Making Sense out of Senses in 6E

[Christopher]

Senses, Enhanced Senses, Clairsentience, Sense Groups, Unusual Group, Sense affecting powers. Not exactly one of the easier parts of Heroes.

We seem to have a lot of new posters and a lot old misconceptions floating around. Time to deal with both.

 

Sense Groups, Enhanced Senses and Sense Affecting Powers:

Every character has all 6 Sense Groups (Sight, Hearing, Touch, Smell/Taste, Mental, Radio), but he does not nessesarily have a Sense inside that group. Most Characters lack Mental and Radio Group Senses, for example.

The Unusual group could be seen like the 7th Sense Group, but it does not work like any other. I prefer the term "Independant" Sense as that fits a lot better.

Sense Affecting Powers allways affect a whole Sensegroup by default, but can be limited/specifically build to affect less. The cost of that Sensegroup depends on how likely that Group is used for Targetting Senses and as such is Campaign Dependant.

 

That a Sense is listed as "Unusual" in the book does not mean you can not assign it to a Sense Group. Quite the opposite, as most of them have a obvious Sense Group to assign them too (Active Sonar to Hearing Group, Radar to Radio Group, etc.). Merely the counter case (like putting Night Vision into the Smell Group) is hard to define and thus not inherently allowed. If you put a Enhanced Sense into a existing Sense Group, you get a bunch of Free Sense Modifiers according to that group.

If the Enhanced sense needs some of those Modifiers, you do not have to pay for them twice and can reduce the cost accordingly.

The downside is that it is affected by all Sense Affecting powers targetting that Sense Group. Generally free Sense Modifiers and the likelyhood of running into a specific Sense Affecting Power are equal.

 

Sense Groups and unusual Senses:

Unless notied otherwise, a Sense Affecting Power affects all senses assigned to that Group.

Image (Sight) would affect IR perception put into the SIght Group, even if the attacker does not have that sense and had no idea he had to fake on that spectrum. In this case it is the defenders fault for wanting to save points.

 

Sense Affecting vs (almost) all variants:

At GM option, the player can buy a Sense Affecting Power to all versions of a specific Sense. Sense-Affecting Power (Infrared Perception) would affect nearly every build of that power - no mater wich of the sense groups it is assigned too.

As I read it this would not affect ones bought as Independant Sense, however that part of the rule is not clear.

 

Independant Senses, Cost and Sense Affecting Powers:

Each Independant Sense is "a group of it's own". You can not buy sense Modifiers or Sense Affecting Powers for the Unusual Group as a whole. Modifiers have to be bought per Independant Sense.

Sense Affecting Powers have to be bought per Sense and cost like a whole Targetting Sense Group for each Independant Sense.

That makes them incredibly expensive, but also really hard to counter.

It is unclear if Active can be taken for Independant Senses, due to the lack of likely Perceivers (it is supposed to be a combination of Advantage/Disadvantage).

 

Targetting:
There is no mention of "Blindness" in the rules. Instead the book speaks of the following 3 states:
Being able to Perceive with a (ranged) targetting Sense.

Being able to Percieve with a Ranged non-targetting sense.

Being ablt to percieve via touch or other unranged Sense.

As the usual Targetting Sense is Normal Sight (Part of the Sight Group), that means "being unable to perceive with Targetting Sense" is the codeword for "Blind". But it also applies to less usual targetting Senses fully.

 

Clairsentience Targetting Limitation:

By default you can not target through a Clairsentience Perception Point. For all intents you are considered using a Non-Targetting Sense, even if it is Clairsentience (Sight). In order to Target through Clairsentience you need to buy Targetting for that Clairsentience on top of the original targetting Sense.

 

Multiple Targetting Senses:
The book advises that after the 2nd targetting Sense, further Targetting sense should be reduced in cost. The pricing is primarily there for shifting your Targetting Sense or adding another one.

Latest at the 3rd the cost might go overboard.

 

Selling back Senses:

In 5E making a Daredevil like Character (Blind, but Spartial Awareness in Hearing Group or as Independant Sense) was ineffective - you took a complication, then bought the sense.
With 6E rules for "selling back" Senses have been added. That makes it a lot cheaper to shift the Targetting Sense around. However it does till cost some points due to the lack of Free Sense Modifiers and the fact that you are immune to any Sense Affecting Power aiming for normal Targetting Sense Group.

It is not clear if you sell back the Sense or the whole Sense Group (making you unable to assign other Enhanced Senses to it).

 

Important Sense Modifiers and rules:

Sense - without that using the Sense is a Standart Action. With it, it becomes passive.

