Just Joe

Re: Heroic level characteristics ramble I am persuaded. But since it will often be a pain-in-the-butt way, I am also persuaded by NSG to avoid it where possible.

Re: Heroic level characteristics ramble

Re: Heroic level characteristics ramble . . . or the increased ability to hold opponents or escape from others' holds. We now return you to your regularly-scheduled thread.

Re: Heroic level characteristics ramble I seem to care a lot more about realism in gaming than the vast majority of Herophiles, but I share virtually none of the concerns you have expressed here. I think the main reason that I am untroubled is that I don't take the attempts to define characteristic-levels seriously. Even STR, the most quantifiable characteristic, assumes that everyone who can lift the same weight can jump as far, for example. I choose simply to interpret a 10 in a primary characteristic as averagish (median, mean, whathaveyou, I don't need precision here), a 20 as just about the human limit, and values in-between accordingly. Part of the reason I take this approach is that I agree with the criticisms that Hero does not provide enough variation in characteristics (at the heroic level). Take your INT/IQ example. In real life, the difference between an 80 IQ and a 120 IQ is substantial. In the Hero system, the difference between an 8 INT and a 12 INT is negligable, particularly in a game without mental powers. For most purposes, there are five "normal" INT levels: 0-2, 3-7, 8-12, 13-17, and 18-20. So unless your character is substantially below average, you can be average, above average, and well above average. Your suggestion would give virtually everyone an 11- INT roll. That gives virtually no room for differentiation in game terms. That might be realistic in terms of your and/or official real world to game world conversions, but is not realistic in that it makes virtually everyone functionally equivalent (admittedly, my case is not as strong for stats other than INT, but I think the same principle holds. As for the appropriate CHAR levels for heroic level games using my approach: it depends on what you're trying to model. If you're going for a fairly realistic game with not-so-exceptional heroes, then I'd recommend mostly 8-12's, but also enough 13's to allow for some differentiation, and even a few higher stats, maybe one PC per group with an 18+ in one stat. For a fairly realistic game with truly exceptional heroes, I'd allow plenty of 13-15's, and a few 16-20's. For cinematic or other unrealistic games, I'd try to keep stat inflation from destroying differentiation, but otherwise plenty of 18-20's are fine, and even a few 21+'s can be allowed, because many "normal" fictional heroes can perform superhuman feats.

Re: Playing with SPD and time I have become more accepting of the abstract nature of the speed chart in my old age*, though there are still things that bug me about it now and then, especially when I try to run a more realistic campaign. If you (or the friends you're trying to convert) are not so accepting of this, then I think you're proposal is fine. It just might be more trouble than it's worth. If you want people to act more often, you might choose to make higher speeds routine. Higher speeds is not without its consequences, but they work in Champions, and can be made to work in heroic level games. The two advantages I see over your proposal are: (1) You don't have to mess around with adjusting the velocities of vehicles, animals, etc, and (2) Higher speeds allow for more subtle variations. The relative jumps from 4 to 5 to 6 are only about half those from 2 to 3 to 4. If you do choose to boost speeds all around, then this could be by changing the base speed to 3+DEX/10 as suggested above, or by simply buying up the speeds of most NPC's and expecting PC's to do the same (with or without a grant of extra points to do it). You might also consider compromising by making base speed 2+DEX/10, (so plain ol' folk have 3 speeds) and expecting PC's to buy speeds of 4-6 (or higher). You could set the NCM for speed to 6 or 8 or even remove it. * Actually, since I mostly played D&D in the early '80's before finding Champions, I was initially very accepting (one action per few seconds sure beat one per minute). It was during much of the '90's that I was least accepting -- though I still have seen nothing that I like better.

Re: SPD Standards First off, I'd say I'm not sure there's one unique best way to deal with this issue. But that said, here's my 2 cents. It seems to me that in traditional superhero comics, just about every super who's not made out to be a joke acts at least as often as very highly trained normals*. So I'd recommend that 4 speed be a virtual minimum for supers in a standard Marvel-type game. Furthermore, plenty of Marvel characters appear to act at least twice as often as trained agent-types, so speeds of 6-8 should not be exceptionally rare. Add to these considerations pragmatic considerations that might lead one to prefer high super-to-normal speed ratios but not too high of a highest-speed-PC-to-lowest-speed-PC ratio, and I would recommend something along the lines of most PC's being in the 4-6 speed range, with perhaps a rare 7, 8, or higher (if the conception fits and the player is capable of making quick decisions and can be counted on not to steal too much of the limelight). *Though in Marvel and other comics there are heroes and villains who supposedly have no super powers but who act A LOT more often than other highly trained "normals". I believe these characters should be modelled with speeds in excess of 4.

