Pattern Ghost

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks? Shh...

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks? The first type should be built on a higher point total. This is about stretching the boundries of "everyone must be equally capable in combat" for a bit of variety. For the record, I'm fine with the way Champions is presented, where everyone has a shot at a fair fight with everyone else. It represents the middle ground that most comic characters tend to fall in. This thread is just for the sake of discussion of what's possible. You must have missed a slew of combat options here. The two can interact. If the MA goes all out offensive, he SHOULD be able to avoid almost all damage from the high defense type brick. Look at how many comics examples of this there are of the light fighter simply trying to bait or lead the bigger, tougher opponent into a more strategic position. Agile versus Strong is a pretty classic comic standoff, isn't it? I never said either of these things, and you're not addressing any other point made in that section. Also, if we're building PCs, you shouldn't be in combat with the guy who's on YOUR OWN TEAM to start with, and any GM with a sense of fair play won't be tossing 40 Def bricks at your group on a weekly basis. Let's just stick to false dilemma situations and stay inside the box. As I said, I like the default box well enough, so no harm in that. Actually, most real life MA techniques aren't terribly useful if your opponent has a huge strength advantage. You don't see skinny girls putting 250 pound body builders in wrist locks every day anyway. However, it's entirely in genre for someone to throw a character that has a huge STR advantage. First of all, "leverage" becomes magical in many comics settings. If you want more realism, you can simply say that the brick was tricked into overbalancing themselves and tripped or stumbled as a result. The throw maneuver doesn't mean you have to flip the other guy over your shoulder, does it? I know you know the answer to that one, so I don't know why you're bringing it up? Who ever said they did? I don't know what you're talking about. CV is definately one of the classic tradeoffs for high Defenses. If you have a Def/Damage gap in the brick's favor, you should have a CV/Speed gap in the MA's favor, in general. This is the core of the problem with "Martial Bricks" being somewhat overpowering. By taking a middle road on CV/SPD and high primary attributes, then combing them with some Martial Maneuvers, you get a god-awfully combat effective character. Even those guys are in genre, however (Spider-Man for example, or any one of DC's speedy uber bricks). These middle road guys are the ones lacking in tradeoffs. With the current recommended power levels for a 350 game, they have no real competition on the melee front. As I said, the idea was rough. However, it's in genre, and it makes some interesting alternatives to the Martial Brick types. I think the game has enough combat options to help in this regard, and powers can help as well. I think that the Nighthawk/Luke Cage scenario you suggest is a happy middle ground, and I think it works well for a game. As I said, this is just to stir up some ideas for allowing something out of the ordinary. Again, I like the status quo, but it's also fun to kick around some alternative concepts.

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks? Here's one idea I had the other day, though it's very rough, and there are similar systems, like Rule of X, that may do it better. You could set up a matrix of Damage/Defense/CV/Speed. That gives four categories. Assign four power levels to the four categories: PL Dmg Def CV SPD 1 08DC 10 08 3 2 10DC 20 09 4 3 12DC 30 10 5 4 14DC 40 11 6 At a basic level, you could allow one of DMG/Def/CV/SPD from each power level. For example, you could have a MA with: 10 DC Dmg 10 Def 10 CV 6 SPD Or a Blaster with: 14 DC Dmg 30 Def 4 SPD 8 CV Or, you could take it a step futher and say 1+2+3+4 = 10 pts worth of power levels and let the players mix it up. My numbers here are mostly bogus, and may not work in actual practice. The chart doesn't take into effect more elaborate power constructs for example. Given that the numbers are probably bad and the matrix is simplistic, here's how I arrived at the numbers: DC based on typical range of damage found in Champions, without regard to modifiers. Defense based on the next PL being able to effectively negate the one below it. So, at PL 3 you have 30 Def, which effectively stops the *average* damage from a PL 2 attack (35 average), while still letting some Stun through. Of course, the inverse is also true. CV was taken by looking at all of the sample 350 pt characters in Champions and adding up their base CV + Skill levels. It turned out to be a very tight range. SPD was set with the idea that a lower speed campaign would make balancing a little easier. It could have been 4-7 to allow for speedsters having a rank to shoot for over Martial Artists, but you can still build a formidable Speedster using power constructs and skill levels. Anyway, for all the length of this post, it's still a very rough idea. But it's one that could allow for a little bit wider range than the standard suggestions in the book while maintaining a bit of balance.