Discrimination - This defines if you can keep Sense Impressions appart. If hte character can tell "who is who". "Partially Discriminatory" is not properly defined in 6E, but given as a flawed version assigned to most default sense. You may need Skill or Preception checks to keep stuff appart.

Ranged - Without this, you have to touch the other party. Wich will subject you to Damage Shields and the other side Touch Sense.

Passive - With passive Detecs you look for emission or relfection of the Sense impression. "Walking" emits sound, whereas eveyrthing in the light of the sun/artificial light reflects said light (wich an be considered a form of emission too, because it is so common).

Active - You actively send something out and perceive the Reflections. The downside is that anyone with a passive Detect in that Sense Group might be able to see you. You are making a lot of noise. Example: Active Sonar, Active Radar (passive Radar is becomming a thing).

Transmit - In addition to perceive impression, you can actively send impressions. This allows you to convey information via that Medium. It is not a Sense-Affecting Power and not Active. Think C3PO making sound effects to the story he explains the Ewoks.

 

"What does build Y do":

Generally providing a build and asking what it does is a flawed question for Hero. We need to at least know what your intention was and extracting that from the Power Build is not always possible.

This especially applies to Sense Builds. Hopefully with this you are able to better Formulate what you want your Sense to do, what Sense Group to assign it too, etc.

 

Intereesting Examples:
Walkie Talkie:
This is build as "Radio Perception, also affected as Hearing Group" on a Focus.

 

Light:

A bit of a expensive build in Hero, has to be done as "Images(Sight)" using the rules to make the perception clearer (rather then faking another one).

One possible Houserule I came up with was buying a Active brother to the "Normal Sight" Detect build.

 

Tracking Bug:

Images (Radio Preception). Basically you use the "light" build and just switch it over to the Radio Group.

 

SD Radar:

One of the first ever Shipbased Air Radar was the SD Radar. It is a classical example of a "non directional" Ranged Sense.

 

Encrypted Communication:

Here two ways a possible:

First is to consider each "Encryption" a Language and allowing a Language VPP.

The oher more canonical one is to move "Mind Link" to another Sense Group (like Radio). Telepathy targetting that Sense (Group) is needed to intercept, per the usual Mind Link/Telepathy rules.

[eepjr24]

Selling back Senses:

In 5E making a Daredevil like Character (Blind, but Spartial Awareness in Hearing Group or as Independant Sense) was ineffective - you took a complication, then bought the sense.

With 6E rules for "selling back" Senses have been added. That makes it a lot cheaper to shift the Targetting Sense around. However it does till cost some points due to the lack of Free Sense Modifiers and the fact that you are immune to any Sense Affecting Power aiming for normal Targetting Sense Group.

It is not clear if you sell back the Sense or the whole Sense Group (making you unable to assign other Enhanced Senses to it).

I don't see why it is unclear? You sell back "Normal Sight" (a subset), not "Sight Group". Does not seem to leave much room for murkiness?

 

 

Light:

A bit of a expensive build in Hero, has to be done as "Images(Sight)" using the rules to make the perception clearer (rather then faking another one).

One alternative I came up with was buying a Active Brother to the "Normal Sight" Detect build.

Since you are trying to get rid of misconceptions, you should note when you are talking about house rules and opinions instead of RAW. Active or Transmit for sight is not a legal (by RAW) way to create light.

[Christopher]

I don't see why it is unclear? You sell back "Normal Sight" (a subset), not "Sight Group". Does not seem to leave much room for murkiness?

 

 

Since you are trying to get rid of misconceptions, you should note when you are talking about house rules and opinions instead of RAW. Active or Transmit for sight is not a legal (by RAW) way to create light.

Selling back Normal Sight is worth 35 points. But after that "the Sight Sense Group provides the following Sense Modifers: Discriminatory, Range, Sense, Targeting"

Everything interesting about Normal Sight is part of the Sight Group. And it means that somehow the Sight Detect build alone (before Sense Modifiers) is worth 35 points. In order to get there, you would have to build every color as "extra thing to detect".

 

I could get 35 points from selling back normal sight.

Then I put Spartial Awareness in there. I can substract Targetting (10 points) and Sense (2 points), wich reduces the cost to 20.

-15 points for having spartial awareness with partial Discriminaton and Range as targetting sense instead of Sight? Something her does not add up.

Unless you sold back the entire group, that math will not add up for me.

 

Regarding point 2:

"Another idea I came up with[...]" was the exact wording. Does that not say "house rule" strongly enough?