Re: How does this grab you?

Re: How does this grab you? I'll buy that

Re: How does this grab you?

Re: How does this grab you?

Re: Limitation Boondoggles? You're welcome. When I first skimmed that thread, I wasn't clever enough to see the applicability of this issue to it, and I just never got sucked into reading very far.

Re: Limitation Boondoggles? Since I think the rules as written work pretty well most of the time, and consider the problem to arise only with regard to a limited number of limitations, I would not want to apply your approach in general. However, for "special" limitations and advantages, I would want to take something like your approach (see below).

Re: Limitation Boondoggles? One more related point with a couple of examples and then I'll shut up for the night. Some limitations seem (almost?) like they ought to affect the active points of a power and thus ought to be applied separately to the power. Arguably, the "only vs. wood" limitation on the RKA's above is such an example. I would also be tempted to put "Reduced Penetration" in this category. But particularly Clear examples are the entangle limitations "Entangle Has 1 BODY" and "No Defense". It's not that I think these limitations should be given larger values in general, it's that I think they should have a similar effect on the cost of powers regardless of what other limitations those powers have. (And, at least in the case of the entangle limitations, I'm inclined to think they should make the powers easier to dispel (suppress, drain, etc.). Whaddaya think?

Re: Limitation Boondoggles? The discounting of the real point value of multiple limitations came up earlier. I think this often produces more-or-less the right result. But sometimes it feels entirely wrong. Here's one example (based on my difficulty designing a termite spell that didn't seem too expensive, though I've simplified it for the sake of discussion). Spell A: 4d6 RKA, straight up (60 real points) Spell B: 4d6 RKA, only vs. wood (-2; 20 real points) Seems reasonable enough to me. The termite spell costs only 1/3 as much as the flame bolt or whathaveyou. Now consider: Spell C: 4d6 RKA, OAF, 4 charges, gest. & incant., gradual effect - 1 minute (-3; 15 real points) Spell D: 4d6 RKA, OAF, 4 charges, gest. & incant., gradual effect - 1 minute, only vs. wood (-5; 10 real points) This feels wrong to me. Now the termite spell costs 2/3 as much as the flame bolt or whathaveyou. I say it "feels" wrong because I'm not sure I can articulate what is bothering me here and I'm not certain it's worse than other examples of compounded limitations. However, I think the issue is roughly this: many limitations seem like less of a big deal when piled on top of others (e.g., extra END or concentrate on a spell with lots of extra time that you're only going to use in situations of relative leisure), but other limitations (e.g., only vs. wood) seem to limit a power more fundamentally, almost regardless of what other limitations are placed on it.

Re: Limitation Boondoggles?

Re: Limitation Boondoggles? I disagree vehemently. Good GM's can disagree about what rights they have regarding many matters, including this one.

Re: Lost in a crowd Add me to the shadowing camp. It's the first thing that came to my mind when I read the thread's title, and it's still my preference. Depending on how amazing you want the ability to be and GM judgement, anything from 17- to 28- or better might be appropriate.

Re: How does this grab you? My group and I have generally made the same mistake that you have: allowing continuous squeeze damage without a new attack roll. In most respects, I think the official rules make more sense than our mistake. However, your point about grabbing someone by the throat is a good one (grabbing a weapon or the hand that holds it is another example). Now, if I have this right (without looking at 5ER), it's not harder to maintain a hold on a neck than an arm, but it's harder to continue to damage it. How about this for a house rule? When trying to squeeze a location already grabbed, location modifiers do not apply. You could also (or instead) give an OCV bonus to the attacker only to do squeezing damage to the same location. Furthermore, if you want to get fancier, you could say that an otherwise unsuccessful breakout attempt has a chance of shifting a hold from a specific location to a general grab.