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks? That's an interesting perspective. Why does "can't damage the hulk with my punch" equal "incapable of accomplishing anything"? Let's say your MA can toss out 10 DCs of damage. Let's say some bricks have 40 PD. Ok, you aren't hurting that brick with your MA attack at 10 DCs. Maybe you can use some Knock out gas to weaken him, or Martial Throw him so someone with higher damage and lower CV than you can get a shot in. Perhaps you can use Teamwork to boost damage? Or you could buy tactical abilities to boost your teammates ala Batman. So, you're never entirely useless even in combat. Even if you were totally ineffectual in combat versus another character, how many combats are one on one? Most heroes and villains fall somewhere in the "medium" category in most of their abilities, including damage and defenses. Everyone should be able to find someone to attack in most melees. Of course, if you *did* get stuck effectively sitting out a combat session, it'd suck. Combat takes a big chunk of a game session, and that's interaction you're missing out on. I'd say that keeping you involved is the GM's job, and being anal about power limits to too great of a degree isn't the best solution, though it's definately one solution.

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks? Thanks, but I didn't take any real offense to Squall's attacks. They were pretty mild.

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks? Sigh up a rope.

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks? I can't believe people are still having a hard time grasping "Normal" as an ORIGIN, I was NEVER talking about a normal guy off the street. Learn to read for crying out loud.

Re: Why model smoke grenades/pellets as Darkness? If it can impose penalties, there's no reason it can't logically reduce penalties...

Re: What would your inner geek pick? Power Girl.. and I'd never leave home!

Re: Why model smoke grenades/pellets as Darkness? I never understood why creating light became images. Seems simpler to change the light level in an area than to create an image of a lighted version of what we're looking at. =P

Re: Thunderbird Questions No kidding. The John and James writeups are right next to each other. James, as you noted later, has Ex Agility as the ony difference. The source named was from around 1990 or so. Edit: I did intend to put the agility difference for James and John up, but forgot. Good to know. That said, what was your point? Just being snarky? The only relevence to the thread in your post was to the upgrades on the current version of James. You could've just posted those. Obviously, any FASERIP stats are out of date, I was just providing same since another poster above me mentioned them.

I can't seem to find the value for Does No Knockback in the rules (5th), so now I'm beginning to wonder if this was ever an official limitation. Though I'm sure I've seen it somewhere in print. Very handy for building beam weapons that don't exert physical force. Whether I'm imagining it or not, what would the appropriate limitation value be? I think I've seen it at -½ before. edit: Nevermind, found it buried in the Attack Powers section.

Re: Calling all Archers That's a retcon. He has varying levels of adamantium in his bones depending on the writer. In the 1990 Gamer's Handbook of the Marvel Universe, he's described as having a full adamantium skeleton, with the bonding done by Lord Dark Wind.

Re: Ok, I have decided...

Re: Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds? This site has every MSH publication made up in PDF Format: http://www.marvelrpg.net/

Re: Why model smoke grenades/pellets as Darkness? I think the normal range penalties would cover that. Edit: That was in reply to Fitz. =D

Re: Science Skill for Spidey I'd put that type of feat down to a general Mechanics/Electronics background plus a high INT.

I was looking up Darkness (in Fifth Ed, pg. 96] to refresh my memory on current costs to create a smoke grenade when I came across the following line: Then it hit me: I'd been about to build the umpteenth million smoke pellet/grenade construct with the Hero rules, without thinking out the effect. I've seen plenty of real smoke grenades in action in the Army. While heavy smoke can be completely obscuring to normal vision, it shouldn't stop IR vision, and you can usually see movement and at least some outlines if you're close enough. (The default level of Darkness in Fifth is against the entire sense group, which would stop IR vision for example.) So, why not use Change Environment instead? While I'm pretty sure I haven't been the first person to think of this, I still see tons of builds both official and player base created using Darkness, even though CE now has the capability of simulating the effect. EDIT: One thing I should probably point out: Darkness suggests its use for smoke grenades in the second sentence of its entry, and Change Environment says it can't be used to simulate the Darkness power. I put forth that Darkness at the default of affecting the entire sense group is not appropriate for the SFX. Since we're looking for obscured vision, such as the sidebar Pea Soup write up, this doesn't violate the restriction on CE.

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks? No, you missed the point. I'm talking about super martial artists with the origin of being (at least physically) a highly trained normal. I.E., posessing no super human physical attributes. Someone like Daredevil, for example. (Has sensory powers, and advanced MA training.)

