last thing that I want would be a style that is way too overpowered, or (worse) one that is so limited that no one would ever use it. Thanks! Nightshade

Okay, so I've moved to Iowa. I'm trying to find a group, so I post on these fair boards, nothing. I look at the local gaming stores, nothing. What do you guys do to get players? I had this problem in Minnesota, too, although I had attributed that to the fact that I was way out in the country. Nightshade

I would go with a Sticky, Uncontrolled Mind Control, based upon Con, with Ranged if you want it to be transmitted by something other than touch. If you wanted more of a zombie aspect, you could go with an EGO Drain instead. To get the disease effect, you could go with gradual effect. That way, people don't just "become" zombies. Nightshade

I also enjoyed Cyber HERO, but could never get anyone to play. I may have to dust that off and see how things go. Where are you located, BTW? I noticed that this was your first post, so I guess I'll be the first to say: Welcome to the HERO Games Forums! Nightshade

I had a game where I was playing a Paladin and a friend of mine was playing a Ranger. We had found out that there was a town to the south that was being attacked by a dragon. Needing to get there quickly, we tried to get the Ranger a horse, but we did not have any money. The Ranger asked if he could borrow the horse, just to get to the town, where he and I would kill the dragon, then he would bring the horse back. The very concerned owner, who had actually heard of us and knew that we might be able to win, said, "How do I know that you really are these people? How do you know your not just lying to me." My friend answered "My friend's a Paladin. He won't let me lie." Nightshade

By the way, what genre do you like to play in? That might help as well. Nightshade

We do seem to have our our vocabulary, here, don't we? Fred (FREd, FRED) is the book you were referencing. The 4th edition book was rather large (as well) and blue, so everyone called it the BBB for Big Blue Book. Well, this one is Black, but we couldn't call it the the Big Black Book (BBB) because people would get confused. Finally, during discussion, Mr. Steve Long piped up and said "You can call it Fred for all I care, as long as you buy it." So, Fred stuck. UNTIL is a group in the Champions Universe. Recently, HERO put out a book called the UNTIL Superpowers Database (called here the USD). This is a book of prebuilt powers and options for these powers to make it easier to create superhero characters. My suggestion to learning this system is the following: Pick up the 5th Edition book and read through it, but not all at once. Just try to understand the terminology and how you would apply all of the stuff to your game. Pick up the USD. This is a wonderful book that gives solid examples of how to create powers using the system, which is very likely the most complicated part of this thing. Try to figure out what they are talking about in that book. Now, go back and read Fred. As you are doing so, if you think of an interesting character, make it. If it makes no sense, that's fine. Just try to become comfortable with the rules. During this whole process, come to any of the boards and ask questions. If you don't understand some aspect of a power, framework, skill, whatever, just ask. We're very friendly here and love to discuss (debate, wrangle, cajol *ahem*) things like this. I'm sure that just by reading the forums, you see that. By the way, WELCOME TO THE HERO DISCUSSION BOARDS. I hope you enjoy your stay. Let us know if you need anything else. Nightshade

Don't look at it on an average. Look at it as possibilities. With the 30 ED, the armor piercing attack has a possibility of getting some body through. The 15d6 EB does not. AP is generally better for attacks against Tanks (characters with high defenses) than against low defense characters, exactly for these reasons. Hope this helps. Nightshade

I would actually build this as a vehicle with a multiform. I would use the AI rules and make it an intelligent vehicle, but it just makes more sense that this thing is a vehicle most of the time, but can become something else to make it more portable. Although I do like the idea of buying a multiform with the vehicle rules and not taking th bonus. Nightshade

In order to do this, one would have to be willing to treat Characteristics as powers and allow Usable by Others in their game. If your game does not allow one or the other of these, then you don't have to worry about it. If you do, then you have some issues with how to make Aid more viable than buying the characteristics this way. Nightshade PS BTW, characteristics are not treated as powers in my fantasy game. I might allow it in my Champions game, along with usable by others. I allow characteristics as powers in my Star HERO game, but not usable by others.

Yes. You can define the gestures to include manipulating a Focus, if you want to. Nightshade

I would also suggest Western HERO. I own it, and I thought it was pretty well done. You could also go to the History channel or PBS. They sometimes have documentaries on the Old West. 'Course, the Western Era was the most interesting period that really didn't exist. Most of the stuff that was really interesting was turned into mythology by movies, books, and other media. Nightshade

We had a party that had some internal problems. It hit a head when the fighter drew steel, to which the thief coolly stated, "Ah, how appropriate. A BASTARD sword." Nightshade

Steve; You are the man. I cannot wait to get this baby in my hands! Nightshade

I don't know if this has been answered, but I wondering what groups of spells were actually in the Grimoire. I was sure I saw alchemy and necromancy, but what else? I am wondering as I am working on my campaign and would like to know what may already be "done", since my buying the book is a forgone conclusion. Thanks. Nightshade

BattleTech actually did this in a wargame. There were no aliens at all, and the galaxy was fractured based upon many ruling lines. The game was okay, but the concepts were pretty good. Nightshade

This seems like a summon with an expendible Focus, gestures (inscribing the rune), extra time, incantations, and anything else you want in there. As GM, I would rule that transform would not allow animation. Sure you can make the bone into a skeleton, but to make it move requires something else. In effect, you would also have to Transform the inanimate object into an animate. Therefore, the Transform would be physical and spiritual, which would get rather expensive anyway. In addition, Transform technically doesn't give any sort of control, which is something the villain needs to make it work, and is inherent to Summon. All around, I'd go with the Summon over the Transform. Nightshade

You have that, but the End cost is too high for it to be useful. Change the increased end cost limitation to something else with a -1/2 (such as a skill roll, or whatever based upon the other powers the character has). This way, instead of 8 end per phase it will be 4 end per phase. This may get it where you want it. Nightshade

Truthfully, I never liked d10's. I have always sort of wished that they had used 3d8s in lieu of the 3d6's, just so we could have a 3-24 scale instead of 3-18. It would make for more range of skill IMO. Anyway, I would also note that the scale is different with the 2d10 method (2-20, not 3-18). This means that you may have to adjust the 8- and 14- rolls slightly if you want them to be more or less frequent. Nightshade

Your Milage May Vary Nightshade