Re: Help Me Populate A Creepy Hotel So Al Hazred, what can you tell us about this hotel in terms of size, location, cost, etc. Obviously, the rest of us can use ideas from this thread without accepting your version of the hotel, but I'm still curious about it. How big is the hotel? How many floors? Rooms per floor? Where is the hotel? Big city? Small city? Town? What kind of neighborhood? How close to downtown? to the edge of town? How old is it? Has it been extensively restored? Have there been any wings added (or demolished)? Is it expensive, cheap, or middle of the road? How clean is it? What (if anything) do mainstream travel guides say about it?

Re: Help Me Populate A Creepy Hotel Another 13th floor option, one that can be explained entirely in mundane terms, but which allows for various possibilities: The elevators have no 13th floor button (and no 13 light above, where the current floor is indicated), but observant passengers will note a lag time between 12 and 14. Rarely, someone watching the floor indicator will note see the 14 light up, then go dark for a minute before the 12 lights up. There is a 13th floor, and it can be seen from the outside, but the guestrooms are no longer used since . . . something happened. There might be a 13th floor button in a service elevator, and the 13th floor might be used for storage, but most staff avoid it, especially at night. Another possible way in is by stopping the elevator between floors and manually openning it. If one takes the stairs, the door might be simply locked, or it might be walled off altogether. Note that this idea can be combined with others, such as the 13th floor button appearing at midnight.

Re: Help Me Populate A Creepy Hotel One wouldn't think it would be necessary to censor the title of a children's show, but I guess one can't be too careful . . .

Re: Help Me Populate A Creepy Hotel Band-Aid Guy In his early thirties, very thin and unhealthy-looking, he has numerous small scars, scabs, and sores, especially on his hands and forearms. His largest and most recent injuries are not-quite covered by large band-aids. These are all the more obvious because he is a black man and the band-aids are the typical white-person's-skin color. The wounds glimpsed underneath might looks like bites, scratches, circles, or whatever the GM desires. He leaves his room frequently, but when doing so looks nervous and hurried. He never stays out long; his most common reason for leaving is to go to the nearest fast-food place (it's cheaper than room service). There, he orders a value-meal, paying mostly with change and possibly a crumpled $1 bill or two. As he briskly walks back to the hotel, he voraciously devours the fries, hamburger bun, lettuce, tomatoes, and pickles. By the time he's back in the hotel, on his way to his room, he's licking the condiments from the hamburger. He'll then look longingly at the burger and, after a moment's hesitation just might nibble at its edges or even take one guilty bite before re-wrapping it and entering his room. Oh, and Mrs. Jones down the hall swears she once saw him pick up a dead pigeon off the sidewalk and put it in his pocket before returning to the hotel.

Re: Help Me Populate A Creepy Hotel The Painter: I don't have a clear mental picture, but she's probably unattractive. Her paintings are mainly of people in the hotel (guests, staff, etc.). They are moderately realistic in style and display genuine but unexceptional talent. The paintings are interesting for what they appear to reveal about their subjects. Some might portray guests or staff as angels, devils, or robots. Others might show them as perpetrators or victims of horrible crimes. At least a few are accurate (whether prophetic or historical). One might reveal something about a PC that seems to be evidence that she entered his room -- or maybe something she shouldn't be able to know even then. She freely admits that she is using people in the hotel as her models, but otherwise regards the subjects of the paintings as stuff she just makes up. "Yeah, this one's Bill in room 302. You know how he has that patch over his eye. Well I thought it would be fun to show him feeding his eyeball to a venus flytrap". Edit: I was initially thinking she's middle-aged and dumpy. But now I'm thinking she might be a younger art student who seems almost absurdly clean-cut, innocent, and mainstream except for her paintings. She might also be cheerful and upbeat to the point of being annoying.

Re: Help Me Populate A Creepy Hotel The Observer: White male, about 40 y.o., smallish, with thick glasses that make his eyes look huge. The Observer is frequently found wandering the hallways, looking for anything that he might find interesting, even trying doors of closets or other guest's rooms. He is not remotely subtle, at least not unless he learns to fear those he is observing. He shows few if any signs of comprehending spoken language, and seems equally fascinated by people, rats, and roaches (for example). He does not speak, except maybe to himself. His minimal communication with staff is through hand-written notes that he leaves for them. (Know one sees him write these notes, and he never directly hands them to anyone).

Re: Sci-fi wear swords?