[eepjr24]

Selling back Normal Sight is worth 35 points. But after that "the Sight Sense Group provides the following Sense Modifers: Discriminatory, Range, Sense, Targeting"

Everything interesting about Normal Sight is part of the Sight Group. And it means that somehow the Sight Detect build alone (before Sense Modifiers) is worth 35 points. In order to get there, you would have to build every color as "extra thing to detect".

 

I could get 35 points from selling back normal sight.

Then I put Spartial Awareness in there. I can substract Targetting (10 points) and Sense (2 points), wich reduces the cost to 20.

-15 points for having spartial awareness with partial Discriminaton and Range as targetting sense instead of Sight? Something her does not add up.

Unless you sold back the entire group, that math will not add up for me.

 

Regarding point 2:

"Another idea I came up with[...]" was the exact wording. Does that not say "house rule" strongly enough?

Sorry that the math does not add up for you, but the wording is still very clear. Steve does not explain the reasoning behind costing, so you'll just have to use what is there or house rule it to something you like better.

 

Apparently not or I would not have said something. There are almost always more than one way to build things in Hero. I try to be specific when something is a house rule to prevent just the kinds of "misconceptions floating around" that you started this thread to clear up. YMMV.

 

- E

[Christopher]

Sorry that the math does not add up for you, but the wording is still very clear. Steve does not explain the reasoning behind costing, so you'll just have to use what is there or house rule it to something you like better.

I fixed that part of content too "Possible Houselrule".

 

That leave the pricing discussion over. It does not even go into Houserule territory.

Among the rules 0 of the Hero System (in the Hero System Phylosophy) it is written "this book is not perfect. The GM is allowed to overrule everything written in the book when he thinks game balance and fun are in danger". If the math does not add up, that is a pretty clear sign.

Furthermore: "A limitation that is not limiting is not worth any point" and "Complication that is not Complicating is not worth any points". Anybody here doubting it applies to sellbacks as well?

 

Do you really think you would not have to override this build or think of ways how that is less powerfull the normal sight?

Seeing the world with different eyes.

-35 Selling Back Normal Sight

+10 Detect (Colors and Shapes), Simulated Sense Rule (Sight).

?

 

Even if I use a 10 point detect to "detect Colors" and add the ability to "detect shape" and "detect distance" (both a feature of stereo-optic vision wich should be shared by everything else you put into the sight group), I can not get close to 35.

In turn if I asume a 10 point detect and calculate what the Sense Group Modifiers are worth I come out at way more then 35. Detect, Targetting and Range alone clock in at 40.

[Lucius]

Does not seem to leave much room for murkiness?

 

There's always room for murkiness.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says murkiness often has a whole suite

[Christopher]

There's always room for murkiness.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says murkiness often has a whole suite

Collorary:

If the water is not yet murky, you simply did not dive deep enough yet.

[eepjr24]

I fixed that part of content too "Possible Houselrule".

 

That leave the pricing discussion over. It does not even go into Houserule territory.

Among the rules 0 of the Hero System (in the Hero System Phylosophy) it is written "this book is not perfect. The GM is allowed to overrule everything written in the book when he thinks game balance and fun are in danger". If the math does not add up, that is a pretty clear sign.

Furthermore: "A limitation that is not limiting is not worth any point" and "Complication that is not Complicating is not worth any points". Anybody here doubting it applies to sellbacks as well?

 

Do you really think you would not have to override this build or think of ways how that is less powerfull the normal sight?

Seeing the world with different eyes.

-35 Selling Back Normal Sight

+10 Detect (Colors and Shapes), Simulated Sense Rule (Sight).

?

 

Even if I use a 10 point detect to "detect Colors" and add the ability to "detect shape" and "detect distance" (both a feature of stereo-optic vision wich should be shared by everything else you put into the sight group), I can not get close to 35.

In turn if I asume a 10 point detect and calculate what the Sense Group Modifiers are worth I come out at way more then 35. Detect, Targetting and Range alone clock in at 40.

Again, you disagree with the points assigned to an ability, that does not mean the rule is not clear. Change it if you don't think it is justified. Personally I would not allow sight to be built with a single 10 point detect. Using examples from the book, Detect Physical Objects is 10 points (Spatial Awareness). That does not detect color or reflected light (for reading or watching TV for instance) just the physical properties of the object. Without some form of discriminatory you could not tell two people of roughly the same height and build apart. You'd also need partially penetrative so you could perceive through glass and water. 

 

All of this is besides the point though, since you are talking about is just attempting to point shave. I don't care what justification a player as for that, I just nix it. If you want to rebuild something like sight in a different sense group, feel free. If you want to limit your sight, take a Physical Complication to represent that (does not perceive color, cannot see through transparent objects, whatever). I'm not Steve, I can't tell you what he was thinking when he costed it, but I have not found it overpowered or an unreasonable amount of points to sell back sight. Players are not rushing to sell it back and buy a different sense. So it seems pretty balanced to me even if I don't know the exact math behind it. I need more justification than "the math does not add up for me" to call something unbalanced.