In comics, Bricks are usually nigh-invulnerable to anything resembling a normal human or a normal human weapon. Now, you may not want to model the extreme ends of that spectrum in a game, such as shrugging off nukes or even crew-served weapons, but you certainly want bullets to bounce off your chest, and you don't want to get whittled down to size by that pesky "normal" martial artist. Daredevil doesn't damage the Hulk, he doesn't put a dent in Luke Cage, and his best billy club whack to the back of the Thing's skull is as likely to be confused for rain drops. Hero/Champions has quite a different paradigm at work, however. If you follow the guidelines for max defenses, even a fairly modest martial artist is going to cut you down to size eventually. There are great offensive ways to deal with the pests, but if you stay within most campaign limits, it's hard to simply ignore them. Let's crunch some numbers: Typical Def at 25. Let's brick up a bit and buy a nice round 30 for PD. Now, Joe Dojo walks in, strapping young hero that he is, with his mighty 20 STR (4d6), his Offensive Strike (4d6), His Baseball Bat or 2 DC levels (let's say 2d6), and some CSLs left over to add to damage due to our CV differences (let's say 2 levels, or 6 STUN). So, Joe Dojo is tossing out an impressive 10d6 damage, +6 STUN. On average, that's 41 STUN. On an *average* hit, we're taking 11 of that damage. Let's say he hits us with that attack six times in a Turn, and lands four of those. That's 44 STUN for the Turn. Ouch? I've never heard of GMs imposing "real-human" limitations on human origin or NCM characters, so we're going to have to solve this little break from comic reality some other way, without violating (at least not too much) the spirit of the rules (the no absolutes thing) or campaign guidelines (i.e. not pumping PD up to 45 and calling it a day). Perhaps some extra defenses or damage reduction with "only versus real humans"? Invisibile Missile Deflect like the one 4th Ed brick had to handle bullets? Desolid, only versus Uppity Martial Artists? I don't have the Ultimate Brick, and I don't intend to own it in the near future. This thread is more intended to work out a compromise between comic realism and Champions realism among our collective brains, rather than to aid in building any particular character. So, suggestions of checking out that fine publication are certainly not frowned upon, but they're not exactly what I'm looking for if you know what I mean.

Re: Thunderbird Questions James Proudstar's stats from the TSR MSH game X-Men supplement are as follows: Fighting Ex (Regular, formal training. Ex: Cyclops/Nightcrawler) Agility Gd (Some training in dexterity and accuracy. Ex: Invis Woman/Colossus) Strength In (Able to Press 10 tons, Spidey-level) Endurance Rm (Intensive Exercise. Ex: Captain America/Cyclops) Reason Gd (Repair and install 80's (current IOW) technology. Ex: Capt Am.) Intuition Rm (Detective Skills or Background. Ex: Cyclops/Spider-Man) Psyche Rm (Trained in resisting outside forces. Ex: Hulk/Mr. Fantastic) Body Armor Gd (stops normal handguns) Tracking Rm He's bilingual in Apache/English, has tracking/survival/outdoor skills, American Indian history and student talents. Fighting is the character's overall hand to hand competence. There are martial arts talents that can bump the column you roll on for different aspects of hand to hand, but James has none of those. Agility is used to determine ranged combat hits. Again, no great shakes here. A Hero DEX of about 18-21 is probably appropriate based on the above. SPD is probably around 4. Strength lifting capacity is based on an overhead press, not a deadlift. So STR around 45-50 is probably appropriate. Endurance is max 30 for a normal Human. That's why Cap is one of their examples for that level of End. In MSH, Mutants get a bonus to END, so that's why Cyclops is sitting there. Otherwise, he and Thunderbird would be sitting at EX. I'd say a RM probably rates him at 23-25 in most hero games simply because of the number of "normal" human ranges. I tend to think of them along the lines of Typical = 8, Good = 13, Ex = 18, Rm = 23, or thereabouts. Reason in Marvel is more a measure of how good you are at manipulating technology rather than thinking ability overall. Intuition = PER. Combning the two, I'd give him 13 INT and a couple of overall PER levels, for an INT roll of 12- and a PER roll of 14-. Psyche is basically EGO. His SFX for the high Psyche score is resistance to mental attacks trained by Xavier. You can go several routes with that. I'd say maybe 11-14 EGO (for the ECV levels) and either a little Mental Defense or Resistance perk levels. Good Body Armor is enough to stop a pistol or rifle in Marvel terms, so maybe 10-15 resistant defenses. Everything else could be bought with skills.

Re: Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds? I'd say there's a huge difference in running a 200 point character with no disadvantages in a game with 150 points of disadvantages allowed (where everyone else is going to take the full 350 and most villains are going to be built assuming you took your 350) versus a lot of other systems where you get only a handfull of points to round out your character. I don't know the numbers for M&M, but let's say BESM at 50 pts + 5 or so pts for example. Of course, I know you weren't overly serious in that statement. =) Still, Hero assumes you're going to take a LOT more points in Disadvantages than a lot of competing systems.

Re: Ok, I have decided... I'd go with an EC, personally. Let you use that armor and the attack on the same phase.

Re: Normal in a Supers Land I don't want to beat a dead horse here, b/c Assault already addressed this, but what you just described is a character LOSING 17 points for a 20 point Disadvantage. That's a harsh penalty for a Disad. If you're going to buy up multiple stats over NCM, then you really shouldn't take it.