 

- E

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah Transmit is a bit unclear in some ways; how is it different than images?

[Christopher]

Yeah Transmit is a bit unclear in some ways; how is it different than images?

Images allows you to fool someone.

Transmit not.

 

Or at least not usually:

Aside from C-3PO a clear example for Transmission on Voice is Micheal Winston and his character from Police academy & Spaceballs:

However it was always clear he was making the noises. Except for comedic effect where he propably added Ventriloquism to the effect. Or the person being foolwed was really low INT.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Its got to be more significant than that.  Images doesn't necessarily have to fool someone, the perception modifier could just be how easy it is to perceive at range, etc.  They seem to be a real crossover.  Basically "Transmit" is an attempt to break the old radio receive and transmit sense into a more broadly applicable powers, but I'm challenged to think of a single one other than radio that isn't just images.

 

In any case, the ability to make noises with your mouth isn't a sense modifier.  Everyone can do that unless they buy a complication: mute.  The ability to make other noises and copy them is a skill called mimickry.  

[Christopher]

Its got to be more significant than that.  Images doesn't necessarily have to fool someone, the perception modifier could just be how easy it is to perceive at range, etc.  They seem to be a real crossover.  Basically "Transmit" is an attempt to break the old radio receive and transmit sense into a more broadly applicable powers, but I'm challenged to think of a single one other than radio that isn't just images.

 

In any case, the ability to make noises with your mouth isn't a sense modifier.  Everyone can do that unless they buy a complication: mute.  The ability to make other noises and copy them is a skill called mimickry.  

Some abilities are beyond skills - they have about the same effect, but without the Skill vs Skill contest to detect them. They are mostly infallible versions of the skills.

Inivisibility (Sihgt+Sound) is beyond Stealth.

Shape Shift Sight + Sound with Immitation adder is beyond Mimicry and Disguise.

 

That all being said finding a use for Transmission that is worth the cost is realy hard. Maybe it is the ability beyond mimicry.

Maybe C-3PO and Michael Winston only have Mimicry and in C-3PO's case even on very low levels? 3PO must only immitate sounds without fooling anyone. Droids in Star Wars are not supposed to fool anyone or even lie to anyone. The same way Stargate Asgard Hologramms are usually designed to appear clearly artificial (this is in part also a screen effect).

 

Uses for Transmission on Hearing/Voice I could think off:

- You can perfectly imitation voices (like Shape Shift with Imitation).

Unlike with Images the voice must still emenate from you, however.

Also unlike Shape Shift (Sound with Imitation), it can not hide your natural sounds. You can imitatite the sound of you wearing stiletto's, but it will not hide your actually walking sounds

- if aliens have unusual speach aparatusses (like klicking sounds for Insects), Mimicry and Transmission allow you to speak them in the first place. You may be able to understand them (and they you), but truly speaking in that one requires a good imitation of the speaking aparatus.

 

Alternative approaches to deal with it:

Simply disallow Transmit for Hearing Group altogether.

 

The original purpose was for Radio where humans normally do not have any ability to be active, intelligible source.

This can also be expanded to Sight (biolimonousence), Smell (Pheromon communication), Touch/Taste (you can have Brailee written on your skin or your kisses taste like a thousand different fruits in sequence).

But in the Hearing Group and many cases of Mental Group you already have transmission abilities inherently (one of the APG's even deals with Flashing your "Mental Voice" for Telephaty and Telepathic commands and your real Voice).

 

That would mean Transmit allows you to use unusual communication channels that might also use unusual langauges. Military in Films often use a sign langauge to avoid being heared or have the transmission sound audibly intercepted. But since you still need to see the other person, that would not be a case for transmission.

 

In Shadowrun the ability to communicate using Subvocalisation via Throath Microphones and Radio links is very common among runner teams.

 

So yes, figuring out uses for Transmit for anything but Radio group is really, really hard. Maybe even impossible altogether. It was never designed for that and might need 1-2 itterations before we find the generalised description for it that makes sense for any other Sense Group

[Hadmar von Wieser]

Senses, Enhanced Senses, Clairsentience, Sense Groups, Unusual Group, Sense affecting powers. Not exactly one of the easier parts of Heroes.

We seem to have a lot of new posters and a lot old misconceptions floating around.

Bump - to keep Christopher's introduction thread active and detectable for usual senses.